Ageia PPU...maybe not so great after all.

[nib95]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Even with top of the line hardware, games like Oblivion aren't running anywhere near 60 fps. More likely you'll be going from 30 fps to 2 fps. I can understand why Bethesda dropped most of the physics from the game. GPUs have a long, long way to go before they can match these kinds of demands.

Totally not true.
I get 60fps average easy. 1920 x 1200 max/v high settings and lots of image enhancing mods.

Outside perhaps only 34-60fps (ave 45), cities 40-130fps (ave 65), dungeons 60-240fps (ave 80). In other words, put all the numbers together and I think you'll find an average of over 60fps. I do obviously have an ultra high end system, but just proving a point.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Even with top of the line hardware, games like Oblivion aren't running anywhere near 60 fps. More likely you'll be going from 30 fps to 2 fps. I can understand why Bethesda dropped most of the physics from the game. GPUs have a long, long way to go before they can match these kinds of demands.

Totally not true.
I get 60fps average easy. 1920 x 1200 max/v high settings and lots of image enhancing mods.

Outside perhaps only 34-60fps (ave 45), cities 40-130fps (ave 65), dungeons 60-240fps (ave 80). In other words, put all the numbers together and I think you'll find an average of over 60fps. I do obviously have an ultra high end system, but just proving a point.

Yeah, just the small point that probably 0.1% of the people who play these games actually have SLI/Crossfire.

 

[nib95]

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Even with top of the line hardware, games like Oblivion aren't running anywhere near 60 fps. More likely you'll be going from 30 fps to 2 fps. I can understand why Bethesda dropped most of the physics from the game. GPUs have a long, long way to go before they can match these kinds of demands.

Totally not true.
I get 60fps average easy. 1920 x 1200 max/v high settings and lots of image enhancing mods.

Outside perhaps only 34-60fps (ave 45), cities 40-130fps (ave 65), dungeons 60-240fps (ave 80). In other words, put all the numbers together and I think you'll find an average of over 60fps. I do obviously have an ultra high end system, but just proving a point.

Yeah, just the small point that probably 0.1% of the people who play these games actually have SLI/Crossfire.

That's besides the point

You said "even with top of the line hardware".
That comment is irrespective of how 'common' such hardware is, it only regards what is top end or not. So, I still prove you wrong

 

[Markbnj]

Originally posted by: munky
Maybe if the game devs actually used it properly it wouldnt decellerate the graphics. Of course things are gonna get slow if you have 10000 flying objects in the scene. But does anyone need all that debris to have a game with good physics? If the PPU can provide effects like cars blowing up or getting damaged with realistic modeling, I'd be happy. But then again, with less extreme physics, you may be able to do the same effects on a fast modern cpu, so it's unclear yet to which extent should the PPU be used. But I was skeptical about all the hype of this thing before it lauchched, and nothing I've seen has changed my mind since then.

Exactly.

 

[Dethfrumbelo]

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: Dethfrumbelo
Even with top of the line hardware, games like Oblivion aren't running anywhere near 60 fps. More likely you'll be going from 30 fps to 2 fps. I can understand why Bethesda dropped most of the physics from the game. GPUs have a long, long way to go before they can match these kinds of demands.

Totally not true.
I get 60fps average easy. 1920 x 1200 max/v high settings and lots of image enhancing mods.

Outside perhaps only 34-60fps (ave 45), cities 40-130fps (ave 65), dungeons 60-240fps (ave 80). In other words, put all the numbers together and I think you'll find an average of over 60fps. I do obviously have an ultra high end system, but just proving a point.

Yeah, just the small point that probably 0.1% of the people who play these games actually have SLI/Crossfire.

That's besides the point

You said "even with top of the line hardware".
That comment is irrespective of how 'common' such hardware is, it only regards what is top end or not. So, I still prove you wrong

Yup, good for you.

 

[T2k]

Wow: we ordered a Dell machine for my friend 2 days ago w/ free ground shipping - it has just arrived. This means my Physx card has arrived. Cool...

