AGNOSTIC Accountability Groups Starting Up

[TheBoyBlunder]

Suddenly I realized that I don't really give a sh!t what anyone thinks about my choice of religions. I was raised a Catholic, but I'm going to live an agnostic and likely die an agnostic. (that means that unlike some people on this thread and forum I'm open to other possibilities). If any Christians don't like it, that's nice, they can go jump off a bridge for all I care. You leave me alone with my agnosticism, I'll leave you alone with your beliefs, whatever they may be (unless they're an obvious danger to yourself or others, like Charley Manson's cult), ok?

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocateActually, I did address your point. There are appellate judges that can order the judge to remove the plaque.

You didn't address jack -- you only THINK you did...that's the beauty of convincing yourself that something is true when it clearly isn't to any objective bystander. His point was that it is highly unlikely that a judge can be impartial on Christian-related issues when has a huge plaque of the ten commandments hanging over him. Whether or not there are appellate judges is absolutely 100% irrelevant and constitutes a "WTF argument" (which is defined as 2 notches worse than a non sequitur).

Valsalva only posts in these threads.

Another example of convincing yourself that something is true when it is clearly inconsistent with reality. These are called "delusions" and are suggestive of an underlying psychotic disorder. This might be big news for you, DA (which can stand for something else other than DevilsAdvocate), but I have posted in many different threads, not only "these threads." If you do a search for my name on AT, you'll find that I post in all sorts of threads...only you'll still come to the same conclusion because you are clearly delusional.

He is not content to let people be, and screams when someone says boo to him.

Another delusion. In contrast, I merely point out some of the the inconsistency and illogic that some people post here..."screaming" is a highly inaccurate word choice and I think it represents your word-finding ability combined with your delusional disorder.

I just don't understand why you have to pick on one faith.

You don't understand because you choose not to. It is very clearly explained in my post up top and by several others why the Christians of AT get "picked on." ...but next time you see your fellow Christian harassing a non-Christian to convert...or dressed in a suit knocking on someone's door, ask yourself who's picking on whom? On second thought don't, because you delusional state will prevent you from seeing the truth, just as it has right now.

Valsalva

Hey I corrected some more spelling errors for you.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: Palek
Well, my sarcasm meter exploded after reading the initial post.

Way to go guys, a "hate group" is just what was missing from this message board. I would not find your idea repulsive if your motives weren't so blatantly obvious. Starting a discussion about stem-cell research, abortion, etc. - I think that would be great. Even though these issues have been discussed before, it does not mean that everything that could be said has been said. But to start a support group for folks that hate/oppose Christians, now that is just juvenile and pathetic. Grow up and learn to accept people with different faiths/opinions. And if you really want to change them, you have to be a LOT more tactful. "You are stupid and I hate everything you stand for" just will not convince most intelligent people.

I think it is mighty presumptuous of you to call this a hate group...in fact, compared to the CHRISTIAN accountability thread, we're actually opening it up to everyone and encouraging discussion from any faith. Do you hear anyone whining about the Christian people coming in and spoiling things? Absolutely not! Cuz we're not like that!! OTOH, I notice that you've come in and already judged everyone...which somehow is not surprising.

However ,the most ironic thing you wrote was "grow up and learn to accept people with different faiths/opinions"...when in reality, it's the Christian faith that teaches its followers NOT to accept people of different faith because they are infidels and are all going to hell..in fact, Christianity teaches its believers to CONVERT people of other faiths, which is the epitome if disrespect for dissimilar beliefs, if you ask me. The other important point I need to make is that you ASSUME that agnostics are trying to "change" people (well, that's what you wrote)...no, sorry, we're not. The whole notion of "changing" people is a CHRISTIAN one, and undoubtedly represents your mentality when it comes to religion -- this is why you wrote about this concept, when in fact nobody here has suggested anything about changing anyone.

Valsalva

I corrected another few typos for you, and also saw that you are using "immature syntax" and "acronyms." I wish someone would punch your arrogant ass.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl
Ok, homework assignment for you as well. Go find a post of mine proclaiming myself to be christian. Good luck though as I highly doubt you'll find one since that's not me.

Well then, why don't you tell us what faith you subscribe to...I'm thinking you belong to one of the bible-bearing religions given your blind faith of the bible & creationism, your stubbornness, and your awe-inspiring judgmental nature.

Valsalva

Corrected another spelling mistake for you. This is getting fun!

