AGNOSTIC Accountability Groups Starting Up

[crabbyman]

No..believe me...he doesn't like that I gave up on Christianity...but he respects my opinions and thought even if he doesn't agree.

 

[OITLadyOwl]

This is the site for the International Shinto Foundation, and it's helped me out a lot.

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: iwearnosox

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmsclAnyway, if you had the slightest idea of what you're talking about (which you obviously don't) you'd be aware that there actually is scientific fact to back up some of creationisim.

You clearly haven't a CLUE what you're talking about. There is an overwhelming body of evidence that suggests that the events involved in creationism are essentially IMPLAUSIBLE. For instance, how can another human being develop from a rib? If Eve were derived from Adam's rib, for instance, she would have to have IDENTICAL DNA, given our established understanding of cellular division and human development. However, in order for Eve to be a woman, she would have to have XX sex chromosomes in her somatic cells...IMPOSSIBLE because Adam has XY sex chromosomes. Secondly, this has NEVER been observed, nor is there ANY conceivable scientific explanation for how a human being can be grown from a rib. Again, science is the process of formulating hypotheses and testing them with empiric observations and experimentation in order to form new hypotheses and theories. The bible and its corresponding creationist explanation is NOT the product of this scientific method and is therefore NOT supported by "scientific fact." The reason you've come up with such nonsense is that somewhere along the line, some Christian authority has spoonfed this idea and you have accepted it blindly without verification. Any "C" student at a half-rate high school in South Central could tell you that creationism is NOT science-based, but faith-based.

Btw, feel free to criticize my "rhetoric" if you like but at least I've progressed past the age of 12 where "you suck" can be used as a way to get your point across. Although it was very convincing

I got news for you, buddy: your "rhetoric "and "you suck" are about equally effective.

Valsalva

 

[crabbyman]

I want to thank you OITLadyOwl... I will ready this later. I really appreciate it!

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Here's what I think...
God didn't give you a Bible (How would your mother feel if that popped out?). He gave you a brain.

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl
Ok, homework assignment for you as well. Go find a post of mine proclaiming myself to be christian. Good luck though as I highly doubt you'll find one since that's not me.

Well then, why don't you tell us what faith you subscribe to...I'm thinking you belong to one of the bible-bearing religions given your blind faith of the bible & creationism, your stubborness, and your awe-inspiring judgmental nature.

Valsalva

 

[OITLadyOwl]

You're very welcome. There's a "What is Shinto" link right on the main site, that gives a very basic outline of Shinto and its origins. If you'd like more info you can contact the ISF directly through that site, as well.

Go-kigen yo! (Japanese: "Best Regards!")

 

[flxnimprtmscl]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl
Ok, homework assignment for you as well. Go find a post of mine proclaiming myself to be christian. Good luck though as I highly doubt you'll find one since that's not me.

Well then, why don't you tell us what faith you subscribe to...I'm thinking you belong to one of the bible-bearing religions given your blind faith of the bible & creationism, your stubborness, and your awe-inspiring judgmental nature.

Valsalva

No faith. Sorry to burst your bubble. I do belive there is a God but I don't subscribe to any particular religion, read the bible, or go to church. Frankly I'm just the same as most of you aside from the fact that I belive in God. Well, also the fact that I don't get joy out of pissing on a persons faith.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Here's what I think...
God didn't give you a Bible (How would your mother feel if that popped out?). He gave you a brain.

This does not seem the case either with a lot of people

As I don't feel unsure about my (dis-)believe I dont feel the need to join a group. Disproving the validity of the Bible is easy enough and has been done over and over again, but hardcore Christians will just ignore all the arguments that conflict with their believe anyway. The Quran is more interesting in that way, and conflicts in it are often a matter of interpretation and translation, but I'm going to learn Arabic someday so I can argue better about it.

 

[iwearnosox]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Here's what I think...
God didn't give you a Bible (How would your mother feel if that popped out?). He gave you a brain.

He's also given many people the crabs. Fear God. :beer:

 

[lameaway]

So i came into this thread hoping for some good discussion on agnosticism and the state of disbeleif in general, something i've recently been grappling with. But instead, i see an atheist-christian bash-fest. You people realize, i'm sure, that agnosticism does require you to accept that christianity and many other religions may, in in fact, be true. Anything must be accepted as a possibility that adequately explains your existence... i could tell you that we're all living in some sort of computer simulation and you cannot prove otherwise. I could tell you that i dont really exist as a sentinent being like you do, and you couldn't prove me wrong. Of course, i DO exist, i'm rather certain about that, but i cant prove that conclusively to you. Hence, i don't see why everyone is trying to disprove the bible with sources that are no more valid at a fundamental level than the bible itself... those who do i would consider believers, firm beleivers in some version of reality that explicitly excludes a certain set of possibilities.

