Affirmative Action good or bad?

[convex]

you think colin powell needed affirmative action to attain his post? oh oh, wait...he wasn't elected president was he? maybe we need affirmative action when voting for the president too, every 20 years at least 1 minority president... anyway, getting a job due to affirmative action, or getting a scholarship or grant on a basis of my race would disgust me. my parents are lower middle class and i do need money to go to school, i won't need a handout to pay for it. i work a damn near minimum wage job and live at home and my parents aren't too gungho on me going to school rather than working fulltime. what makes my black or asian or hispanic friends deserve special treatment over me?

 

[Raj]

your mere examples have no value as they only apply to one person or a small group,
and do not represent the whole of the minority.

btw: colin powell was gonna run for vice president not president.

 

[ApacheXMD]

<< how can you keep minorities suppressed for hundreds of years, and then suddenly expect them to be able to compete with the White majority who has centuries of advantage at there side. >>



Ok, by your logic, whites simply have an advantage.
i have the solution: cripple the whites. poke out their eyes so they can't see. so they can't compete as well for jobs
break their legs too
and expose them to brain rotting radiation, since they've had hundreds of years of advancement and evolution, they much be TONS better than minorities.


you still don't see the fallacy in your thinking?

-patchy

 

[Raj]

apache

I am not saying white people are smarter than coloered.

I am saying white people simply have more advantages on there side as us coloreds don't.

 

[convex]

i was just wondering if you were going to answer my question

 

[reitz]

Raj, you are so full of sh!t that it scares me. Did you ever actually stop and take a look at what affirmative action actually does to this country?

 

[reitz]

Raj, and what advantages do I have over you? I grew up poor, and my family had no money to help me pay for school. Meanwhile, some black friends of mine came from families with twice the income of mine, and yet they received scholarships based solely on the color of their skin. Because I am white, I didn't receive jack shit, and I had to take a year off from school because I could no longer afford it. They all graduated last May and are starting their careers. I'm stuck here working for peanuts until I can afford to go back to school.

Tell me again, what advantages do I have over you?

 

[Raj]

reitz, i am not gonna respond to you simply because you are not capable of an intelectual debate.
if you were you wouldn't have to resort to profanity to prove your point.
but, if you wanna take it there we can.

as far as you having advantages over me.

YOUR MERE EXAMPLES DON'T MEAN SH1T BECAUSE THEY ARE OF ONE PERSON OR A SMALL GROUP AND DO NOT FU*KIN REPRESENT THE MINORITIES AS A WHOLE.

and convex, i hope this answers your question.

 

[Moonbeam]

Raj, you can not put a colored head on a white body. These white boys have been born in privilage and don't know it or see it. If they could be turned black or brown for a while and see what that really means instead of blowing smoke up their arses, they would discover a whole world of subtile and not so subtile bias. It would make them sick and many would not find the inner fortitude to struggle against it. Eventually, demoralized and beaten, they and their families would be relegated to the gettos. If affermative action were reverse descrimination wouldn't it be cool for white people to live under it and have it shoved up their noses. You can see how even the hint of anybody getting even the slightest favoritism makes them scream and whine. Hehe.

But it really isn't reverse descrimination. That's just a lie to keep privilage a statis quo. Real affermative action is just extending a search for qualified minorities beyond the usual limits. It means going out and putting real effort into finding fully qualified and equal minorities. Quotas are another matter. They raise the ire of racists and those opposed to any consideration of race and you can't tell them apart. One hides behind the other. This causes me to be suspicious of all of them which isn't fair to people who truly only want to eliminate all consideration of race, a worthy goal. It gives the conservatives a chance to put down liberals as racists too, and hipocrites. What they always want to do though is pretend we are starting from equal places when they want to do away with discrimination. The guy in the slum is supposed to go on his SATs to get into Harvard. They don't want to pay reparations for slavery etc. Maybe they would prefer to have their cities leveled to ash. We are an American people and we will all rise together, or we will fall together. What makes for citizenry is having a stake. Somebody better pay attention.

 

[BoberFett]

Moonbeam

You're lucky I'm heading to sleep right now. I'll deal with you in the morning. Or whenever my pampered white ass decides to get up.

 

[reitz]

Okay, then on a whole, minorities have greater advantages than underprivilaged whites. They both come from poor financial backgrounds and are likely to receive a substandard education, yet the minority students have the advantages that affirmative action offers. What do the underprivileged white children have? Nothing.

Sorry for the profanity, but this is a subject that royally pisses me off. If I were black, I would have graduated this May from WVU, and I would have received a full scholarship. Because of the color of my skin, however, those opportunities were not available to me.

You claim to be a minority, so I can imagine how upset it makes you when you receive poor service in a restaurant or store because of the color of your skin. Imagine losing out on a job because of it. Imagine that the person hired was less qualified than you, and was offered the position only because the employer needed a 'hispanic female' to even out the workplace. How is that fair? How does that help anyone? Sure, there have been past attrocities committed against minorities, and only a moron would think that everything is perfectly equal now, but it does nothing but hurt our society.