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: lameaway
So i came into this thread hoping for some good discussion on agnosticism and the state of disbeleif in general, something i've recently been grappling with. But instead, i see an atheist-christian bash-fest. You people realize, i'm sure, that agnosticism does require you to accept that christianity and many other religions may, in in fact, be true. Anything must be accepted as a possibility that adequately explains your existence... i could tell you that we're all living in some sort of computer simulation and you cannot prove otherwise. I could tell you that i dont really exist as a sentinent being like you do, and you couldn't prove me wrong. Of course, i DO exist, i'm rather certain about that, but i cant prove that conclusively to you. Hence, i don't see why everyone is trying to disprove the bible with sources that are no more valid at a fundamental level than the bible itself... those who do i would consider believers, firm beleivers in some version of reality that explicitly excludes a certain set of possibilities.

Maybe this is why few dip very far into agnosticism. It's a lot easier just not to think about it :Q

You make a valid point, lameaway, but even though it is impossible to PROVE or DISPROVE the various accounts of our existence (be it creationism, evolution, or whatever), it is still possible to decide that certain theories are more PLAUSIBLE than others. The way we do this rationally and objectively is by considering how much of each theory is CONSISTENT with observable natural phenomena and scientific understanding and how much forces us to ASSUME something we cannot prove. I've found that much of Christianity is based on a series of unfalsifiable claims. These are assertions that can range from somewhat to extremely ludicrous, but by definition, cannot be disproved. For instance: There is a pig sitting behind you right now. Well how come I can't see it? Because it's invisible. Well how come when I take a step backward I don't step on him? Because the instant you step backward, the pig moves out of the way. Well how come I can't smell him? Because the pig just took a bath. This can go on and on...and there's really no way to disprove the existence of the pig. You can't. I can keep going with the unfalsifiable claims. So how do we decided that the alternate theory "that there is no pig sitting behind you." is more plausible? Simple: because my theory is SIMPLER (i.e. we utilize Occam's Razor) and forces me to assume less things that are not observable or verifiable phenomena (i.e. that pigs can be invisible). The same goes with Christianity. It would certainly be nice to BELIEVE by FAITH that woman originated from Adam's rib and that evil is derived from eating a bad apple, but this is the same line of ridiculous reasoning I used in arguing that there was that invisible pig standing behind you.

Valsalva

I corrected some more grammar and spelling issues for you.

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: PalekWhat are you talking about? You must be either extremely paranoid or, like I said, extremely biased and full of hatred towards Christians.

That is clearly an opinion and unsubstantiated by fact. You cannot quote a few lines and draw a completely ludicrous conclusion from it. This isn't Sunday School.

You make it sound like Christians are an overwhelming majority on AT (that's a funny one) and agnostics/atheists are oppressed and discouraged from voicing their opinions.

Link Christians are the most common religion here and outnumber any other group by at leaset a factor of 2-3. Christians are the ONLY group I've seen attempting to systematically convert anyone they can into their religoin, reminiscent of the "Borg."

We all know it's the other way around. As soon as a Christian tries to post something remotely connected to his/her faith, the paranoid anti-Christian kiddies jump in and unleash a barrage of hatred and kill any hope for intelligent discussion by spewing ignorant and intolerant remarks.

This is because people here are RESENTFUL of the continuous barrage of Christian attempts at recruitment, especially over in hot deals where the deals are not hot, just more annoying attempts of Christians to "spread the word." On the other hand, it was the CHRISTIAN accountability thread that specifically requested that only CHRISTIANS could participate...Metalloid even, at one point, specifically asked people who were agnostic to leave.

Why is it unfair that a group of Christians want to start an accountability group and politely ask people to stay outside if they are not interested? Do you even know what holding each other accountable means for Christians? It means that two individuals share about their daily struggles, their spiritual walk, and encourage, support each other. Why do you, as a person who has no respect for their faith, want any part of that? What exactly do you have to contribute to such a fellowship other than judgment and criticism?

It is unfair to exclude certain groups because this is Anandtech, not ChristianTech. Agnostic people may not have wanted to participate i nthe actualy accountabilty GROUPS, and naturally, nobody asked to join...however, many people wanted to participate i nthe actual THREAD because ATOT is open to the public, not Christians only.

Noone was trying to convert anyone. In fact, the author tried to keep it low-profile.