Maybe this is why few dip very far into agnosticism. It's a lot easier just not to think about it :Q

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: lameaway
So i came into this thread hoping for some good discussion on agnosticism and the state of disbeleif in general, something i've recently been grappling with. But instead, i see an atheist-christian bash-fest. You people realize, i'm sure, that agnosticism does require you to accept that christianity and many other religions may, in in fact, be true. Anything must be accepted as a possibility that adequately explains your existence... i could tell you that we're all living in some sort of computer simulation and you cannot prove otherwise. I could tell you that i dont really exist as a sentinent being like you do, and you couldn't prove me wrong. Of course, i DO exist, i'm rather certain about that, but i cant prove that conclusively to you. Hence, i don't see why everyone is trying to disprove the bible with sources that are no more valid at a fundamental level than the bible itself... those who do i would consider believers, firm beleivers in some version of reality that explicitly excludes a certain set of possibilities.

Maybe this is why few dip very far into agnosticism. It's a lot easier just not to think about it :Q

You make a valid point, lameaway, but even though it is impossible to PROVE or DISPROVE the various accounts of our existence (be it creationism, evolution, or whatever), it is still possible to decide that certain theories are more PLAUSIBLE than others. The way we do this rationally and objectively is by considering how much of each theory is CONSISTENT with observable natural phenomena and scientific understanding and how much forces us to ASSUME something we cannot prove. I've found that much of Christianity is based on a series of unfalsifiable claims. These are assertions that can range from somewhat to extremely ludicrous, but by definition, cannot be disproven. For instance: There is a pig sitting behind you right now. Well how come I can't see it? Because it's invisible. Well how come when I take a step backwards I don't step on him? Because the instant you step backwards, the pig moves out of the way. Well how come I can't smell him? Because the pig just took a bath. This can go on and on...and there's really no way to disprove the existence of the pig. You can't. I can keep going with the unfalsifiable claims. So how do we decided that the alternate theory "that there is no pig sitting behind you." is more plausible? Simple: because my theory is SIMPLER (i.e. we utilize Occam's Razor) and forces me to assume less things that are not observable or verifiable phenomena (i.e. that pigs can be invisible). The same goes with Christianity. It would certainly be nice to BELIEVE by FAITH that woman originated from Adam's rib and that evil is derived from eating a bad apple, but this is the same line of ridiculous reasoning I used in arguing that there was that invisible pig standing behind you.

Valsalva

 

[lameaway]

why do you beleive in occam's razor?

 

[BatmanNate]

This thread was also difficult to masturbate to.

 

[lameaway]

So after thinking about it a bit more, i've come to a conclusion. I fail. I don't understand life. Oh well, time to retreat back into my little menal hidey-hole of reality.... but it always bothers me that reality as i usually choose to see it is no more inherently logical than religion or even Mr. Pig...

 

[petrek]

Evil is disobedience to God. The only thing that Adam was told not to do in the Garden of Eden was eat the fruit of that one tree...spiritual and physical death were the result of his sin (disobedience to God) which affected every living thing thereafter...thus the need for a Savior...thus the birth, death, and bodily resurection of Jesus Christ.

D

 

[dighn]

what exactly is agnostic? i dont believe there is/are a God/gods, but I don't rule out entirely the possibility either. am I agnostic? kinda fits with the dictionary meaning but it seems kind of focused on christianity.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: dighn
what exactly is agnostic? i dont believe there is/are a God/gods, but I don't rule out entirely the possibility either. am I agnostic? kinda fits with the dictionary meaning but it seems kind of focused on christianity.

The focus on Christianity is because most people in the Western world have had a Christian upbringing. That's why a lot of Christians start screaming 'atheists' if agnosts say they do not believe in the Bible, as that does not exclude other religions in itself, but religious people tend to not look to other religions that much in the first place.

I think most religious books are just a bunch of faerie tales meant to explain what the people in those days couldn't, and as a way to set mankind above other animals, because 'we have souls and go to heaven'...

To petrek: So according to the Bible we are still being punished for the deeds of Adam & Eve? So God is an unjust sadist, who likes to punish people for deeds they themselves did not commit? Doesn't really sound like the loving, caring, fair god Christians claim him to be eh?

 

[OokiiNeko]

So i came into this thread hoping for some good discussion on agnosticism and the state of disbeleif in general, something i've recently been grappling with.

Some people have grappled with that all their life.

I'd rather turn this discussion towards stuff that can't be explained. Such as:

That staircase that was built without nails and hasn't aged. What's that about?

The Brazilian (well, South American anyway) doctor who heals people no one else can. How does he do it?

For my lack of links, I ask your forgiveness.