 

[aniruddha23]

I dont think a PhysX card can survive for long in this market. They will either be integrated into the Graphics card or CPU or they will die.

the former seems to be more probable

 

[T2k]

Integrating into the GPU wouldn't make any sense, that's probably the worst idea for physics acceleration.

 

[1Dark1Sharigan1]

Originally posted by: T2k
Integrating into the GPU wouldn't make any sense, that's probably the worst idea for physics acceleration.

Well both nvidia and ATI are set on doing it anyway . . .

 

[BenSkywalker]

But does anyone need all that debris to have a game with good physics?

That line of thought, more then anything, is the one most likely to slaughter PC gaming altogether. When the consoles are offering gaming generations beyond what the PC can approach, that will be when PC gaming is going to be facing complete failure for real.

If the PPU can provide effects like cars blowing up or getting damaged with realistic modeling, I'd be happy.

How about material modeling and interaction? Take a game with very, very weak physics like HL2- the game where a rocket launcher can't destroy plywood. How much more immersive would a game be if devs that had real talent were able to make completely accurate environments? You know, a hand grenade will actually take out that chain link fence that has been stopping your tank? Or how about secondary splash damage? Some dives for cover in a room and you fire a rocket into the room with them the concussion force of the rocket plus the debris it generates is going to cause serious damage to a normal person- they certainly won't be unscathed which is the norm as of today. How about sheetrock stopping slugs from dual 45s? I don't know about you, but I'm getting a bit tired of that. If PCs continue to rely on the snails pace advancement of CPUs then they are going to fail completely to be competitive with what consoles will be offering.

But how those capabilities will be used in actual games is a different matter, especially when a) the point of the game is not to just show off the physics, and b) the rest of the system can't handle the additional physics load without slow downs.

A) Not all developers are retarded

B) Not all developers are retarded

That covers those two problems.

Speaking of Aegia in particular I have no idea how good the chip is, I have yet to see a breakdown of it to have even a rough idea of how much power the part has. I certainly have not seen anything that indicates that it will outperform Cell, but the idea of a dedicated physics processor is one that PCs need or the platform is going to turn into an upgraded cell phone in terms of gaming. x86 CPUs as they stand right now are far too slow in vector performance to keep up with their counterparts, and those that think GPUs should be handling the load should really do something outrageous like think about that for more then a couple of seconds

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: 1Dark1Sharigan1

Originally posted by: T2k
Integrating into the GPU wouldn't make any sense, that's probably the worst idea for physics acceleration.

Well both nvidia and ATI are set on doing it anyway . . .

That's good for them, not for you...

 

[otispunkmeyer]

r jus reading on FS about the Havok ageia slangin match

and i read that ageia's physx is bolted on top of havoks software physics

http://www.firingsquad.com/features/ageia_physx_response/page2.asp

"AGEIA: That is true. AGEIA PhysX had to be layered on top of Havok to extend the physics effects beyond that which could be achieved with CPU only. Imagine what you?ll see in tomorrow?s games in which all resources can be dedicated to PhysX without the hinderance of a software physics engine that runs on general purpose hardware."

so they got 2 physics api's working in tandem?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: 1Dark1Sharigan1

Originally posted by: T2k
Integrating into the GPU wouldn't make any sense, that's probably the worst idea for physics acceleration.

Well both nvidia and ATI are set on doing it anyway . . .

That's good for them, not for you...

How so?

 

[Bobthelost]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
r jus reading on FS about the Havok ageia slangin match

and i read that ageia's physx is bolted on top of havoks software physics

http://www.firingsquad.com/features/ageia_physx_response/page2.asp

"AGEIA: That is true. AGEIA PhysX had to be layered on top of Havok to extend the physics effects beyond that which could be achieved with CPU only. Imagine what you?ll see in tomorrow?s games in which all resources can be dedicated to PhysX without the hinderance of a software physics engine that runs on general purpose hardware."

so they got 2 physics api's working in tandem?

Games programers in crap code shocker!?

Never!