WRONG AGAIN!! Direct quote from Metalloid, the original poster of that thread: "The thing is that I don't know all of the people who are Christians on this forum, and I would really like to spread it to non-Christians."

This pervasiveness you mention... For every faith-related post there are hundreds of posts about porn, cheating on significant others, and other forms of adultery. While I do wish there was less of the latter, I do want to ban it, and in fact would fight to maintain freedom of speech on this public forum. If anything, the sick, miserable culture of our times is pervasive enough to drown out any voices that try to be different. And yet, you seem to be dissatisfied until everyone who utters the name of God or Jesus is squashed.

You think posts about porn, cheating, and adultery are digusting?? I think watching millions of people with failing hearts, lungs, and kidneys DIE a miserable death while hooked up to ventilators, central lines, catheters, etc. as their families crowd over their bedside in tears...and then I watch religious leaders in our country advocating AGAINST stem-cell research which has the potential to ultimately provide life-saving rejection-free organ transplants. I see children and young adults in wheelchairs because they're paralyzed from the waste down...their legs atrophied from disuse, their behinds plagued with pressure ulcers and stool because they are incontinent. And you know what? Then I see the religious majority in this country preach about how their religion admonishes stem-cell research, imposing their views at the detriment of millions of Americans. And you complain about a few discussion threads about porn and cheating???

Well, see, I did make a judgment about the motive of the originator and some of the enthusiastic participants, but not your person. Call it what you want, but the first two posts, namely QT's and yours, sum up your goal quite nicely. Allow me to paraphrase: "Whoa, there are Christians here, and they want to talk to EACH OTHER about faith and stuff, let us summon all the agnostics/atheists, yell that Christians have NO RIGHT to gather, then proceed to yell louder and spew filth so they have no chance of being heard." Major case of paranoia, sir.

Your conclusion might have merit to yourself, but once again, there is no relationship between what you've concluded and reality. In Sunday School, the cool thing to do is take a simple statement or set of circumstances and make up a fancy-dancy story behind it that makes sense and cannot be disproven. This is exactly what you've done here. You've overinterpreted the situation and even decided to yourself that we're paranoid. Ironically, paranoia is a symptom of a psychotic disorder, and since you demonstrate DELUSIONS, you might actually have one too.

Yes, Christianity is quite arrogant in some respects,

Quite.

The thing is, you cannot say to a believer of any religion/God, "Well, I think your faith stinks, I want you to change it." For one, there is that great American idea called "freedom of religion".

WRONG AGAIN!!! "Freedom of religion" only implies that the government cannot restrict the practice of religion...I, as a citizen, can say almost whatever I want regarding your particular religion as part of Freedom of SPEECH.

Then there is the fact that Christians have first-hand encounters with their God which is undeniable proof for them of God's existence. For them God's existence is Truth, it is Reality. The God they know personally tells them there is no other God.

No, they only THINK they've had first-hand encounters with God. Do you know the fairy tale of Henny Penny? An acorn fell on Henny Penny's head, but she (being only a chicken) thought that the sky was falling..so she told all of her farm arnimal friends that the sky was falling, and they blindly believed her...so they all ran around until the fox ate them. That's Christianity...you have people who are so caught up in their blind faith that when something remotely unexplainable occurs, they automatically assume it's God, Jesus, whoever...just like Henny Penny thought the acorn was really the sky falling.

Well, my assumption seems to be correct. YOU are trying to change me. When you try to stop me or my fellow Christians from speaking freely about our faith, you are trying to change us.

See, there you go with your delusions again. At what point did I attempt to STOP fellow "Christians from speaking freely about their faith?" That's only a concept that YOU concocted in your head...again, it has no bearing on reality.

Not only that, you are also being disrespectful yourself. It is fine to listen then respectfully disagree, but to incite hatred, rally opposition and drown out the voices of a minority, that is disrespectful, tyrannical and, borrowing your words, UNFAIR.

Woh...who is attempting to "incite hatred" and "rally opposition and drown out the voices of a minority"??????
Now THAT is PARANOID!!!!!!!!! Christians frequently project their own thoughts and emotions onto other people as part of a Freudian psychological defense mechanism. In this case, you have clearly PROJECTED your own paranoia onto me!!!

Valsalva

 

[Mill]

BTW, Christianity is the number 1 religion in America, but not in the world.

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: Millennium

I corrected some more grammar and spelling issues for you.

I corrected another spelling mistake for you. This is getting fun!

