AGNOSTIC Accountability Groups Starting Up

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: QTArrhythmic

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: QTArrhythmic
Attention:

If you are agnostic this is the place for you. If you are a Christian and would like to have a serious discussion that's okay, but remember you have to be reasonable.

I decided to start this thread because I realize that there are quite a few born again Christians on this forum and many of them like to discuss their religion with non-believers. I thought it would be a good idea if we were to start up an accountability based on nothing divine or God inspired, but on man alone. .

Some topics of accountability may include:
Discussing the validity of the Bible
Sexual ImPurity (this one is a biggie)
General Logical Thinking



It will be a great way for us Agnostics to share experiences, discuss nonbelief systems, and help one another.


So far I have:
Valsalvayourheartout
TheBoyBlunder
WinkOsmosis
Mith
MindStorm
iwearnosox
Dr Smooth
MercenaryForHire
Alchemist99
kevinthenerd
yamahaXS
LeeTJ

Edit: Discussion is encouraged, but name calling and flamming is unacceptable.
Personal attacks are unacceptable also.
This thread is not intended to be flamebait.

QT, your attempts to hide this as a mockery of Christians on this forum is quite obvious and transparent. Exactly what kind of accountability are you to discuss, and who are you trying to be accountable to? Yourselves? Each person has his own standards of morals, beliefs, and convictions, so really, you'll have to go all out and grasp what each member's are and try to somehow over the internet make them follow... their own. Makes no sense, does it?

I'd like to avoid flamebait, but it seems to me you're just a troll.

So far it's been a lively discussion with little flamming. This thread can be judged on it own-- you tell me!

But how's it working at keeping you accountable? ...whatever that means. Flamage will come because you chose to entitle your thread as a mockery of Christians.

You _are_ a troll.

 

[melchoir]

You still don't seem to understand. You listed ways one can be saved once someone has the knowledge of the existance of Jesus. You've pointed out that it is only through Jesus that people get to God... but that doesn't necessitate a knowledge of Jesus.

I think you need to read what I've posted agian, actually see what it says and understand it. It states that EVERY MAN has sinned, sinners don't go to heaven. You must look to Jesus to save you, or you're going to hell. That's what it says.

You still exclude a possibility... that God is Omniscient and that we also have free will and that the place a dichotomy exists is in our feeble minds.

You argue something must be true since you cannot come up with a logical explanation for it. We know enough about God to write a Bible about him and his Word, yet we aren't able to understand it? I think not.

Let's take it away from God for just a moment. Let's say that you suddenly had absolute knowledge of every event in the future. Would that mean that there was no free will from this point onward or just that certain people would make certain decisions in certain situations and you merely knew the outcome of what they, of their own will, were going to decide.

The moment any omniscient entity comes into existance is the moment all free will is denied. It doesn't matter who has the knowledge.

Going back a couple of posts though... if God is locked in His Omniscience rather than being the master of it then all of this is moot. If God operates the way some say on here, then He doesn't have free will either and can only do what He already knows He's going to do and can't change that. To be honest... when I try to understand His Omniscience and forknowledge I reach the same conclusions; God must be static in all thought and action, one single collection of all thoughts and all time, never changing, never "thinking" as we think of thought. But I also know that this isn't true because He entered into the dimension of Time as the person Jesus.

God would indeed be static in all thought in action, you only believe he entered into the dimension of Time as the person Jesus. Even if he did, that wouldn't change the fact that he was "locked in" to doing it by his own knowledge.

Since God knows what WILL happen, and this means that we cannot act in any way contrary to what God knows, this eliminates Free Action. But does this also eliminate Free Choice?

Yes, it's gone. You cannot choose differently from what he knows (if god exists as written in the bible). Period.

I disagree. We are separate, therefore, we think separately.

That's well and good, but you still have no choice other then what's been predermined by the existance of an omniscient entity.

An all-good God has no free will
Out of the possible options in a situation God always makes the best choice because he is benevolent. He cannot do something that is less moral than something else, it would not be perfectly good.

So in every situation, God only has one choice: The most moral one. It is easy to see that God Himself does not have free will. He can make no choices, every moment in time for an omniscient-benevolent God only allows one action.

