Affirmative Action good or bad?

[sandmanwake]

I don't know how many "minorities" have already responded to this thread, so as a "minority," I'm going to put in my two cents now. Put simply, I think affirmative action is bad. I'd rather get something based on my merits and hard work than on my race/color of my skin. In some ways, it's as bad as racisim because you're favoring the "minority", therefore discriminating against the "majority." I'm not for racism either mind you, I hate to not be able to get a job or get into school based on the color of my skin just as much as if I got in because of it. First of all, it's insulting. Are we trying to say that most minorities can't cut it without extra help? Even as a minority, I'm not getting much scholarship for college, since my parents are considered "well enough off". What I am getting, barely covers tution, and as we all know, there are other expenses associated with college, and I'm paying for all of it myself by the way. Am I bitter or whining that about how I should get more money since I'm an "underpriveldged" minority? No, I'm working full time every other semester and part time every semester to make ends meet. If a minority is being interviewed for a job, he or she should get hired purely based on skill and experience not because of some quota that must be met, and they shouldn't not get the job because of their skin color either. I'm reminded of a story about how this woman sued a fire department to be admitted into service because she claimed the physical exam was discriminatory against women. She won, so the exam standards were lowered so she and "more women" could get in. This is absurd, if she couldn't cut it, work harder and try again next time, there's no reason the public has to put up with a second rate fire department because she wanted to drive the shiny red engine. Anyway I'm babbling, and probably lost my point somewhere there.

 

[KidViciou$]

i have never benefitted from AA, nor have i been penalized by it. i have however experienced racism, it doesnt bother me, i just laugh and carry on

 

[Rogue]

Let me tell you of my first hand issue with AA. First off, I grew up in a diverse household. I have a step-sister of the same age as myself. We attended the same schools, lived in the same house under the same rules, grew up in the same neighborhood and ate the same food at the dinner table at night. I am caucasian, she is half Korean and half caucasian. Now, I had a higher GPA, was a better athlete (having competed at the state level in wrestling in California) and took Honors classes all through my schooling starting with Algebra in the fifth grade. Now, she was not as "gifted" as I was. School was easy for me, it wasn't as easy for her. This has nothing to do with race or upbringing/environment mind you. It is simply the way the cards are dealt genetically. Why then when it came time for college admissions did she get more money offered to her?

Also, someone made the comment that minority households don't emphasize education at home. How is AA going to possibly change that? That one requires lengthy explanation in my opinion.

 

[KidViciou$]

as a matter of fact, my entire family, as well as those other indian families i know would beat the shit out of their kids if they didnt go to college. my parents wouldnt beat my ass, just be MAD at me

 

[Moonbeam]

Rogue, I'm sure you forgot to mention how happy you were she got more money since you got more brains.

The conversation is about affermative action, not quotas. Real affermative action is an appropriate means of addressing an endemic tendency for birds of a feather to flock together. Diversity leads to competetive advantage and a more interesting life. The fact that the effort to redress one evil has been replaced with another, quotas, needs to be addressed. One thing is for sure. Show me the person who says, yup, they hired the other guy because he was superior. Hehe! Yea right. Hahaha.

 

[vi edit]

Should an application even contain the words "race", "ethnicity", or "religion"?

I think not.

AA simply forces an employer to hire a person based on "race" and "ethnicity" as opposed to "skills" and "achievements".

Both parties are being cheated.

 

[Rogue]

Moonbeam,

AA is all about quotas as it exists. We are not discussing future AA, we are discussing it as it exists now. As it exists now, it is still quota based. Explain to me why in the Army, there is a percentage allocation of minorities in officer positions? AA is all about quotas! Don't somehow try to downplay what I experienced on some "vision" of what you and your liberal beliefs allow you to see. I for one am certainly not blinded by a lack of "walking in another man's shoes" type of thinking. I grew up in the Army, probably one of the most diverse cultures someone could possibly live in. I have been to foreign contries and I have seen and suffered racism first hand, even being caucasian. AA is racism blanketed by politics and agendas.