Hey I corrected some more spelling errors for you.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by correcting my typos. Doing so does NOT at all change the fact that your unsophisticated diction and simplistic arguments do NOT justify you calling other people here a "moron." Furthermore, considering the childish nature of posting the equivalent of "hehe, i just corrected some of your typos, i'm so smart!!" only further reinforces you immaturity. I'm not sure what you're trying go accomplish, but you only strengthens the conclusions that were drawn about you earlier. What grade are you in? I would guess 10th.

I corrected another few typos for you, and also saw that you are using "immature syntax" and "acronyms." I wish someone would punch your arrogant ass.

Whoops. There we go again..."I wish someone would punch your arrogant ass." It's a shame that people in this country feel the need to resort to violence when their inadequacy prevents them from discussing a matter appropriately or they have anger management issues. Sometimes violent people have violent parents...or grow up around violence. It's difficult to fault these people for their behavioral tendencies, but at the same time, there's really no excuse when people's tempers get out of control. The world has enough problems as it is.

Valsalva

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: Millennium

I corrected some more grammar and spelling issues for you.

I corrected another spelling mistake for you. This is getting fun!

Hey I corrected some more spelling errors for you.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by correcting my typos. Doing so does NOT at all change the fact that your unsophisticated diction and simplistic arguments do NOT justify you calling other people here a "moron." Furthermore, considering the childish nature of posting the equivalent of "hehe, i just corrected some of your typos, i'm so smart!!" only further reinforces you immaturity. I'm not sure what you're trying go accomplish, but you only strengthens the conclusions that were drawn about you earlier. What grade are you in? I would guess 10th.

I corrected another few typos for you, and also saw that you are using "immature syntax" and "acronyms." I wish someone would punch your arrogant ass.

Whoops. There we go again..."I wish someone would punch your arrogant ass." It's a shame that people in this country feel the need to resort to violence when their inadequacy prevents them from discussing a matter appropriately or they have anger management issues. Sometimes violent people have violent parents...or grow up around violence. It's difficult to fault these people for their behavioral tendencies, but at the same time, there's really no excuse when people's tempers get out of control. The world has enough problems as it is.

Valsalva

Please try not to remove the closing tag for italic when quoting.

And Millenium, if you'd actually count the people who practice their religion rather than just 'being Christian cause my family is' chances are high Christianity won't score that high in the USA anymore either. But most people follow a religion because they are born into it, or because they wanted to impress/marry someone who was a member of such a religion, so the total number of truly religious people in the world will probably be less than 10%.

 

[QTArrhythmic]

Originally posted by: Palek
Well, my sarcasm meter exploded after reading the initial post.

Way to go guys, a "hate group" is just what was missing from this message board. I would not find your idea repulsive if your motives weren't so blatantly obvious. Starting a discussion about stem-cell research, abortion, etc. - I think that would be great. Even though these issues have been discussed before, it does not mean that everything that could be said has been said. But to start a support group for folks that hate/oppose Christians, now that is just juvenile and pathetic. Grow up and learn to accept people with different faiths/opinions. And if you really want to change them, you have to be a LOT more tactful. "You are stupid and I hate everything you stand for" just will not convince most intelligent people.

I believe you are mistaken. This is for polite discussion only, not hating, no flamming. Everyone is welcome, and along with various points of view. You should be lucky we live in a democratic society that allows for this.

I'm sorry this offends you.

 

[Jzero]

Where do you get this crap about Christians knocking on your door on Sunday? I have never EVER seen this. The only group that does that is the Jehovah's Witnesses and A) they DON'T do it on Sunday b/c they don't do ANYTHING on Sunday and B) it's debatable whether they even fall under the blanket of Christianity.

Who is paranoid here?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Originally posted by: TheBDB

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Originally posted by: iwearnosox
Evolution = years of science, pointing conclusively to the fact that people evolved. Yes, I said fact.
Creationism = religous based hypothysis that people were somehow created by a God.

Don't try to disprove one wrong by pointing to another. Creationism is religous in nature and has no place in public schools. There is no arguement available to invalidate this.

Why do you suck? Because even in the face of logical discussions and fact you still depend on rhetoric to somehow prove your point. All is does is prove your inability to think in a logical manner.