Have you ever seen the reaction of the white person who was denied the job or scholarship to the black person? Have you ever sat with a group of white students who were filling out scholarship applications? I heard the word &quot;great person&quot; more often when I was a senior in high school than any other time. It's not right, it's not justified, but it's how people react.

What does affirmative action tell the white person? It tells us that we are not equal, and that minorities need that extra &quot;help&quot; in order to succeed. What does it tell the minorities? It tells them that white people are superior, and without that extra &quot;opportunities&quot; handed to them, they would not be able to compete. Deny it if you like, but it is the subtle truth. How does that help anyone?

I personally don't believe that anyone should receive anything based on race or ethnicity. How can we be equal when a large portion of the population is given special treatment?

 

[convex]

no, i son't think it does. unless you're saying my situation doesn't mean sh1t and that i'm just screwed because i'm not a &quot;minority&quot;. there's alot of poor whites (*gasp* the majority of the poor are whites) out there that don't get free rides in life.

 

[ApacheXMD]

i understand that some people really do have disadvantages in this world. A kid who has to live hungry in an environment with drugs and stray bullets will be disadvantaged. With that conceded...

Why not work on trying to solve the problem at the source? Instead of biases to try to make up for inequities, why not attack the inequities themselves?
Affirmative Action is merely a bandaid to a problem. It does nothing to remedy it.
It simply builds more barriers for everyone to overcome.

If affirmative action was simply the active seeking out of minorities, it wouldn't be so bad, but AA is flat out denying qualified people of services.

Isolated case: My highschool required good grades and and high standardized test scores for entry. Blacks and Latinos required a much lower score for admittance, whereas Asians and Whites were subject to much higher standards. Now, given that there is a finite number of places for incoming students, admitting Blacks and latinos with the lower qualifying scores denied Asians and Whites of those spots and a quality education. Then comes the question, did under-represented groups deserve the places more than the students who were denied entry?

You can say that, oh, it was the disadvantages caused lower scores and that they're equally qualified for positions, but you'll never know if you have double standards.

Bottom line, Affirmative Action gives services/scholarships/jobs/whatever to those who may or may not be qualified, because you're basing your decision on something other than the goal and intent of the service/scholarship/job/whatever.
And in doing so, you're denying the service to the more qualified.

-patchy

 

[reitz]

Moonbeam, not all &quot;white boys&quot; are &quot;born in privilage.&quot; I know what it's like to not have enough to eat, and my family knows the humiliation of public assistance. I have also had the opportunity to experience overt descrimination firsthand because of my race. I have been denied service in McDonalds because I was the only white person there. I have been threatened, cursed at, spat at, and mugged on public transportation because I made the mistake being the only white person on the bus. For four months I rode a packed bus across the city to work; I always sat alone with an empty seat next to me because the other riders would rather stand than sit next to &quot;that fscking cracker.&quot; I can't walk on the sidewalk of a busy street 4 blocks away after dark because &quot;my kind is not welcome there.&quot; When I get in line at the convenience store a few blocks away, I know I will always be the last to be waited on because of the color of my skin. I know what it is like to walk into a place and feel the stares because I &quot;don't belong&quot;.

I'm not trying to downplay any of the struggles that face minorities day in and day out; I'm only pointing out that it is possible for a non-minority to understand what descrimination really is, albeit on a smaller scale. Moonbeam, your comments are about the most ignorant I've read so far in this thread; do you even realize how much you are judging people based on race?

 

[searcher]

Moonbeam once again shows he is one of the few that has truly tried to understand the issue from a point of view other than his own.

Michael

 

[NOSOUP4U]

Moonbeam, Thank you. That was well put.

Bobberfett and Reitz, it is too easy to say all that you've said without ever considering how it would be like to wear the shoes of someone who is a minority.

 

[Moonbeam]

reitz, I hear the same story from every white person I talk to. I just substituted black for white to show how wrong stereotypes can be.
Come on reitz, tell me you don't know where the real attack on affermative action is comming from. Tell me it's not the Willie Horton freakout Republicans that use this issue to stir up the passions of people like you to vote Republican. Tell me it's not people in office that serve the powerful that want to keep their power. It's that kind of white a$$ I wanted to burn, people who manipulate the worst in us for their own political ambitions, not you. I'm a liberal don't forget. I think government should be used to make life better. I would go for free higher education and a stipend for good grades. In my world places like what you describe get buldozed under and rebuilt according to plans created in those free universities.

This issue gets people where they live, in their identity and sense of self worth. It's about comparison and privilage and exclusion. It's about seeing a small pie instead of a big one.

searcher, like calls to like. A tough enough issue rationally. I probably could have been less provocative. But BobberFett will be along to help reitz kneecap me soon. Had to get them charging fast enough to have a chance to dodge.