In order to give God his free will, we would have to take away his omniscience - his all-knowing nature - or take away his benevolence.

3. Conclusion: God is not moral
An omniscient being cannot have free will.
A benevolent God cannot have free will.

God is doubly denied his free will if he contains both these properties.

 

[element]

Originally posted by: Netopia
Aweful quiet... y'all give up?

Joe

Well no one had any comments on what I wrote. And I didn't read everthing in this thread either, it's too long. i read a lot of it though.

 

[QTArrhythmic]

Originally posted by: Athanasius

I don't think that it does. I believe the key point here, at least to me, is not about whether we are free to alter the future in a way contrary to what God already knows, but whether we are free to make a choice without that choice being nothing but a causal chain of neural events which necessarily dictate our choice to us. I do not believe that mental activity can be fully reduced to physical causal events, and thus I believe that choice can be a matter of will and not merely a physically determined phenomenon.

In other words:

Personality is greater than matter

Provided "matter" is understood as shorthand for "solely naturalistic/materialistic phenomenon."

It seems like personality is more materialistic than that, because it can certainly described as mechanistic.

For examine, if I were to remove my Hippocampus, I would be unable to permenantly learn anything new, although I would have memory before the removal.

Another example is Phineas Gage. You can read about his story here.

This was a case were a man survived a severe head injury, but had a drastic change in personality.

How do you explain mental illness. If a someone has bipoler disorder and he/she decides to eat all of the tasty burgers at Big Kohuna Burger one night, has that person committed the sin of gluttony?

If I change my neuron firing pattern or change its organization my behavior has the potential to change as well.
It seems to me that there is no transcendence as you say, there is only a very complex, adaptable machine that has evolved.

 

[QTArrhythmic]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: QTArrhythmic

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: QTArrhythmic
Attention:

If you are agnostic this is the place for you. If you are a Christian and would like to have a serious discussion that's okay, but remember you have to be reasonable.

I decided to start this thread because I realize that there are quite a few born again Christians on this forum and many of them like to discuss their religion with non-believers. I thought it would be a good idea if we were to start up an accountability based on nothing divine or God inspired, but on man alone. .

Some topics of accountability may include:
Discussing the validity of the Bible
Sexual ImPurity (this one is a biggie)
General Logical Thinking



It will be a great way for us Agnostics to share experiences, discuss nonbelief systems, and help one another.


So far I have:
Valsalvayourheartout
TheBoyBlunder
WinkOsmosis
Mith
MindStorm
iwearnosox
Dr Smooth
MercenaryForHire
Alchemist99
kevinthenerd
yamahaXS
LeeTJ

Edit: Discussion is encouraged, but name calling and flamming is unacceptable.
Personal attacks are unacceptable also.
This thread is not intended to be flamebait.

QT, your attempts to hide this as a mockery of Christians on this forum is quite obvious and transparent. Exactly what kind of accountability are you to discuss, and who are you trying to be accountable to? Yourselves? Each person has his own standards of morals, beliefs, and convictions, so really, you'll have to go all out and grasp what each member's are and try to somehow over the internet make them follow... their own. Makes no sense, does it?

I'd like to avoid flamebait, but it seems to me you're just a troll.

So far it's been a lively discussion with little flamming. This thread can be judged on it own-- you tell me!

But how's it working at keeping you accountable? ...whatever that means. Flamage will come because you chose to entitle your thread as a mockery of Christians.

You _are_ a troll.

The big Mr. busmaster11 is not whether or not I'm a troll, it's what you have to contribute to this thread. So far you have been participating in the the thread discussion, as it was intended. I don't deny that this thread an image of another, but it has had relative little flamming.

In addition, because you have so much time to write comments on how I'm a troll, why don't you go through my posts on this thread and see if any really support your hypothesis.

 

[QTArrhythmic]

Originally posted by: Netopia

It also doesn't make sense that God has no beginning and no end, God was always around and always will be around

Totally true. So what make faith in Him creating the universe any harder than believing something else created it. Both would have to pre-exist the universe and both would either have to be eternal or be created by something else which pre-existed them. So why does science have no problem making wild speculations as to the creation and origin of the universe but Chistians are ridiculed for believing what they do.