"Try to disprove one wrong"? Double negatives make my head hurt. Learn english please. Anyway, if you had the slightest idea of what you're talking about (which you obviously don't) you'd be aware that there actually is scientific fact to back up some of creationisim. There's also scientific fact that is contradictory to creationisim. Exactly the same way that there is plenty of scientific fact to prove evolution and there is also scientific fact that is contradictory to evolution. But arguing with someone who think's theory is absolute is pointless.

Btw, feel free to criticize my "rhetoric" if you like but at least I've progressed past the age of 12 where "you suck" can be used as a way to get your point across. Although it was very convincing

Your knowledge of english far outweighs your knowledge of science.

Ok, so I'll let you be the one to prove what I've said wrong. Here's your homework assignment for the evening.

1) I said that there are areas of creationisim that have been scientificly proven. Prove that false for me.
2) I said there are areas of creationisim that run contradictory to science. Prove that wrong as well.
3) I said there is a good deal of scientific fact to back up evolution. Please prove this one wrong also.
4) I said that there are areas of evolution that run contrary to science. Prove that wrong for me too.

There you go. That's your job for the night. Don't bother posting until you've disproved at least one. Also please do a good job because I have facts to back up each one of those statements and you will be graded on this. If you're unable to do so I suppose you have no idea what my knowledge of science is.

Hold on there Bumble Thump, you were the one who said there was scientific proof to back up creationism so it should be up to you to back your highly suspect assertion

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl
Ok, homework assignment for you as well. Go find a post of mine proclaiming myself to be christian. Good luck though as I highly doubt you'll find one since that's not me.

Well then, why don't you tell us what faith you subscribe to...I'm thinking you belong to one of the bible-bearing religions given your blind faith of the bible & creationism, your stubborness, and your awe-inspiring judgmental nature.

Valsalva

Hm... you know, I was actually thinking this might have been an open-minded discussion among people with differing views on this subject, but instead I found only Christianity-bashing.

You know, it really upsets me when you talk of an open-minded debate, and then degenerate into calling Christians (and only Christians, mind you, not other religious groups) stubborn, blind, crude, and ignorant because their views disagree with you. Now why are you attacking Christians so passionately Valsalva? And DA was right... you post in religious threads a lot, and where reprimanded once for doing so in the Hot Deals forum.

So, why are you attacking Christians? No one here seems like the Christians you describe with your broad generalizations with no factual support. No one here is trying to convert you, rather I hoped for a civil conversation. I find it hard to talk civil, however, when someone is verbally desecrating my beliefs and then labeling me the agressor.

 

[CPA]

You know I was all ready to say "sign me up", that is until I started reading some of Valsalva's diatribe (your list of page 2 is way inaccurate Valsalva, if you think Christian's are the only one trying to "convert" others, you are sadly mistaken). I really don't care to associate myself in a group which has some members who can not intelligently argue a point without name calling or showing hatred towards one particular group.

And please people, read the Constitution, there is no seperation of Church and State. It's an interpretation, though the courts, themselves, can not agree to the "seperation of Church and State" philosophy. The Pledge of Allegiance issue is just one example.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: Millennium

I corrected some more grammar and spelling issues for you.

I corrected another spelling mistake for you. This is getting fun!

Hey I corrected some more spelling errors for you.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by correcting my typos. Doing so does NOT at all change the fact that your unsophisticated diction and simplistic arguments do NOT justify you calling other people here a "moron." Furthermore, considering the childish nature of posting the equivalent of "hehe, i just corrected some of your typos, i'm so smart!!" only further reinforces you immaturity. I'm not sure what you're trying go accomplish, but you only strengthens the conclusions that were drawn about you earlier. What grade are you in? I would guess 10th.

I corrected another few typos for you, and also saw that you are using "immature syntax" and "acronyms." I wish someone would punch your arrogant ass.

Whoops. There we go again..."I wish someone would punch your arrogant ass." It's a shame that people in this country feel the need to resort to violence when their inadequacy prevents them from discussing a matter appropriately or they have anger management issues. Sometimes violent people have violent parents...or grow up around violence. It's difficult to fault these people for their behavioral tendencies, but at the same time, there's really no excuse when people's tempers get out of control. The world has enough problems as it is.

Valsalva

Please try not to remove the closing tag for italic when quoting.

And Millenium, if you'd actually count the people who practice their religion rather than just 'being Christian cause my family is' chances are high Christianity won't score that high in the USA anymore either. But most people follow a religion because they are born into it, or because they wanted to impress/marry someone who was a member of such a religion, so the total number of truly religious people in the world will probably be less than 10%.

Yep pretty much.