 

[Drayvn]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
r jus reading on FS about the Havok ageia slangin match

and i read that ageia's physx is bolted on top of havoks software physics

http://www.firingsquad.com/features/ageia_physx_response/page2.asp

"AGEIA: That is true. AGEIA PhysX had to be layered on top of Havok to extend the physics effects beyond that which could be achieved with CPU only. Imagine what you?ll see in tomorrow?s games in which all resources can be dedicated to PhysX without the hinderance of a software physics engine that runs on general purpose hardware."

so they got 2 physics api's working in tandem?

MAybe that could be the reason why performance drops quite a bit for very little reward maybe?

Because if you look at it the PPU has to work at the lowest common denominator which is the software side of the Havok Physics???

Maybe???

 

[Munky]

Well, it basically tells me that a PPU running Havok physics code may not be as fast as a CPU running the same code. Anyone remember all the hype about HW T&L introduced by the geforce 256? It worked just fine, until you started using multiple light in the scene, and when you got up to about 6 to 8 lights, its T&L performance was actually slower than a CPU from that era. Maybe the same thing is happening here - it's a first gen PPU, and maybe it performs best only under certain parameters, and the Havok engine may be exceeding those parameters, since it was designed to run on a general purpose CPU.

 

[Keysplayr]

Are there any Havok physics demos available.

::::enters url for google::::

 

[T2k]

Wow, CellFactor demo is available now: http://www.ageia.com/downloadcellfactor/process.php

My Physx arrived just days ago, just in time...

 

[T2k]

It's down - let's call it a lunch break and install it... unfortunately I still don't have my X1900XT here, so I will use an older, AGP-based machine...

 

[T2k]

Ouch, another really retarded demo release: it won't run on x64. Why? God knows why - everything else including GRAW runs just fine - but first this cf.exe unpacks itself for ~2 mins and only then gives you the error. Lame. (

 

[T2k]

Currently installing on 32-bit but I'll try to repackage for 64-bit as well...

 

[T2k]

Excellent: it crashes on 32-bit, no matter which Physx driver I use. Another PoS...?

 

[dfloyd]

Ok I read enough now I skipped to the bottom.... WHY IS ANYONE DEFENDING THESE GUYS?

Maybe you need to relook at their web page and see the words "PhysX-OPTIMIZED Titles". Now think about that just for one sec before you quickly hit the reply button and call me a newb. Now think about it some more and go get your dictionary and look up Optimized.

Wait I will make it easy for you, just click Here!

Now what part of to make perfect, or under the computer term, to INCREASE the speed AND efficiency does anyone not understand?

Right now Ageia and Physx looks like a joke, who cares what it might do, I might become richer than Bill Gates, might not, but I might. See the problem with that statement?

So until Ageia actaully delivers everyone has a right to point out that right now, Hardware Based Consumer Physics Proccessing Cards are less than desireable. That is until numbers or graphics are shown otherwise.

And to the guy who posted that physics based processing will make capable all he stated above, I have some nice Ocean front property I would like to sell to you in Arizona, very cheap, just send me cash first and I will send you deed later. Or in reality this might be accomplished five+ years from now, but it will take alot more than just physics hardware alone.

Considering the performance hit on the simple physics that GRAW is doing I would LOVE to see someone find a way to emulate the physics card and then compare just hardware based CPU numbers on some decent CPUs.

Edit: Cellfactor Demo System Requirements:

AGEIA PhysX Accelerator (Yes, it is required!)
Windows XP
Intel or AMD CPU 2 GHz +
1 GB RAM
DirectX 9 compliant Graphics Card

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face lmao.

 

[T2k]

So until Ageia actaully delivers everyone has a right to point out that right now, Hardware Based Consumer Physics Proccessing Cards are less than desireable.

FYI: AGEIA's approach is just one solution - so the fact that currently it's still unproven and the only (barely) available one doesn't justify such claims like "Hardware Based Consumer Physics Proccessing Cards are less than desireable." We need another few months to see what this card can do but we can certainly say that hw-acc'ed PP cards would be more than welcomed by most of the gamers. A more interactive/interesting, better gameplay is much more important than a possible 10% framerate drop, I believe.

 

[TommyD]

So, do you all really think that it won't be fixed to work with SLi or Xfire?