Originally posted by: melchoir
Decide differently from what?
From what god predicted the instant he became omniscient.
Wouldn't we all be christians if God was running our lives? Sorry buddy, can't have it both ways. You either have freedom or you don't.
And how will we know what God has predicted so that we can decide differently? And if we can't, who's to say that whatever decision we made, whether we changed our minds or whatnot, is what God knew about to begin with?
Again: Just because God knows what we will do doesn't mean he decided it for us.
Melchior, will this solve the problem for you?
You're sitting in front of your computer. God knows which key on the keyboard you will hit next. Can you still choose?
Now can you tell me if you still think that God's omnicience and your free will are mutually exclusive?
Originally posted by: melchoir
You even said it yourself although you don't seem to be able to realize it. You realize there is a difference between predicting something and causing something right?
God caused the chain of events that would start this when he created the universe, and he knew it.
By having sex you're starting the chain reaction. If you didn't sleep through science you know the process also. So does that mean you're controling it?
Originally posted by: melchoir
Melchior, will this solve the problem for you?
You're sitting in front of your computer. God knows which key on the keyboard you will hit next. Can you still choose?
Now can you tell me if you still think that God's omnicience and your free will are mutually exclusive?
If god is as written in the bible, then yes I have no real choice in what I'm typing.
Just because he knows doesn't mean he choses to influence anything...
Originally posted by: busmaster11
So if God knew that already that Adam and Eve were naive and could conceivably be fooled by the serpent, why the heck didn't he do anything to intervene? God KNEW that if he didn't say anything, the serpent would trick them into eating the apple....Clearly, God, being omniscient and omnipotent, could EASILY have said Hey, Adam & Eve, don't listen to that serpent-fellow, he's evil, he'll corrupt you. I mean, isn't that what parents do?? They protect their children when they KNOW there's danger.Correct. He could have. But that would be taking away free will wouldn't it? Whether you look at the story as a literal account or a metaphor, the end result is the same - humankind would not have the choice to decide what it wants.
No, it would NOT be taking away free will. Let's say I WARN my 2 year-old not to stick his finger in the wall socket because he can get electrocuted. Let's also say that I KNOW my 2 year-old is not old enough to understand what I mean when I warn him and tell him he can get electrocuted. Let's also say that I KNOW my 2 year-old is curious and is likes to stick his finger in things. So what should I do? Should I put plastic protecters over my wall sockets? Or should I let him electrocute himself? Would it be taking away free will by covering up those wall sockets??
Same thing. God is omniscient. HE KNEW that Adam & Eve would not be capable of resisting the apple, despite being warned (just like I KNOW a 2 y/o won't understand my warning about electrocution). He KNEW that Adam & Eve were curious and would be likely to sample that apple (just like I KNEW my hypothetical 2 y/o liked to stick his fingers in things). Yet, God did NOTHING to reduce the likelihood of Adam & Eve eating from the forbidden tree. This would be analogous to me NOT doing anything to cover up the forbidden wall socket and allowing my 2 y/o to electrocute himself. God's FAILURE to go through the most basic efforts to protect his children is yet another gross inconsistency in the bible.
And your analogy about parents and children isn't quite correct... Children cannot be held completely responsible for their own actions.
The analogy is completely parallel. Adam & Eve were newly created and naive. They were just learning about the new world around them in the Garden of Eden, and didn't even know not to trust that serpent. Just like children, they needed protection from their parent. God is omniscient, so he definitely knew that his children would be in danger, yet he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prevent them from harming themselves. The analogy stands, unless you specifically find a non-parallelism.
Now if you are saying you shouldn't be held responsible for your own actions, well then I'm sorry I shouldn't be arguing with you...
I'm not sure where you got that idea from...Are you creating a false argument just for the sake of refuting it?? I can do that too...lemme see...okay, here's one:
Look, busmaster, if you're going to argue that it's okay for priests to molest children, then I don't even want to talk to you anymore.
How was that one??