 

[QTArrhythmic]

Originally posted by: CPA
You know I was all ready to say "sign me up", that is until I started reading some of Valsalva's diatribe (your list of page 2 is way inaccurate Valsalva, if you think Christian's are the only one trying to "convert" others, you are sadly mistaken). I really don't care to associate myself in a group which has some members who can not intelligently argue a point without name calling or showing hatred towards one particular group.

And please people, read the Constitution, there is no seperation of Church and State. It's an interpretation, though the courts, themselves, can not agree to the "seperation of Church and State" philosophy. The Pledge of Allegiance issue is just one example.

Name calling is forbidden on this thread, arguements and discussion must be conducted in a civil way.

 

[Tom]

monkey spawn.

 

[Siddhartha]

When I was around seven or eight, I sat down and thought about Jesus Christ and God and came to the conclusion that they were as real as the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. When I hear people talk about their religious beliefs, I just hear people talking about their beliefs. Believing in something or someone is not enough for me.

So if after I die and I am asked about why I did not believe, I will say that the people who talked about it just were not convincing to me.

 

[Netopia]

Darn! You guys type faster than I can catch up! I read this thread at breakfast and now it's over 130 posts!

Hey Red, what's up? Long time no chat... but we do seem to find each other on occasion!

To everyone who wades through what follows.... I appreciate your intestinal fortitude!

ValsalvaYourHeartOut, you have been making some statements that don't actually fit the facts. Considering you're a scientist, I would think that you would be absolutely sure before making any assertions about anything. Maybe I'm wrong... maybe you do have some facts that I've over looked. You often seem to make statements similar to the following:

It's inherent in the biblical text -- that "everybody else" is going to hell ...

1) If you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you cannot seek salvation, and you are going to hell.

5) God is allowing half the world to go to hell because they have never heard of Jesus Christ. This is clearly unjust.

You seem to treat these statements as fact and yet I cannot find any Bible verse to support what you say. Please give reference to support your theories. Further, please do not pull a text out of context and please also supply supporting verses from other Scripture. Treat it as you would something scientific... you would use ALL possible data to test a theory, so please use ALL SCRIPTURE to support what you think Scripture says.

It's amazing how pervasive the Christians are in our lives.

I'm rather amazed that someone with such self-pronounced intelligence as yours would be amazed at this! We live in a Republic! We all have a vote. You vote agnostically and want the Government to side with what you do and don't find right. Why does it amaze you that others do the EXACT same thing that you do? Maybe what surprizes you is that there are so many who don't agree with you? The homosexual community is also quite active. Do you find it "amazing" that they get legislation passed? How about AARP? NAACP? Have you never studied our form of Government?

....and would not be related to anything universally immoral, such as human cloning.

"Universally Immoral" MY, that is an interesting concept from one who doesn't believe in God. Please do give us your thesis on how things can be "universal" and also about how anything can be "immoral"... if we are just animals and nothing more then why should there even be a concept of "right and wrong". The fact is that all of us, including YOU, draw lines in the sand and don't want others to cross them... secularly the only difference in our views is where we decide to draw the line.

Secondly, I find it appalling that certain groups are opposed to methods of birth control because they believe that the practice is inconsistent with their religious text, the bible.

Why? We live in a Republic as stated earlier. I suppose that you might like to have a say as to whether or not one's vote counts based on how they think and what the sorce of their values are? I'm starting to become amazed at your insight... or lack thereof. Such self-spoken brilliance and yet the obvious seems to escape you. Very interesting.

Here we go again with Christians telling non-Christians what they should and shouldn't be doing. What right to you think you have in telling me to use or not use italics? I will use italics if I please. If you don't like them, then too bad.

Interesting... we're the Christians but I've seen here and in other threads that it is YOU who seem to have a martyr complex. You've pulled those sort of things with me before too... what, no new tricks to keep people off topic?

An ex-Christian??? Please share your story...I'm sure we'd all love to hear about your "Agnostic walk."

Practice what you preach. I've asked you before for your history. Why you have such anger at religion and Christianity in general, but you always seem to slip and slide your way out of it. So please.... lead by example, give us your Agnostic Testimony.

1) Christians attempt to disrupt the lives of others by imposing their views and altering foreign policies to reflect their religions. Examples: stem-cell research, abortion, etc. Do you see Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, or agnostics doing this? NO. Only Christians

REALLY? Might I introduce you to some middle eastern countries? (Islam) How about much of India and the local politics that go on there? (Hindu) or even Japan, where if a person converts from Buddism they are often shunned both privately by familiy and friends and also publically in business! You do have rather tunnel vision, don't you?

