After 4 months how come Rumsfield doesn't have any answers ?

[Mrburns2007]

As a person who voted for Bush in the last election. I find myself becoming frustrated that they don't seem to have any answers. When questioned by McCain, Rumsfield would not give a straight answer about whether or not the MP's where instructed by MI to use those kinds of techniques. I really doubt that a 21 year female soldier came up with those ideas herself.

The first investigation begin January 17 according to the millitary, that's the day they found 1000's photos and video's on a computer after being told were to look.

 

[NightCrawler]

I'd bet a donut they ordered the abuse when they wanted better Intel or they knew it was going on and looked the other way.

 

[Gravity]

Um, it's a very big operation. In the overall scheme of things, I'm sure that the prison ops were pretty far down the list of priorities. They were probably more focused on finding the terrorists that murdered the American contractors and burned and mutilated their bodies on camera.

I do believe, however, that somewhere in the chain, that someone dropped the ball. I doubt seriously that any of this abuse was "ordered". I'm thinking that it occurred without direction or approval. In either case, I'm also thinking that careers may be ending as a result of it.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think that war, the the mindset of war, the dehumanization that war brings and the suppressed feelings that surface in war make it impossible, generally, for those closely engaged in war to notice how closely they have come to resembling animals. Only when their behavior becomes apparent and compared to those at a distance do they notice anything odd. War is mass psychosis. From those who have given themselves over to insanity you shouldn't expect sane behavior. This is why those who prosecute illegal and unnecessary war like Bush did should be tried in the world court.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
War is mass psychosis.

 

[dbk]

Like he said, he's only seen the pictures a couple days ago. He underestimated how bad and damaging this was.

 

[burnedout]

After 4 months how come Rumsfield doesn't have any answers ?

Rumsfeld has the answers.

We call the answers (some of them, anyway) an AR 15-6 Investigation. The MI commander received a letter of reprimand. Not only is his career effectively over but he still faces further investigation that could result in other action against him.

2. (U) That COL Thomas M. Pappas, Commander, 205th MI Brigade, be given a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand and Investigated UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, US Army Intelligence Activities for the following acts which have been previously referred to in the aforementioned findings:

* Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command were properly trained in and followed the IROE.
* Failing to ensure that Soldiers under his direct command knew, understood, and followed the protections afforded to detainees in the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
* Failing to properly supervise his soldiers working and ?visiting? Tier 1 of the Hard-Site at Abu Ghraib (BCCF).

and

13. (U) I find that there is sufficient credible information to warrant an Inquiry UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, US Army Intelligence Activities, be conducted to determine the extent of culpability of MI personnel, assigned to the 205th MI Brigade and the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib (BCCF). Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability.

 

[Ozoned]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
War is mass psychosis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And the Us military is a bureaucracy,

It takes time..

 

[dmcowen674]

"After 4 months how come Rumsfield doesn't have any answers ?"

After 4 Years how come Bush doesn't have any answers ?

Fixed your Title for you.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think that war, the the mindset of war, the dehumanization that war brings and the suppressed feelings that surface in war make it impossible, generally, for those closely engaged in war to notice how closely they have come to resembling animals. Only when their behavior becomes apparent and compared to those at a distance do they notice anything odd. War is mass psychosis. From those who have given themselves over to insanity you shouldn't expect sane behavior. This is why those who prosecute illegal and unnecessary war like Bush did should be tried in the world court.

How can war be "insanity" when it has been an integral part of human nature and cultural behavior since the dawn of history and civilization?

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33


How can war be "insanity" when it has been an integral part of human nature and cultural behavior since the dawn of history and civilization?

because humans are insane. You can't really argue with that, history has shown it time and time again

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think that war, the the mindset of war, the dehumanization that war brings and the suppressed feelings that surface in war make it impossible, generally, for those closely engaged in war to notice how closely they have come to resembling animals. Only when their behavior becomes apparent and compared to those at a distance do they notice anything odd. War is mass psychosis. From those who have given themselves over to insanity you shouldn't expect sane behavior. This is why those who prosecute illegal and unnecessary war like Bush did should be tried in the world court.