 

[Palek]

Dear Valsalva, I just call it as I see it. Let's review:

If you are not a Christian, please be respectful and courteous and not flame in this thread. If you are not a Christian and would like to have a serious discussion (not a flame war) on the basics of Christianity, then please PM me.

vs.

If you are agnostic this is the place for you. If you are a Christian and would like to have a serious discussion that's okay, but remember you have to be reasonable.

So far so good, both initiators were very polite and considerate.

I decided to start this thread because I realize that there are quite a few born again Christians on this forum. I thought it would be a good idea if we were to start up an accountability/prayer partner program. I would pair up members on the forum, and each member would talk with their partner on a regular basis about their walk with Christ. This way we can remain accountable, as it is easy to stray from our path. We will be able to pray for each other.

vs.

I decided to start this thread because I realize that there are quite a few born again Christians on this forum and many of them like to discuss their religion with non-believers. I thought it would be a good idea if we were to start up an accountability based on nothing divine or God inspired, but on man alone. .

I'd even call this reasonable, were it not for the slightly sarcastic and paranoid overtone. And then QT's politeness ends and the nastiness begins.

Some topics of accountability may include:
Reading our Bibles
Sexual Purity (this one is a biggie)
Keeping the Commandments/Sinning in general

vs.

Some topics of accountability may include:
Discussing the validity of the Bible
Sexual ImPurity (this one is a biggie)
General Logical Thinking

Do I really need to point out why I found this part cynical and anti-Christian?

Could he be saying that Christian morals are illogical? But doesn't that mean he is refusing to accept Christian morals as a valid alternative? That's not very nice from a supposedly tolerant Agnostic or whatever he claims to be/not be...

It will be a great way for us Christians to share experiences, discuss belief systems, and help one another.

vs.

It will be a great way for us Agnostics to share experiences, discuss nonbelief systems, and help one another.

Whatever...

Maybe I do not have a firm grasp on the English language or I misunderstood the "subtle" nuances of QT's text, but it's hard to miss the sarcasm and animosity towards all things Christian.

I think it's fantastic that you're starting up these groups, QT. It think it's about time the agnostics and athesists of AT have a voice, before Anandtech turns into JesusTech. It's simply unfair that certain religious groups can start their own threads and exclude other groups just because they don't believe in Jesus and the other 2/3 of the Trinity. It's amazing how pervasive the Christians are in our lives. Through their exclusive networks and hand-holding unity, they've joined forces to alter national policy and affect the lives of everyone, even the non-Christians.

What are you talking about? You must be either extremely paranoid or, like I said, extremely biased and full of hatred towards Christians. You make it sound like Christians are an overwhelming majority on AT (that's a funny one) and agnostics/atheists are oppressed and discouraged from voicing their opinions. We all know it's the other way around. As soon as a Christian tries to post something remotely connected to his/her faith, the paranoid anti-Christian kiddies jump in and unleash a barrage of hatred and kill any hope for intelligent discussion by spewing ignorant and intolerant remarks.

Why is it unfair that a group of Christians want to start an accountability group and politely ask people to stay outside if they are not interested? Do you even know what holding each other accountable means for Christians? It means that two individuals share about their daily struggles, their spiritual walk, and encourage, support each other. Why do you, as a person who has no respect for their faith, want any part of that? What exactly do you have to contribute to such a fellowship other than judgment and criticism? Oh, and why exactly were private topics created? The author of the original post clearly stated that the discussion would be continued in a private topic once enough members joined. Noone was trying to convert anyone. In fact, the author tried to keep it low-profile.

This pervasiveness you mention... For every faith-related post there are hundreds of posts about porn, cheating on significant others, and other forms of adultery. While I do wish there was less of the latter, I do want to ban it, and in fact would fight to maintain freedom of speech on this public forum. If anything, the sick, miserable culture of our times is pervasive enough to drown out any voices that try to be different. And yet, you seem to be dissatisfied until everyone who utters the name of God or Jesus is squashed.

I think it is mighty presumptuous of you to call this a hate group...in fact, compared to the CHRISTIAN accountability thread, we're actually opening it up to everyone and encouraging discussion from any faith. Do you hear anyone whining about the Christian people coming in and spoiling things? Absolutely not! Cuz we're not like that!! OTOH, I notice that you've come in and already judged everyone...which somehow is not surprising.

Well, see, I did make a judgment about the motive of the originator and some of the enthusiastic participants, but not your person. Call it what you want, but the first two posts, namely QT's and yours, sum up your goal quite nicely. Allow me to paraphrase: "Whoa, there are Christians here, and they want to talk to EACH OTHER about faith and stuff, let us summon all the agnostics/atheists, yell that Christians have NO RIGHT to gather, then proceed to yell louder and spew filth so they have no chance of being heard." Major case of paranoia, sir.