I am flabbergasted that you honestly ask why Christians are "singled out"!!! It should be patently obvious to anyone who was in touch with reality, but given your recent bout of psychosis (see above), I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Hmmm.... flabbergasted, amazed, appalled... you are a quite emotionally driven person, aren't you?

STAY AWAY FROM THAT GUY..he's bad news. You sound very susceptible based on what you wrote, and you could easily be sucked back into the Borg if you continue to listen to his mumbo jumbo. Be strong. Listen to the voice of reason rather than your friend's meaningless rhetoric. He will stop at nothing to assimilate you because he believes he has been commanded to do so...and he doesn't want you to burn in hell...he thinks he's doing you a favor but it's not. Get out while you can.

Interesting.... I'm actually seeing a pattern starting to emerge. You are actually every bit an evangelist as the Christians you cannot stand! You have said that they stick their nose's in others' business... that they are annoying and preach what they believe... and yet you yourself do these exact same things! Isn't there a word for that sort of behaviour? Oh yeah... hypocritical!

I've found that much of Christianity is based on a series of unfalsifiable claims.

And none of what you say is? Please see the top of this post.

BTW... I've tried to do a little fact finding myself... so I did a search of AnandTech to find all of the posts every by ValsalvaYourHeartOut. Contrary to common belief, he does post other than in religious threads. I did find a study of him rather interesting though. He seems to have a bent toward sarcasm and belittlement towards anyone with whom he disagrees. He is often nasty towards others if they don't see things his way. This could be a sign of a severe inferiority complex, not wanting to ever appear to be wrong... but I really don't have enough data to say for sure.

Another interesting thing... he says very little about himself at a personal level. He tries hard to leave no beloved patriot in his armor where anyone could say anything against him at a personal level. When others ask him to back up comments or ask him about why he is the way he is, his normal tactic seems to be to deflect the question by attacking the person and asking them what right they have to order him around or make demands on him. He would appear to be very insecure and unwilling to show people who he really is. Fear of transparency. Fear of people knowing him at a deep level. I wonder why?

There's another atheist on these boards that I myself have done verbal battle with... Harvey. You know who won? All of us. The outcome of our first (religious/athistic) battle was Anand agreeing to make an Off Topic forum where we could discuss such things. (Keep that in mind next time someone says they should ban Religious threads... it was a religious thread that got you this forum... just ask RedDawn if you don't believe me) You know what else? Harvey is a great person and I hold HUGE respect for him. He didn't/doesn't simply wade in with diatribes and attacks. He is who he is and if you argue with him long enough you'll get to know him... you'll get to know his logic, you'll get to know what things he's passionate about, you'll get to know his interests/hobbies, about his family.... you know why? Because he's more than just someone who debates, he's a person with certain views but he's a PERSON first. ValsalvaYourHeartOut, doesn't seem to follow that pattern on here.

I don't think most of us have that sort of respect for ValsalvaYourHeartOut. He just comes bashing people. You can't get to know him because he appearently doesn't want people to know him... he only wants the world to be the way he thinks it should be and everyone else had better get out of his way. Even over the last couple dozen posts, there have been athiests/agnostics who have given some of the same sentiments about him. Hey ValsalvaYourHeartOut, you're a member of this board and you can do what you want within the constraints of the rules... but you'll get a LOT farther if you tone down the hatred and open yourself up more.

Joe

 

[QTArrhythmic]

Netopia, Welcome to the thread.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: TheBoyBlunder
sign me up please.

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: QTArrhythmic
Netopia, Welcome to the thread.

THANK YOU!

Joe

 

[QTArrhythmic]

From a PM msg:

I think that the problems I ran into growing up in the church were not just unique to me. I had a feeling that others felt the same way, but didn't say anything.

After going to many churches it seemed to me that anytime I would bring up what I thought to be obvious problems I would get strange looks and it would be laughed off. Sure one might say that no church is perfect, but these problems were pervasive. And it wasn't only the problems that bothered me, it was the attitude fo the parishioners had towards the problems.

Eventually, I felt that it was better off to leave, because I would be a hypocrite if I stayed-- smiling and holding my Bible but secretly not believing a word that was preached.