 

[Moonbeam]

NOSOUP, they should know hat it's like to be a mushroom. Oi!

 

[AfterBurn]

I see two groups evolving in this discussion: whites &amp; asians versus blacks &amp; hispanics.

Now, im not from the USA, and i hope i dont have to give Americans a history lesson, so i assume everybody knows the social 'status', or lack off, the asians had 150-200 years ago in the USA. As far as the whites were concerned in those days they were at the very bottom of the foodchain.

Right now everybody seems to put them at the same level as the whites, and personally i dont hear very much, if any, racial issues when it comes to asians. One could (and should?) ask: Why is this?

Maybe its because whites and asians have a thing in common: they dont let themselves be victimized that easy, not by themselves, nor by others. Raise the bar on an asian, and he will silently work harder, do the same for some other minorities, and they complain you raised it.

Its not a matter of race or money or social status or prejudice, its a matter of attitude. And too many people have the wrong one, and blame others for it.

To get back to the original question about affirmative action, i dont agree with it, at least not the way its implemented in the USA, or here in Holland (same way as with you guys). Affirmative action should be based on effort and ability. If someone shows he or she has those two things, and they cant afford to get the education they want, they should be helped. Not because they are black. Not because they are white. Not because they are Asian. Not because they are hispanic. They should be helped simply cause they want to do something and are able to do something, but they cant afford to do it without help. But then again, that wouldnt be affirmative action, it would be a good and positive system based on equality.

 

[pen^2]

I guess the current system based on acceptance rate aint gettin its job done very well. but dont you guys think there is something that has to be done? the rich gets richer, the poor gets poorer; education means more than monetary asset and there is an excessive unbalance of education here in the states today. I for one try not be engage in any of conversations regarding the Affirmative Action cuz everyone i talked to would stoop down to the individual level eluding the larger picture.

 

[PG]

Racism = wrong
Afirmative Action = racism
Afirmative Action = wrong

pretty simple issue

 

[Futuramatic]

Affirmative action is crap. Anti-discrimination laws - okay. However, the SOCIAL PROMOTION of people based SOLELY on their ethnicity is not in ANYONE'S best intersts. Some examples:

So I go in or an interview that I am more than qualified for. A (insert PC term for black - not to offend, I jsut do not knwo what the current one is) gentleman with the same qualifications also applies for the job. He should get the job becuase of the color of his skin?

As an employer, I find that I can only find 3 or 4 minorities that meet the qualifications to do a certain job, but my &quot;quota&quot; says I must have 12. I should lower my quality standards to admit more minorities (which if you do not know will adversly affect the business)?

I am up for a national scholarship. I have excellent grades, high marks on both the SAT and ACT. I have dedicated my life to social activities and volunteerism. In all regards, I am the best candidate for the scholarship. A minority whose qualification are less than mine (by whatever margin) is awarded the scholarship based on race?

This IS affirmative action. It is not based on merit. All my hard work, in any of the above situations, is worthless because the other candidates were minorities... no other reason.

Do you know the what hardest class of people to be today is? White males in the upper-middle class. No programs are available for them. No race-based programs (those would be discriminatory toward minorities), no financial aid for college based on need due to parents making a MODEST living. No programs based on sex (cause that would be discriminatory toward women). Yet minorities and women can have programs just for them, and it isnt discriminatory.

Edit: I was born to poor parents in a trailer park who could not get the the hospital because the car was broke down. THROUGH NOTHING OTHER THEN THEIR OWN HARD WORK my parents worked their way up, and now live a very good life. When it was time for me to go to college, I was told by ALL the career and school counselers that I was pretty much SOL because I was a male, white, and my parents had &quot;done well.&quot; Luckily, I had worked hard to keep my grades up and save money for college.

The morale? Hard work an perseverance will overcome almost any obstacle. I didn't get any hand outs, yet I put myself through college and earned a Master's degree. Don't tell me that someone else deserves my job based on anything other than merit.

 

[KarsinTheHutt]

I tend to agree with the Ward Connerly perspective. Yes, many minorities are at a disadvantage when it comes to education, etc. I think we should concentrate on improving the schools and neighborhoods of disadvantaged citizens rather than handing them contracts/acceptance letters and saying &quot;here's your compensation.&quot;

Besides, even if I were disadvantaged I'd like to know that I got a school acceptence or won a contract because I deserved it, not because of race.

Affirmative Action imo is big government's easy way out of the race issue and isn't the best way to solve discrimination.

Of course this is just my perspective and I am willing to listen to the other side as well.

 

[KidViciou$]

affirmative action is a good idea, but not always executed properly. here is how it works:

if a white person would like a minority scholarship, they can go to xavier, howard, morgan etc...

just a question, if one is really aiming for college, why not go there?

 

[Wangel]

Bad for all involved.