Oh, I see. Well what about the villagers in the middle of Zimbabwe who worship their local gods and have NEVER heard of the bible, Jesus, God, etc.? They have no clue that they could receive salvation through Jesus. What will become of them??That, my friend, is what I believe to a prime example of my first boldfaced sentence: As Christians, we have failed many of our fellow man...
How come only HALF the world knows about God? If God went through all the trouble of creating all his children, don't you think he'd find some way to reach out to EVERYONE? After all, he's omnipotent...all he has to do is lift a finger to make things happen for those people in Zimbabwe, for instance. Does this mean that God doesn't love some of his children?? I mean, what kind of parent doesn't even TRY to get his kids to know him???
Which puts you in a dilemma, because you Christians think you're special -- special because you're under the pretense that God chose YOU to "spread the word" to the pathetic non-Christians who weren't fortunate enough to be blessed with knowledge of God. This accounts for much of the holier-than-thou, condescending, and sanctimonious attitude rampant among many Christians. Yep.
Valsalva
Originally posted by: petrek
The whole Creation story is a metaphor, there was no "tree".
I would just like to say that I completely disagree with the above statement. Unless God is mythical (which I don't believe), I find no reason to believe that the creation account as reported in the Word of God is mythical. Considering current prophetical events taking place regarding God's chosen people (the Nation of Israel), the Mark of the Beast, as well as others, it would be difficult to shake my faith in the Word of God.
Dave
Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl
Originally posted by: melchoir
You even said it yourself although you don't seem to be able to realize it. You realize there is a difference between predicting something and causing something right?
God caused the chain of events that would start this when he created the universe, and he knew it.
What's your point? Knowing the chain of events and controlling them are two completely different things. Let's say you get a girl pregnant. By having sex you're starting the chain reaction. If you didn't sleep through science you know the process also. So does that mean you're controling it? I don't think so. Knowing something is not the same as controlling it. The sooner you figure that out the better.
The fulfilment of prophecy has no bearing on the legitimacy of the Creation story, nor the legitimacy of Bible believers concept of God.
As Jesus himself showed, people(Phariscees) can adhere to the words of scripture flawlessly, yet completely miss the point of those words. The "Creation", "Heaven and Hell", and the "Rapture" do not exist as accepted(among other concepts). All religion is the foundation of Civilization, laying the ground rules for social interaction, as time goes on the original intent gets lost as Mysticism takes over. Not that the Mysticizing of an idea is all bad, at least it keeps the idea alive, however, it makes much of what is accepted as legitimate as Santa Claus.
Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut
Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl
Originally posted by: melchoir
You even said it yourself although you don't seem to be able to realize it. You realize there is a difference between predicting something and causing something right?
God caused the chain of events that would start this when he created the universe, and he knew it.
What's your point? Knowing the chain of events and controlling them are two completely different things. Let's say you get a girl pregnant. By having sex you're starting the chain reaction. If you didn't sleep through science you know the process also. So does that mean you're controling it? I don't think so. Knowing something is not the same as controlling it. The sooner you figure that out the better.
Melchoir has been making a lot of good points, and I'd just like to acknowledge that. It can be frustrated when you make an excellent point, yet your opposition is too inept to appreciate the fact that their argument has just been rejected.
Anyway, flxnimprtmscl, Melchoir is essentially stating this:
Let's say on 1/1/03, the omniscient God knows that Bob will have steak for dinner on 1/2/03.
On 1/2/03, Bob MUST have steak for dinner. If he instead eats chicken, for example, then God would have been WRONG on 1/1/03 when he "knew" that Bob would eat steak. Therefore, Bob does NOT have free will because having the free will would EXCLUDE the possibility that God was omniscient.
Free will implies that at a particular moment in time, up to the point a decision is made, an individual can freely choose a course of action. However, in order for God omniscient, he should be able to predict what decision would be made. Here's the problem. If at an earlier time, an individual's decision has already been "locked in" (because God made a prediction and he cannot be wrong), then he obviously does not have "free will."
It's actually quite basic. Think about it.
Valsalva
I'm honestly speechless. I can't belive you can possibly be that stupid. Wow.