 

[Raspewtin]

<< what are your views on affirmative action? >>



I haven't been following the thread, but my views are that as it is now, I am firmly against it, as a minority. These type of band-aids never solve real social issues. Inner city busing is an example of one of these types of band-aids. It didn't work, and neither does this. I believe minorities need more help from K-3rd grade as opposed to college. That would make a much larger difference (for complex boring developmental reasons; basically by college, it's too late to make significant social change in habits). I also feel it's a form of reverse discrimination against whites, although I'm a minority myself. If minorites get a handout in college, they won't get a handout in the job market. At UCLA where I went to school, there were a few excellent results from the affirmitive action program, but most were woefully underprepared for their post-college schooling and careers.



<< I grew up in the Army, probably one of the most diverse cultures someone could possibly live in. >>



Somehow I doubt that the Army helps to socially preserve and represent the unique cultures of those who work and live in the Army.

 

[Ne0]

Sometimes, taking out Affirmative Action actually hurts Caucasions. At Berkeley, when Affirmative Action was implemented; a lot of asian americans were denied admission because Berkeley already met the quota given by Affirmative Action on the amount of Asians allowed into the school. It was 20% asian, and Berkeley couldn't pass that number. A couple years later when they got rid of Affirmative action, and started judging based on merit- Berkeley exploded with many asians and now asians outnumber everyone else in the Berkeley-UC system.

 

[AvesPKS]

Well, I know one thing...I applied to Temple (a college that is 80% black), and I sure didn't get a minority scholarship. I live in an area of Chicago that contains masses of poor black, whites, hispanics, and others. Basically, on the ell (that's subway or metro for the rest of you), if you're going south and you're white, you don't go past the stop at the school. It's not even a good idea to get off by yourself at the one at the school. I can't tell you how many times I've felt threatened by a large group of undesirables riding the ell, or even just walking down the street.
I do not agree with someone getting a scholarship (or any advantage) based solely on their race. It's just unfair. And, as for those ghetto dwellers who are unable to advance themselves...well, why should I be punished for their inadaquacies? That's right, I shouldn't.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

The problem is that African American &amp; Hispanic kids are not held to the same standards as White &amp; Asian kids in K-12 public schools. Less is expected of them, so basically they have no reason to work up to their potential.

You can thank the bleeding hearts for this. It's almost as if they're TRYING to keep them down. Expect little and they will produce little. They'll barely graudate from High School, and rely on welfare or some other social assistance to get by. I wonder which party they'll be voting for? Hmmm...

 

[KidViciou$]

aves, why just one college? how good were your merits?

 

[KidViciou$]

i heard that they recently lowered the standards to get into army. i think that is crap, if you arent fit enough, then damnit i dont want you to defend me. if you arent smart enough, i dont want you to be the person to target bogies.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Here's a nice California example of what I'm talking about.

Prop. 24 (I think that's what it was), an initiative to reform the failing ESL (English as a Second Language program) in Public Schools. Basically, non-English speaking kids would go through a year or two (I don't know the specifics) of ESL, and then would be placed in regular classes.

Now, despite that fact that everyone knows the best way to learn a language is to be submersed in an enviroment where only that language is spoken, despite the fact that most hispanics in CA supported the initiative (as can be seen by the fact that it passed; hispanics have just recently become the majority here), the bleeding heart liberal fscks opposed it. Clearly a case of some &quot;great white saviour's&quot; thinking they know what's best for other people. Had it failed, hispanic kids would be stuck in the POS ESL program getting a dumbed down education. Since they'd probably need social assistance or would be working minimum wage after high school, I wonder which party they would be voting for. Hmmm...

 

[Ne0]

:|

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Affirmative Action good or bad? >>



Is slavery good or bad?

Both seek to accomplish the same thing.

 

[MooCow]

AA=reverse discrimination, when all is said and done that's exactly what it is. If it's good or bad? I don't think we'll ever get everyone to agree one way or the other.

 

[abracadabra1]

i dunno if its good or bad, but i think it's necessary to maintain stability, somehow

 

[ArMs]

Affirmative action is suck. I'm sure everyone rememberseveryone else bitchin' about equal rights. Well, if females and ethnic minorities are getting special treatment, that's not really equal now is it?