How can war be "insanity" when it has been an integral part of human nature and cultural behavior since the dawn of history and civilization?

Insanity - repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different outcome each time.

 

[earthman]

Rumsfeld is the master of the non-answer? Ever listened to one of his press conferences? He says alot of words, but divulges very little information. In this situation, he really got caught with his pants down. It's amazing to me that something so explosive never got the attention of anyone who would have briefed him on it, even 5 months after the fact. Makes you wonder what they actually do at the Pentagon all day.

 

[mastertech01]

Originally posted by: earthman
Rumsfeld is the master of the non-answer? Ever listened to one of his press conferences? He says alot of words, but divulges very little information. In this situation, he really got caught with his pants down. It's amazing to me that something so explosive never got the attention of anyone who would have briefed him on it, even 5 months after the fact. Makes you wonder what they actually do at the Pentagon all day.

Not much..

The Pentagon is virtually a city in itself. Approximately 23,000 employees, both military and civilian, contribute to the planning and execution of the defense of our country. These people arrive daily from Washington, D.C. and its suburbs over approximately 30 miles of access highways, including express bus lanes and one of the newest subway systems in our country. They ride past 200 acres of lawn to park approximately 8,770 cars in 16 parking lots; climb 131 stairways or ride 19 escalators to reach offices that occupy 3,705,793 square feet. While in the building, they tell time by 4,200 clocks, drink from 691 water fountains, utilize 284 rest rooms, consume 4,500 cups of coffee, 1,700 pints of milk and 6,800 soft drinks prepared or served by a restaurant staff of 230 persons and dispensed in 1 dining room, 2 cafeterias, 6 snack bars, and an outdoor snack bar. The restaurant service is a privately run civilian operation under contract to the Pentagon.

Over 200,000 telephone calls are made daily through phones connected by 100,000 miles of telephone cable. The Defense Post Office handles about 1,200,000 pieces of mail monthly. Various libraries support our personnel in research and completion of their work. The Army Library alone provides 300,000 publications and 1,700 periodicals in various languages

Sometimes people lose perspective just how huge our Department of Defense is and the various military branches, and this is just the headquarters. A lot of responsibility for one man to carry on his shoulders eh?

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think that war, the the mindset of war, the dehumanization that war brings and the suppressed feelings that surface in war make it impossible, generally, for those closely engaged in war to notice how closely they have come to resembling animals. Only when their behavior becomes apparent and compared to those at a distance do they notice anything odd. War is mass psychosis. From those who have given themselves over to insanity you shouldn't expect sane behavior. This is why those who prosecute illegal and unnecessary war like Bush did should be tried in the world court.

How can war be "insanity" when it has been an integral part of human nature and cultural behavior since the dawn of history and civilization?

Then perhaps it's "human nature" that is insane? Marinate on that...

 

[AcidicFury]

I personally think Rumsfeld is mentally retarded or something. How he comes up with his ideas for his press conferences eludes me.

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: bykim5
Like he said, he's only seen the pictures a couple days ago. He underestimated how bad and damaging this was.

When you create an aura that demands the bad news never make it across your desk then these things happen.

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think that war, the the mindset of war, the dehumanization that war brings and the suppressed feelings that surface in war make it impossible, generally, for those closely engaged in war to notice how closely they have come to resembling animals. Only when their behavior becomes apparent and compared to those at a distance do they notice anything odd. War is mass psychosis. From those who have given themselves over to insanity you shouldn't expect sane behavior. This is why those who prosecute illegal and unnecessary war like Bush did should be tried in the world court.

I'm sure Ron Dumsfeld, as he sits back in his padded office chair, is driven progressively more insane every day as he barks "sustain the hunt for bin Laden (aka been Deaded) and his network at all costs" and "drive these terrorists out of Iraq and back to Iran and Syria from which they (probably did not) come from"... This guy spins whatever outcome he wants on the story and forces it down the staff's throat until they see things his way. Don't bring bad news to him... oh hell no! Bring an echo of his banter back to him and he will reward you every time. This guy really does love the sound of his own rhetoric. Don't can poor ole Dummy Rummy else we'll never be able to sustain this psychosis!!