Anyway, God knows you're going to wake up tomorrow morning. Unfortunately for the rest of us I might add. Is he taking away your free will by making you wake up? Or was that going to happen anyway?
You're logic is flawed from the start. God is able to see the entire furture. It doesn't mean he controls it. It means he knows what we will do with our free will before we do it. Your logic is flawed because you're thinking that God's just kind of guessing things and if we act real fast we can fake God out or something. You prove my point for me when you say "God made a prediction". A prediction is a guess. If God was just up there kind of tossing guesses out then yes, your point would be correct. We would either have no free will or God wouldn't be Omniscient. But, God's not guessing because he already knows. Anyway, nice try sparky.
We would either have no free will or God wouldn't be Omniscient.
God is able to see the entire furture. It doesn't mean he controls it. It means he knows what we will do with our free will before we do it.
The problem here is that God knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. His knowledge cannot be wrong. There is not a single event that He has not foresaw. Now given that He created the Universe the way He did, do we have free will? Consider that when God made the Universe he could see every possible result of what he was doing. Which means, He could not create something without knowing what the results would be, and without knowing how it would be affected (and effect) the things around it.
Let's say that Fred has a choice that will save his life, to accept God or not to accept God and the final choice is to be made tomorrow. God knows already what choice he will make - God cannot be wrong therefore Fred cannot choose otherwise to what God has known. When God created the chain of events that made Fred, He also knew that He was making Fred's choice for him, and knew how the various circumstances and character would make him choose either right or wrong. Fred would go forth and make that very decision that God knew he would make, and by virtue that God knowingly set up all the factors that affected his decision, it was not up to Fred but to God, when He created the Universe, to decide how Fred would fare.
This argument does not imply that God does not exist. It leaves us with three results, two of which have to be wrong.
God created everything with full knowledge and we have no free will to change it
God does not have full knowledge
God did not make the Universe
The first one would mean that God is not benevolent, and we are all absolved of any guilt on our behalf. It is not compatible with the Bible's teachings, or with the "infallible" Catholic Church. The second option denies God omniscience, which is also not compatible with God being the all-knowing truth. The third option would explain things more coherently than denying God any of His powers - that God Himself is an observer but unfortunately, this leads on to polytheism. When we consider the problem of free will we see that it is impossible for the Christian doctrine of salvation, sin or choice to be true. Christianity, if it claims these are necessary, must also be wrong.
No matter which angle we choose to look at these problems, we can see that God did not create the universe, or is not benevolent, or is not omniscient. The only logical solution to all these problems remains in these four words: God does not exist.
Maybe after you do the same about your assertion/premise that lack of belief in Jesus gets you sent to hell, he will do so with you. Don't hold others to standards and expect them to do things that you yourself are not willing to do. Hmmm... there's a rather plain and obvious case of hypocriticality you've been asking for. BTW... there are some Hardcore Televangelist Jobs still open... with your persona you're almost set to make some money, fundi.I expect you now to acknowledge that that you were incorrect, and I do believe that an apology for your unfounded remarks is in order.
What is your point? If the story is true, then God and Heaven are true. If God and Heaven are true than those who are righteous in His sight go to Heaven. If the innocent didn't go to hell, but went from ancient Earth (NOT the place of leisure most of us enjoy today) to Heaven, why are you saying they got a raw deal?There's absolutely no way you can possibly suggest every human was wicked. Even if the humans all were (including infants) wicked, what about the innocent animals? They were destroyed as well.
The Bible says that only those who show faith have the right to be called His children. If you are going to make statements like this, please be ready to produce Biblical evidence to back it up.God killed his children for things they had no control over.
If the innocent didn't go to hell, but went from ancient Earth (NOT the place of leisure most of us enjoy today) to Heaven, why are you saying they got a raw deal?
The Bible says that only those who show faith have the right to be called His children
BTW... you a member of PETA or something?
Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut
Read the above...and ask yourself, why do Christians spend all their time crucifying non-Christians? ValsalvaOriginally posted by: DevilsAdvocate Why do you people spend all of your time crucifying Christians?