 

[Moonbeam]

Engineer, I believe it was great white saviors who pushed 24.

Tell me this. Do any of you think that if everybody were exactly equal in terms of ability, with all the rest of differences unchanged, do you think jobs would be filled equivalent to racial numbers. I don't think so, because the people doing the hiring don't recognize they are biased, even when they think they are not. Some kind of pressure has got to be applied as long as this unconscious prejudice remains. The ability to see it depends, very much on.....

 

[Tetsuo316]

I agree with you, Moonbeam. It's hard to look at the world through someone else's eyes, but you have done that and hopefully we can cause that in someone else.

I don't believe that Affirmative Action is the solution. It is flawed. It is not the answer. What it is, in my opinion, is a step in the right direction. I attend UC Berkeley. I am a third year, and also a member of the first class to attend Cal since the ban on AA. If you look at the admissions numbers from my admittance year and after versus the admissions numbers before the ban, you will see a radical difference. It's been a while, so I'm going to give you the rough percentages from memory, but I'll do a little research and give the concrete numbers later.

The percentage of African American students dropped roughly 50%.
The percentage of Latino students dropped roughly 50%.
The number of Native AMerican students dropped to sixteen. That's not &quot;dropped 16%,&quot; that's dropped to 16 students.
The percentage of Asian American students increased to roughly 40%.
The percentage of White students increased by a small percentage.

Again, these numbers are from memory, but they're not far off. This is at what US News and World Reports ranked the best public university in the nation. I'm not saying AA is the solution, but damnit, these drops are not right. This is racism in the admissions system, in the public school system, and in society as a whole. Racism is not just slanderous remarks and violence, it is also not providing a decent educational system that provides a base for people of all colors. Read some Jonathon Kozol (especially Death at an Early Age) before you talk about the lack of racism in our school systems.

 

[SUOrangeman]

I think a few of the replies here have been on point. But, just for clarity ...

What is the purpose Affirmative Action?
I have always believed that the purpose for AA was to *level the playing field* and NOT dictate how many winners there are in each group.

How has AA been implemented thus far?
Quotas. Since quotas typically dictates percentages of winners, it is not a true solution to inequality of any form. Unfortunately, those who *rightly* complain about the inequalities often benefit from quotas and thus keep quiet for a while. The problem of inequality remains unsolved.

How should AA be implemented to the benefit of *everyone*?
If I knew that, I'd be president.

I must give recognition to Dameon and Moonbeam for seeing the distinction between the AA ideal and the current-and-oft-failed AA solution of quotas. Very subtle points, but they are at the center of the matter.

Oh yeah, in terms of leveling the playing fields in the academic realm, throwing money at the problem doesn't do much either. I'm sure there are plenty of public schools that consistently outperform private schools (generally, more expensive).

-SUO

 

[Viper GTS]

While I haven't waded through this whole thread, this gem deserves comment:

and they deserve the extra advantage to help them get the education they deserve

Nobody deserves anything. I don't give a flying fvck if you're black, white, asian, mexican, green, or purple. You don't deserve what you haven't earned. Just because they're a &quot;minority&quot; doesn't mean they deserve it any more than any white kid under the same circumstances.

AA is a stinking pile of sh!t on the face of the American dream - equality.

Viper GTS

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Engineer, I believe it was great white saviors who pushed 24.

Nope, it was a republican backed initiative.

Tell me this. Do any of you think that if everybody were exactly equal in terms of ability, with all the rest of differences unchanged, do you think jobs would be filled equivalent to racial numbers. I don't think so, because the people doing the hiring don't recognize they are biased, even when they think they are not. Some kind of pressure has got to be applied as long as this unconscious prejudice remains. The ability to see it depends, very much on.....

I agree, however, AA is not the answer. It only perpetuates the problem.

 

[vi edit]

As it has been said by one or two - it isn't AA that needs to be revised, it's the education system that does. AA needs to be flat out dropped. AA is not a solution, it's a band-aid.

Fix the problem (poor education in inner-city schools) instead of just applying a very poorly implemented crutch to help hide a bigger issue.