However ,the most ironic thing you wrote was "grow up and learn to accept people with different faiths/opinions"...when in reality, it's the Christian faith that teaches its followers NOT to accept people of different faith because they are infidels and are all going to hell..in fact, Christianity teaches its believers to CONVERT people of other faiths, which is the epitome if disrespect for dissimilar beliefs, if you ask me.

I cannot deny, Jesus did say that He was the only way to salvation and eternal life. However, this is what Christians BELIEVE in, they accept this as TRUTH. It is the foundation of their faith. They cannot change that. You are also quite a bit off on one point. While Christ said that He was The Way, He also said He welcomed anyone with open arms, with no strings attached. Yes, Christianity is quite arrogant in some respects, but it is also a faith of unconditional acceptance. The thing is, you cannot say to a believer of any religion/God, "Well, I think your faith stinks, I want you to change it." For one, there is that great American idea called "freedom of religion".

Then there is the fact that Christians have first-hand encounters with their God which is undeniable proof for them of God's existence. For them God's existence is Truth, it is Reality. The God they know personally tells them there is no other God. How could they, then, go on to accept that other religions could be true?

The other important point I need to make is that you ASSUME that agnostics are trying to "change" people (well, that's what you wrote)...no, sorry, we're not. The whole notion of "changing" people is a CHRISTIAN one, and undoubtedly represents your mentality when it comes to religion -- this is why you wrote about this concept, when in fact nobody here has suggested anything abotu changing anyone.

Well, my assumption seems to be correct. YOU are trying to change me. When you try to stop me or my fellow Christians from speaking freely about our faith, you are trying to change us. Not only that, you are also being disrespectful yourself. It is fine to listen then respectfully disagree, but to incite hatred, rally opposition and drown out the voices of a minority, that is disrespectful, tyrannical and, borrowing your words, UNFAIR. We all try to shape and mold people to our likeness, whether it is intentional or subconscious. Some Christians take it too far, I know, and I feel deeply sorry about that. I try not be too much in other people's faces about my faith. What I am doing right now is standing up for my right to voice my opinions, which many of you are trying to take away, whether you admit it or not.

So, I could be wrong in presuming that there is a great deal of animosity towards Christians on this board, and that this thread was created as a gathering spot for the spiteful, but I do fear that I am right...

 

[Mucho]

I hope you can help me brothers and sisters, I need help dealing with my morbid fear of Christians, I feel they want to slay me and seal my soul.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Originally posted by: dighn
what exactly is agnostic? i dont believe there is/are a God/gods, but I don't rule out entirely the possibility either. am I agnostic? kinda fits with the dictionary meaning but it seems kind of focused on christianity.

Yeah, you're an agnostic. Yes, you're kind of Christianity biased, but that's because you live in the western world. If you were in India or Malaysia or Japan or Egypt, you'd probably be a little more focused on a different religion.

Mucho - haha that's good.

 

[dighn]

Originally posted by: TheBoyBlunder

Originally posted by: dighn
what exactly is agnostic? i dont believe there is/are a God/gods, but I don't rule out entirely the possibility either. am I agnostic? kinda fits with the dictionary meaning but it seems kind of focused on christianity.

Yeah, you're an agnostic. Yes, you're kind of Christianity biased, but that's because you live in the western world. If you were in India or Malaysia or Japan or Egypt, you'd probably be a little more focused on a different religion.

I see. Btw I was saying the dictionary meaning was kind of Christianity biased

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: TheBoyBlunder

Originally posted by: dighn
what exactly is agnostic? i dont believe there is/are a God/gods, but I don't rule out entirely the possibility either. am I agnostic? kinda fits with the dictionary meaning but it seems kind of focused on christianity.

Yeah, you're an agnostic. Yes, you're kind of Christianity biased, but that's because you live in the western world. If you were in India or Malaysia or Japan or Egypt, you'd probably be a little more focused on a different religion.

I see. Btw I was saying the dictionary meaning was kind of Christianity biased

Perhaps the dictionary was written bij Christians?

This definition doesn't focus on Christianity.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: TheBoyBlunder

Originally posted by: dighn
what exactly is agnostic? i dont believe there is/are a God/gods, but I don't rule out entirely the possibility either. am I agnostic? kinda fits with the dictionary meaning but it seems kind of focused on christianity.

Yeah, you're an agnostic. Yes, you're kind of Christianity biased, but that's because you live in the western world. If you were in India or Malaysia or Japan or Egypt, you'd probably be a little more focused on a different religion.

I see. Btw I was saying the dictionary meaning was kind of Christianity biased

Perhaps the dictionary was written bij Christians?

This definition doesn't focus on Christianity.

Yeah...it's 6 am and I'm still posting. Give me a break lol.