Joe

I don't think science is making wild spectulations, they are making theories based on some evidence, like red shift dopper radiation (expanding universe) and radiological dating (age of earth, etc). There is very little evidence for the creation described in the Bible.
You might say there is evidence if we don't take the creation story literally. Nevertheless, there are other stories that are inconsistent with a modern geological science- example= Noah's Art and a great flood.

And If God is involved..
Why the Christian God, why not Vishnu?

 

[Netopia]

It states that EVERY MAN has sinned, sinners don't go to heaven.

You are joking, right? The logic of your statement would dictate that NO ONE goes to heaven because sinners don't go and everyone's a sinner.

You must look to Jesus to save you, or you're going to hell. That's what it says.

You are adding words that aren't in line with scripture. Please provide some scripture that says that if you've never heard of Jesus and thus didn't "look to Jesus to save you" that you are going to hell. I don't think you can, because it isn't there. The Bible speaks of three kinds of people... those who have heard and accepted, those who have heard and rejected and those who have never heard. You seem to indicate that the second and third types are lumped together, but that's not what it says in the Bible... go look, I'll wait.

You argue something must be true since you cannot come up with a logical explanation for it. We know enough about God to write a Bible about him and his Word, yet we aren't able to understand it? I think not.

Wrong. I don't argue that if we can't come up with a logic explanation something MUST be true. I argue that if we haven't proven otherwise we must leave the door open for all potential possibilities. And as for understanding Scripture... I doubt there is a single man alive today that understands it all... but then we aren't talking about understanding scripture, we're talking about understanding part of the nature of creation, which neither religion nor science has all the answers for.

they are making theories based on some evidence, like red shift dopper radiation (expanding universe) and radiological dating (age of earth, etc).

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said science in general. I was thinking specifically about quantum physics and the theories about the nature of the universe and its beginnings.

And If God is involved..
Why the Christian God, why not Vishnu?

That would be beyond the scope of our capabilities to answer. God is who He is. If you are asking me why I believe in the Judeo/Christian God I would have to answer that ultimately faith is a gift. Beyond that I personally have looked at other religions (in my younger searching days) and I found Christianity to be the most logical. Things like God saying that our sacrifies are no good to make things right... we're only giving back to Him what's His in the first place.... instead He shows His love by becoming the sacrifice for us! A close study of OT prophesy makes one ask how so much could come true on a limitted time table unless something supernatural were at work. More and more archeology is finding the Bible more accurate than anyone would have imagined... Sodom was thought to be mythical and only spoken of in the Bible until a map was discovered showing it. Only a few years ago King David was said to be Biblical Mythology but now they have archeological confirmation that he we true.

At some point one has to ask one's self why they continue to look for fault while the evidence mounts and mounts.

Joe

 

[melchoir]

You are joking, right? The logic of your statement would dictate that NO ONE goes to heaven because sinners don't go and everyone's a sinner.

You are allowed to sin and go to heaven only if you seek repentance in Jesus's name.

You are adding words that aren't in line with scripture. Please provide some scripture that says that if you've never heard of Jesus and thus didn't "look to Jesus to save you" that you are going to hell. I don't think you can, because it isn't there. The Bible speaks of three kinds of people... those who have heard and accepted, those who have heard and rejected and those who have never heard. You seem to indicate that the second and third types are lumped together, but that's not what it says in the Bible... go look, I'll wait.

I'll post it for the third time, maybe you'll get it.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Please read this as many times as necessary for it to register that EVERYONE HAS SINNED, this does not in anyway exclude those who don't know of God or Jesus.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This is how you become saved. This doesn't exclude people who don't know of Jesus. It goes for all men.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This says, if you weren't saved you go to hell. Notice how you cannot become saved without knowing and beleving in Jesus.

 

[Rio Rebel]

melchoir,

You keep using the same Bible passages to make your point, but you're not proving it.

Even if you take the Bible literally (which I rarely do), you still haven't proven it. Here's why:

Point 1 - Valid. ALL have sinned.
Point 2 - Valid. IF you confess, believe, etc., you WILL be saved.
Conclusion: INVALID. How do you conclude that the path given in the second premise is the ONLY way to salvation? You haven't proven your point.