I still go to church on holidays with my family, but even then I depressed everytime I go. The way church is organized, the mindset is just incompatable with me. So I make the conscious decision not to go. I am much happier not going, even though I don't have a safety net when I die-- and I faced dead twice.

I don't have a problem with Christianity, I have a problem with the organization.

Has anyone had a similar experience?????

QT

 

[Netopia]

Has anyone had a similar experience?????

Absolutely! Me.

I'm going to venture a guess that you might be Catholic based on your use of the word "Parishoners", though I could obviously be mistaken. I was raised Catholic and my father is an ordained Deacon in the Roman Catholic church (went to Seminary and deaconate training...etc). The more I read of the Bible, the more inconsistancies I saw between what I remembered being taught as a Catholic and what the Bible actually said. I went to a Priest about this, but he couldn't help me to reconcile so I asked to be allowed to go through the catacuminate (study for non-Catholics who want to convert). He didn't want me to at first, but finally allowed it. I think that the class was something like 2 or 3 hours once a week for either 12 or 16 weeks (it's been almost 20 years, so I can't remember for sure). In the end I found that I had learned correctly from the beginning and that I simply couldn't reconcile what I read in the Bible with much of what the Church taught and I left.

I get married to a woman who was very involved with her church. She was Episcopalian. It was ok... it was very much like the Catholic Church except without praying to saints and the Pope etc. Unfortunately, as I stayed there longer I found that I had jumped from the frying pan and into the fire! This church didn't even believe (for the most part) that the Bible was actually the Word of God and regularly disregarded whole sections and only taught out of what they believed... all the while holding the Bible up during Mass and proclaiming "The Word of The Lord". After they ordained the first homosexual priest (which goes against Biblical teaching) I was out of there.

I was basically unchurched for a couple of years, and then my wife and I went on the Church Hunt. Going to different churches and trying to find one that actually said that they believed in the Bible and then acted like it . And I don't just mean restrictively. The Bible doe NOT say that any drinking or dancing are sin. It does NOT say that working on Sunday is sin. I does NOT say that people of different races/ethnicities should be seperate, but goes into detail that all are equal to God. It took a while to find a church that actually obeyed the Bible very closely and didn't hold to unbiblical traditions. Ultimately, it meant going to a non-denominational Bible church that was centered on the Bible, Family and Missions. There have been problems from time to time at the church, as there will be with any organization where humans are present. The church has a good solid constitution though and the beliefs of the church are spelled out very, very well.... it takes a 100% unanimous vote of all members IN WRITING to change any statement of theology. This particular church has stood firm for almost 40 years...

Joe

 

[QueHuong]

Originally posted by: flxnimprtmscl

Originally posted by: iwearnosox

Originally posted by: DevilsAdvocate

Originally posted by: iwearnosox
Eh, wasn't it Georgia that passed a law to allow creationism to be taught along side evolution? Bible thumpers are bent on getting religion into every facet of the government, despite the constitution.

... which is why the courts are there. The minority is protected.

It's a violation of the separation of church and state. You're an idiot if you think otherwise.

You realize that in some schools books like the Koran are read? Why aren't you screaming about that just out of curiosity?

Besides, your "seperation of church and state" argument doesn't make much sense in this instance. Seperation of church and state was written in so there couldn't be a state sponsored religion. Basicly so the government couldn't force religious beliefs on people. Do you really think that's what's being done by teaching creationisim alongside evolution? They are not forcing Christianity on the students but rather presenting an alternative viewpoint. Allow me to quote you and say "you're an idiot if you think otherwise"....What I do hear is you bitching about creationisim being mentioned as an alternative view. Funny isn't it?

The reason why we don't bitch about the Koran being taught is because it's not nearly as widespread as the Bible being forced upon us in school. If more and more people and trying to preach the Koran, as much as the number of other mindless Christians, then yes, we'll start bitching about the Koran too. But the fact is that the followers are smaller in number, and are more respectful and tolerant of different beliefs.

Secondly, separation of church and state prohibits religion in the school - I don't care how much you try to twist it to fit your views, religion doesn't belong in school. Supreme Court rulings have set that precedence, and only if other judges would follow it.

Thirdly, I don't want money being taken from my science classes so they can fund Creationist teachers' salaries and textbooks, especially when religion has no place in a public school. I don't want to come to college unprepared because some fundalmentalist superintendent replaced AP Biology with Creationism Part I of a 10 Part Series class.