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think that war, the the mindset of war, the dehumanization that war brings and the suppressed feelings that surface in war make it impossible, generally, for those closely engaged in war to notice how closely they have come to resembling animals. Only when their behavior becomes apparent and compared to those at a distance do they notice anything odd. War is mass psychosis. From those who have given themselves over to insanity you shouldn't expect sane behavior. This is why those who prosecute illegal and unnecessary war like Bush did should be tried in the world court.

How can war be "insanity" when it has been an integral part of human nature and cultural behavior since the dawn of history and civilization?

Then perhaps it's "human nature" that is insane? Marinate on that...

Or our perception of what is "sanity" is fundamentally flawed.

 

[GoPackGo]

Here is the better question...if the Red Cross knew about it a year ago then why didnt they go to the UN or the press or something?

Why did it take so long for this to really come out?

Where are these prisoners now who were tortured? What are the real numbers?

The benefit of not showing any faces is you could have used the same prisoners over and over and no one would really know.

Why would one be so stupid to take pictures? It's almost too outrageous, as if there was some sort of politcal motive behind it.

Almost makes me want to pull out the old Chewbacca defense

 

[SuperTool]

I don't like Rumsfeld and the whole neocon clique at the White House, but enough about the prisoners. All of the neocons should be flushed down the political toilet in the election starting from the top, for starting this stupid war, but all this fuss about a few rogue MPs getting their kicks is a bit absurd. I mean there GI's and Iraqi civilians killed, and we are concerning ourselves with a bunch of militants getting groped. I mean, the only thing gayer than the photos are all these tough guys from pres down to Rumsfield apologizing like a bunch of panzies on and on. Take corrective action, and move on. The democrats should stop blowing it out of proportion too. I think it's sufficient and necessary to criticize Bush on getting into this idiotic war in the first place, not going after him on every little detail. It's counterproductive and ridiculous, and distracts from legitimate attacks on Bush's judgement which got us bogged down in Iraq to begin with. Let Bush take the heat, and stay above the fray once in a while, instead of sticking your face in to take a cheap shot, Kerry.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sorry I didn't see your question earlier, Astaroth. It would take quite a bit of print to answer it fully and I have gone over the essentials many times before so I'll try a shotgun approach:

You know the Zen saying: "When I begun on the path mountains were mountains but then mountains weren't mountains anymore but when I arrived mountains were mountains. Something like that.

This, I think, refers to the duality we perceive as existence that is really an illusion. When we think, we step out of time. Thinking as always about the past. It requires images and concepts we have learned. The direct original, garden of Edin, consciousness of man was the direct perception of reality, it's mirror in perfection. No separation from what is perceived. I am the universe without the I because there is only the perception without the presence of self. When we learn language, something that happened at least and probably well before 40 thousand years ago, we learned how to become insane, to identify with words and thoughts and to tie them to experience and identity. We found out that we could control each other by calling each other bad. There is nothing that is bad but there is pain and the withdrawal of love and support. Humanity, in total, became mentally ill, infected with the notion that man is evil. This occurred because we put our children down, withdrew our love and support of them if they didn't conform to the insanity of our dual way. We invented good and evil and the capacity to rationalize and excuse anything in the name of good. We taught each other that each is the worst in the world. The pain of this experience is complete and total, as painful as a human can feel pain. It was therefore deeply buried in consciousness because humans cannot survive with such conscious pain. We know it know only vaguely in depression or the feeling that something is incomplete, that there is something somewhere that is perfection. That perfection is the unity of state that comes with direct perception of reality without out thought, something we can no longer do except occasionally and with effort.

So yes, all of humanity is insane and there's no real need to change the definition. We can only just see it about the other and not about ourselves. We cannot easily permit ourselves to re-experience our pain. It has however been done on occasion been done.