Affirmative action before the SCOTUS today

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,323
15,121
136
I think their answer is that reversed bias is still bias. Still wrong.
It would be a simplistic view of a complex issue. Thereby arriving at the wrong conclusion.

I can narrow it down that way, because I felt it for a long time. That was my answer.
It was only a modern examination of the core issue, and of human nature, that I arrived at a need to counter balance our inherent bias. My answer is to shove bias in the other direction. A little bit.

But moreover, the true answer is we need to balm the wound of jealousy people feel when others have an advantage. And I am not talking about minorities being jealous of the majority. Rather, I speak of the jealously the majority feels when anything is given to a minority. Anything at all. We feel this because being a majority does not matter, we still compete in the rat race. We want more, we need more. Anything that is not ours... is ours to seize for the betterment of our position. To see anyone else get something is to poke our wound. It is to belittle our pain and to ignore our plight. Do we not also bleed?

The solution for affirmative action is to reach the hearts of men. To do that our society must be changed from the ground up. The rat race must end. Our pain must end. Basic Income (and housing, and healthcare) are all things we need to do to improve our temperament and sooth the savage beast that is mankind. Or no matter how hard you try, laws will be broken and societies will crumble, before we allow anyone else to get what we deserve.

Sometimes you amaze me and fill me with hope (every once in a while though, the opposite happens buts it’s increasingly rare).

To add to your comment. We’ve been conditioned for so long that we are the problem and that we don’t deserve certain things other countries have already figured out. The breaking of that mentality is what’s required in order for this country to progress and experience its next golden age.

Until then, it’s basically everyone for themselves and “I don’t care who gets hurt, if it someone is getting something I can’t get then I don’t want anyone to have it”.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,598
12,727
146
Sometimes you amaze me and fill me with hope (every once in a while though, the opposite happens buts it’s increasingly rare).

To add to your comment. We’ve been conditioned for so long that we are the problem and that we don’t deserve certain things other countries have already figured out. The breaking of that mentality is what’s required in order for this country to progress and experience its next golden age.

Until then, it’s basically everyone for themselves and “I don’t care who gets hurt, if it someone is getting something I can’t get then I don’t want anyone to have it”.
They've also been convinced that rights are zero-sum, so if someone else is getting more rights or more equality, they're getting less. Brain worms, man. Brain worms.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,631
5,315
136
So is your answer to do nothing?
Don't know where you came up with that idea, I never said it. I don't think I ever mentioned a solution other than merit.
I would assume that if you want absolute racial equality in admissions your criteria would have to be population percentages. Then X%=X% and no one is over or under represented.
If you wanted to continue down the fairness path then each different division of people would be chosen through a lottery.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,803
10,341
136
Don't know where you came up with that idea, I never said it. I don't think I ever mentioned a solution other than merit.
I would assume that if you want absolute racial equality in admissions your criteria would have to be population percentages. Then X%=X% and no one is over or under represented.
If you wanted to continue down the fairness path then each different division of people would be chosen through a lottery.
Merit = money = race.

When you have more money for everything from childhood development to private schooling, tutoring, and test prep, you can essentially "buy" merit.

There's a reason SAT scores track with wealth.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,598
12,727
146
Merit = money = race.

When you have more money for everything from childhood development to private schooling, tutoring, and test prep, you can essentially "buy" merit.

There's a reason SAT scores track with wealth.
I'd love for us to come to a common realization that outside of a few rare circumstances, most humans are pretty average at most things that humans do, and the entire idea of merit is pretty pointless aside from a thing veneer for ego.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,631
5,315
136
Merit = money = race.

When you have more money for everything from childhood development to private schooling, tutoring, and test prep, you can essentially "buy" merit.

There's a reason SAT scores track with wealth.
Couldn't it be the opposite, that wealthy people are smarter?

I'd be fine with going straight up population percentage.
 

m8d

Senior member
Nov 5, 2012
635
1,022
136
I don't believe we can correct past discrimination by perpetuating current discrimination. All that's going to do is make a different group angry.
The greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action policies are white women, from college campuses to the American workplace. White women today are more educated and make up a bigger slice of the workforce due to decades of affirmative action policies.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,837
2,101
136
Resident ghoul, Stephen Miller, announces he has sent a warning letter to 200 law schools, threatening to sue if they continue to use affirmative action.

 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
Merit = money = race.