(I could give you a few verses to help fill in the gaps for you, but I won't, because I don't believe this point and the verses are not being taken as part of a whole message.)

By the way, several people have stated that Christians believe Jesus is the only way to salvation. That is patently false. The Catholic church clearly leaves room for "alternate paths" in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (That's just one example - Baptists believe in an "age of accountability", many other denominations have similar doctrines.)

Those of you who are just POSITIVE that all Christians believe only they are going to heaven, might be well served to learn the lesson I had to learn earlier in this thread (regarding Appeal to Authority) - sometimes you might be certain you know something, then find out you didn't realy know that after all.

 

[melchoir]

You keep using the same Bible passages to make your point, but you're not proving it.

Even if you take the Bible literally (which I rarely do), you still haven't proven it. Here's why:

I keep using the same passage because they do make my point. You don't understand it and that's not my fault.
I also find it funny how people don't take the Bible literally when there's something written that they don't like.

How do you conclude that the path given in the second premise is the ONLY way to salvation? You haven't proven your point.

You show me another way to be written to the Lambs book of Life without believing in Jesus and I'll admit I was wrong.

Rev 21:27 There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Rio Rebel]

melchoir, I showed you where you are in error. You can't make your second premise say more than it does. It says that salvation comes through Jesus - it does NOT preclude any other way. Nowhere in that verse does it say ONLY through Jesus do people avoid hell.

As to your ignorant accusation that I set aside literal interpretations of the Bible because it suits me, this doesn't deserve a response.

In the future, don't post arguments that you cannot support and then accuse others of being incapable of understanding them.

(and as I said, you could have done a better job proving your point with a little more research. For starters, you might try this verse: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father but through Me.")

 

[melchoir]

You should try reading all my posts, I did say this

Originally posted by: melchoir
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

This says that all men have sinned, period not only those who know of God and Jesus.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (written in the book of life)

This is how one becomes saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This says you cannot go straight to God, but through Jesus.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And this is what happens to those not saved. Period.

You can't make your second premise say more than it does. It says that salvation comes through Jesus - it does NOT preclude any other way. Nowhere in that verse does it say ONLY through Jesus do people avoid hell.

I'm sorry that some cannot put 2 + 2 together and realize things. Now, you show me where the lambs book of life can be bypassed, or another way of being added to it without believing in Jesus and I'll admit I was wrong.


Acts 13:48 ... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

All that are in the book of life are believers. (you have to know of God and Jesus to believe)

 

[Rio Rebel]

I didn't say you were wrong. I said you didn't prove your point. I'm sorry you can't understand the difference (and that you can't understand even the most basic principles of logic).

Let's say I want to prove that Bill Clinton is a man, and I put together a similar argument such as yours:

1. All men want companions.
2. Wives make great companions to men.
3. Bill Clinton has a wife.

Therefore, Bill Clinton must be a man.

That's very similar to your "proof". Study just a little bit of logic, and you'll learn that it's up to you to "put 2+2 together", and not just assume that half your argument is "understood".

 

[melchoir]

Let's say I want to prove that Bill Clinton is a man, and I put together a similar argument such as yours:

1. All men want companions.
2. Wives make great companions to men.
3. Bill Clinton has a wife.

Therefore, Bill Clinton must be a man.

1: All have sinned; Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
2: To be absolved of sin you must accept jesus; Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
3: If you are not absolved of sin, you will go to hell; Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nothing like your analogy. Show me another way into heaven, that skips believing in God and Jesus and I'll happily admit I was wrong. If that cannot be done then you're living in denial.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[petrek]

That's well and good, but you still have no choice other then what's been predermined by the existance of an omniscient entity.

We disagree.

1: All have sinned; Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
2: To be absolved of sin you must accept jesus; Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
3: If you are not absolved of sin, you will go to hell; Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nothing like your analogy. Show me another way into heaven, that skips believing in God and Jesus and I'll happily admit I was wrong. If that cannot be done then you're living in denial.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We agree.

Dave

 

[Rio Rebel]

You can get the entire human race to agree, and that won't make the argument valid. It's not that you are wrong, it's that your argument doesn't prove your point.

I was going to try again, but I don't think I can break this down any further. Maybe someone can help explain to you the difference.

 

[Netopia]

2: To be absolved of sin you must accept jesus;

A premise which you simply cannot support scripturally. As I've said, the Bible leaves the door open for people who have never heard and who have still lived by their conscience... WHY do you insist that it's not so?

3: If you are not absolved of sin, you will go to hell; Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The first part of this statement is true, as is the second. Unfortunately you won't be able to find something that says "Unless you hear about Jesus and then believe in Him your name won't be written in the Lamb's Book of Life". THAT is a conclusion which you are jumping to.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

NOW you are starting to get somewhere! Grace through faith! You are finally on the right track... now extend that grace and faith to the person who's never heard the name of Christ and you'll be moving toward understanding.


Joe

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: petrek

That's well and good, but you still have no choice other then what's been predermined by the existance of an omniscient entity.

We disagree.

1: All have sinned; Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
2: To be absolved of sin you must accept jesus; Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
3: If you are not absolved of sin, you will go to hell; Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nothing like your analogy. Show me another way into heaven, that skips believing in God and Jesus and I'll happily admit I was wrong. If that cannot be done then you're living in denial.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We agree.

Dave

pertek, you realize that based on those premises above, he believes that all who lived before Jesus (Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, ALL of the Prophets, David, Soloman, Josiah.....) go to hell because the never heard His name and were saved by the litteral confession that Jesus of Nazereth is the Lord and that God raised Him from the dead. Do you REALLY agree with him in this? It's a pretty unbiblical view. Daniel for instance was told directly by an Angel of the Lord that he was going to heaven:

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Does that sound like he was going to Hell for having never heard the exact name "Jesus" and instead just having faith in the revelation which God had given him?

Joe

 

[melchoir]

A premise which you simply cannot support scripturally. As I've said, the Bible leaves the door open for people who have never heard and who have still lived by their conscience... WHY do you insist that it's not so?

I insist it is so because it says ALL HAVE SINNED.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
You show me where in this does it say that those who've never heard of christ or god are magicly nonsinners.

The first part of this statement is true, as is the second. Unfortunately you won't be able to find something that says "Unless you hear about Jesus and then believe in Him your name won't be written in the Lamb's Book of Life". THAT is a conclusion which you are jumping to.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Luke 13:3 ...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

NOW you are starting to get somewhere! Grace through faith! You are finally on the right track... now extend that grace and faith to the person who's never heard the name of Christ and you'll be moving toward understanding.

I don't see where you get this notion that those who don't know of Christ are magicly cleansed of their sins.

you realize that based on those premises above, he believes that all who lived before Jesus (Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, ALL of the Prophets, David, Soloman, Josiah.....) go to hell because the never heard His name and were saved by the litteral confession that Jesus of Nazereth is the Lord and that God raised Him from the dead

Those who lived before Jesus were saved by faith into the true God.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

We are to give faith into the true god by believing that Jesus was raised by him, to be saved.

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Being born into a people group that does not have the gospel is a key factor in people not hearing the gospel. It is inevitable that children suffer for the sins of their parents, whether it be such things as newborn babies affected by their mother?s sexually transmitted disease, or children descended from people who have rejected knowledge of the true God.

Exodus 20:5 ...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

 

[Netopia]

I insist it is so because it says ALL HAVE SINNED.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
You show me where in this does it say that those who've never heard of christ or god are magicly nonsinners.

To start with, I've never argued about the fact that ALL are sinners and all fall short, that is the truth. Second, I've never said that those who've never heard of Christ or God are magically nonsinners... what I've said is that they aren't judged on their knowledge of Jesus, but on their consciences. You posted from Romans Chapter 3, did you skip over Chapter 2 getting to it?

(emphasis added)
ROMANS 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Man as a race was locked out of fellowship with God and it is only because of the work of Jesus and through His work that anyone can get to Heaven. But God doesn't punish people for happening to be born in a certain place where they have no control over not hearing. That's why Paul takes the time to address the situation in the first place. It is still because of Jesus and His redemptive work that they can enter into heaven, but God looks at the things which even the natural man knows is right and wrong and judges whether these people are the type to not care and do what they please or whether they are the type to seek after righteousness and realize that they cannot even perfectly keep their own values of right and wrong.