When you have more money for everything from childhood development to private schooling, tutoring, and test prep, you can essentially "buy" merit.

There's a reason SAT scores track with wealth.

Yeah, exactly.

So many factors go into it - childhood nutrition, parental pre-natal health and wellbeing, housing conditions (does a child have a quiet space to do homework?)...not to mention the way it all gets reinforced via culture - people, collectively, tend to make a virtue out of necessity, that is, they tend to learn to value whatever it is they have and devalue the things they don't, so if practical conditions make engaging in academic work particularly difficult the community as a whole will tend to devalue it.

And then on the other side of it, "merit" has a tendency to get defined as "whatever attributes the most privileged group tend to have". e.g. "high status" accents will be those that the high-status people have, and "good English" will be whatever form of the language the wealthier people tend to use.

It's why "meritocracy" is a concept that borders on meaningless. The very term was invented to describe something considered a bad thing in the first place. You can't have "equality of opportunity" unless you aim for "equality of outcome" - not least because one generation's outcomes are the subsequent generation's opportunities.

It was kind of darkly funny when during the pandemic the government decided to scrap exams and use an 'algorithm' to predict what exam results students would have gotten if exams had still gone ahead. And that algorithm, because it heavily weighted the school a child went to, effectively just assumed "wealthy white children will get better grades" and automatically accorded top grades to elite private school students by default, and failing grades to all working class students at 'bad' inner city schools.

A much quicker and easier way to achieve a pretty similar result to what the normal exam system gets anyway.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,805
29,556
146
Don't know where you came up with that idea, I never said it. I don't think I ever mentioned a solution other than merit.
I would assume that if you want absolute racial equality in admissions your criteria would have to be population percentages. Then X%=X% and no one is over or under represented.
If you wanted to continue down the fairness path then each different division of people would be chosen through a lottery.

I sitll don't understand why you guys swallow this notion that because Race is being used in the selection process, that it has eliminated merit from the selection.

It isn't. That's a complete lie and you should be able to get this, very easily: Everyone going through selection at this stage, has merit. You've got a 100 people with the same fucking merit, and 10 seats. Now you have to select.

Go.

I think you just prefer money and influence being the unfair biased selection model. That much is obvious to everyone.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,323
15,121
136
I sitll don't understand why you guys swallow this notion that because Race is being used in the selection process, that it has eliminated merit from the selection.

It isn't. That's a complete lie and you should be able to get this, very easily: Everyone going through selection at this stage, has merit. You've got a 100 people with the same fucking merit, and 10 seats. Now you have to select.

Go.

I think you just prefer money and influence being the unfair biased selection model. That much is obvious to everyone.

Yeah but if they rely on facts then how can they grow their outrage?
 
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Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,656
3,207
136
I sitll don't understand why you guys swallow this notion that because Race is being used in the selection process, that it has eliminated merit from the selection.

It isn't. That's a complete lie and you should be able to get this, very easily: Everyone going through selection at this stage, has merit. You've got a 100 people with the same fucking merit, and 10 seats. Now you have to select.

Go.

I think you just prefer money and influence being the unfair biased selection model. That much is obvious to everyone.
I'd just point out that prior to this ruling, money and influence had been reduced to "only" locking in about 30-50% of the Ivy League slots depending on how one counts it ~ the other half being fought over by everyone else, driven by a combination of merit, wealth, and diversity factors. (Net result, even with diversity factors, of only approximately 5% of admissions going to students from low-income families, compared to 30% of US population in this category. Middle class skipped over nearly as badly, with vast majority of slots going to the wealthy).

As I understand this ruling, they can still consider diversity factors as they do today, with the sole special exception now requiring the exclusion of racial/ethnic checkboxes as a factor (they still have complete discretion on how to weight personal essays, or option to include questions on how the prospective student has overcome adversity, just as examples of how they can partially work around the ruling).
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
I sitll don't understand why you guys swallow this notion that because Race is being used in the selection process, that it has eliminated merit from the selection.
Everyone that says this is telling the world that they can't even imagine that a minority could have merit.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,837
2,101
136
Couldn't it be the opposite, that wealthy people are smarter?

I'd be fine with going straight up population percentage.

Holy hell is that a stupid comment.

I'm not a fan of affirmative action, but understand why it is needed. Because of people like Greenman.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Imagine actually believing that being born into wealth automatically made someone a better person and then still calling yourself an American.
 
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