Want more proof that God doesn't hold all people accountable when they don't know better? Look at the Book of Hosea:

HOS 4:13 They sacrifice on the mountaintops
and burn offerings on the hills,
under oak, poplar and terebinth,
where the shade is pleasant.
Therefore your daughters turn to prostitution
and your daughters-in-law to adultery.

HOS 4:14 "I will not punish your daughters
when they turn to prostitution,
nor your daughters-in-law
when they commit adultery,
because the men themselves consort with harlots
and sacrifice with shrine prostitutes--
a people without understanding will come to ruin!

The whole of the culture was coming to ruin, but God didn't hold it against these young women for being prostitutes and/or committing adultery because that is the culture they were taught by the leaders of the society. In this case, I believe that the women were probably wicked and were judged on other things.... but the fact is that God doesn't judge people by your standards or mine... He judges JUSTLY by the standards that HE ALONE is capable of justly making.

Also please note that in your references: John 8:24, Luke 13:3 the writer is speaking to someone who HAS heard the name of Jesus and who He is, and thus having heard they must make a descision. I know that what I'm writing is different from what a lot of people have been taught, so it's hard to accept... but it isn't me saying it, it's God in the Bible.

As for the Heros of the Faith in the Old Testement, I do of course believe that they went to Heaven (after Jesus' sacrifice)... it was just that you had said ealier that no one could go to Heaven unless they believe in "JESUS" and I was pointing out that by that premise none of those people could go because they had never heard of His exact name.... plus you posted a bunch of stuff like:

This says, if you weren't saved you go to hell. Notice how you cannot become saved without knowing and beleving in Jesus.

Which would exclude anyone who died before Jesus was around, which I knew wasn't true.


All truth... all that is good... all the light that men have, comes from God. If a person only gets a little tiny bit of light and yet they hunger and thrist after it and desire to know righteousness then that is what God judges them on... not the fact that they only had a little bit of truth shown them, but what they did with the truth they received. The greater burden is on those who live in the industrialize world and have Bibles all over the place and a church on every corner, because Jesus says:

LK 12:47 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Joe

 

[Netopia]

You posted the following showing that God punishes people for the sins of their fathers:

Exodus 20:5 ...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

Personally I believe that God is speaking a truism about bad behaviour. If someone doens't go by God's way of doing things (like being a wife beater, or a drug addict, or a drunk, or lazy...) then those sins will be typically carried forwad by following generations. Appearently those of Israel took it your way though because later God had to clarify that your definition is NOT what he meant:


(comment added)
EZE 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

" `The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'? (i.e. the children suffer for the actions of the fathers)

EZE 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.


That cleared the matter up for the Israelites, hope it does for you too!

It's a quarter to one... I've got to get to bed. G'nite.

Joe

 

[petrek]

Melchoir, were you implying by your above statements that everybody pre 33AD (or there abouts) is in hell?

Dave

 

[melchoir]

What you have shown is that those who are unaware of God or Christ will be judged differently, this does not mean they are saved. I may have been wrong in thinking those go straight to Hell, but it doesn't say they will enter heaven, or are saved. Just judged differently.

You posted the following showing that God punishes people for the sins of their fathers:


Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exodus 20:5 ...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I believe that God is speaking a truism about bad behaviour. If someone doens't go by God's way of doing things (like being a wife beater, or a drug addict, or a drunk, or lazy...) then those sins will be typically carried forwad by following generations.

I added that to show the "trusim" that you speak of for

Being born into a people group that does not have the gospel is a key factor in people not hearing the gospel. It is inevitable that children suffer for the sins of their parents

Now who wants to prove Jesus even existed? =)

 

[melchoir]

Melchoir, were you implying by your above statements that everybody pre 33AD (or there abouts) is in hell?

No, they were judged by the faith they put into the "True" god.

 

[Harabecw]

suppose some of this is true, lets say I'm supposed to go to heaven, but decide I'll have a great time in hell. can I choose to go there instead?