AGPers.. rejoice!!

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: apoppin

TOLD YOU SO

:roll:

over-and-over

where are the 'AGP is dead' posters?
:Q


i STILL have almost a month to return my x850xt . . .

and of couse i EXPECT a high-end agp card from ATi

I'm right here... AGP still is dead Apop...

This is a pretty cool card, but I honestly don't think it will be a huge increase over the X850XT you already have. Certainly, I don't think it would be worth the additional cost of a $300 7800GS over your $200 X850XT (which is probably a very optimistic price guess anyway). I guess it really depends on your definition of "high end". If the 7800GS were to launch today, it would be the fourth ranking card in NV's lineup from their flagship. With the 7900's set to debut in March, that would slide it down to 6th from the top (assuming that there is a 7900GT and GTX). The 7900GTX is apparently supposed to have 32 pipes and to come clocked at somewhere in the 700+ range, IMO, a card with half the pipes and have the clocks (from the same manufacturer) isn't exactly "high end" anymore IMO.

This is a actually the argument that you got from most of us... That there would be no more high end AGP cards, and well, I still don't see any plans for one.

Originally posted by: ToddMcF2002
I noticed a couple mentions of people wanting x1900 AGP. Personally, I'll be happy with a 7800GS because it will buy me a year or longer on AGP before the inevitable PCI-e rebuild. Doing it right now would be pretty wasteful - my machine is still very fast. On the other hand buying a $500 AGP card doesnt sound so smart. When you do upgrade to PCI-e you'll be throwing away an AGP card with significant risidual value.

If a 7800GS can play Oblivion and Gothic 3 - its my stopgap card

I'm sure many of the PCI-e fanboys havent considered the reality of their flippant "Upgrade now stupid AGP is dead" comments. For example - upgrading my setup is complicated. I can't just "chuck in" a new MB. I'll lose my RAID 0 data on a new RAID controller. That's a huge PITA. If I can't OC the new processor to at least a 940 FSB my expensive DDR500 latency becomes a liability and will have to go. There are good reasons people are still on AGP so STFU already. Talk about beating a dead horse. Yeah I registered primarily to say that.

While your post has already been graded as "excellent", I'd give you about a C

1) The first 1/2 makes sense.
2) The second 1/2 sounds as if you somehow think that those who have already swtiched over to PCI-E don't know these things. Thanks to us adoptors, the price on the parts you will need is dropping and availability is increasing. We all had to go through the growing pains similar to what you describe. Additionally, moving from one RAID 0 controller to another doesn't mean data loss. I've swtiched my RAID 0 array from the NV RAID to the Sil RAID (and back) on my motherboard and never had any issues. Getting a new mobo will probably require a re-install of your OS though...
3) Why come out swinging calling people fanboys and brandishing "STFU" in your first post? C'mon there will be plenty of time to make enemies in the fufture.

Welcome to AT

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
well Nvidia plans to launch its 7600GT and that is same time 7800gs will be launched.

So i am just wondering the performance and price and how its going to fit in without killing 6800gs or 7600gt :! unless nvidia plans to confuse everyone :!

So it will look like this then for nVidia current production AGP cards:

6600GT to be replaced by 7600GT(I'm guessing $200 for a 12 pipe 350Mhz 128mb GDDR3)

6800le/nu/GT/Ultra replaced by 6800GS(I think this will dry up quick to drive 7XXX series sales, or risk dropping in price)

7800GS( guessing 16 pipe(now) 350Mhz 256mb GDDR3 at $300

The memory is pretty obvious, others are just speculation. But the core speed from the site states:

The AGP variant of the NVIDIA GeForce 7800GS seems set to feature a core GPU frequency of 350MHz, a frequency dictated by the fact that it?s, unsurprisingly, a PCIe to AGP bridged design.

Is that saying that the PCI bridge thinga maduhicky is shorting the clock speed? BUMMER!:thumbsdown:

Anyone know about this?

The part about the bridge chip influencing speed is total & utter bullcrap. If it were true, how do you explain AGP 6600's with core speeds of 500mhz, 6800 Ultras, etc? (they all use the bridge chip...)

6800U with a AGP bridge AFAIK only the 6600gt was converted from PCIe to AGP

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
well Nvidia plans to launch its 7600GT and that is same time 7800gs will be launched.

So i am just wondering the performance and price and how its going to fit in without killing 6800gs or 7600gt :! unless nvidia plans to confuse everyone :!

So it will look like this then for nVidia current production AGP cards:

6600GT to be replaced by 7600GT(I'm guessing $200 for a 12 pipe 350Mhz 128mb GDDR3)

6800le/nu/GT/Ultra replaced by 6800GS(I think this will dry up quick to drive 7XXX series sales, or risk dropping in price)

7800GS( guessing 16 pipe(now) 350Mhz 256mb GDDR3 at $300

The memory is pretty obvious, others are just speculation. But the core speed from the site states:

The AGP variant of the NVIDIA GeForce 7800GS seems set to feature a core GPU frequency of 350MHz, a frequency dictated by the fact that it?s, unsurprisingly, a PCIe to AGP bridged design.

Is that saying that the PCI bridge thinga maduhicky is shorting the clock speed? BUMMER!:thumbsdown:

Anyone know about this?

The part about the bridge chip influencing speed is total & utter bullcrap. If it were true, how do you explain AGP 6600's with core speeds of 500mhz, 6800 Ultras, etc? (they all use the bridge chip...)

6800U with a bridge a AGP bridge AFAIK only the 6600gt was converted from PCIe to AGP

Makes no difference which way the translation is going, the bridge chip would still cause a problem if you were to believe the FUD in the hexus story. Obviously PCI-E 6800 Ultras work just fine, and so do 6600's on AGP...

 

[NoStateofMind]

If the PCI bridge is not the handicap, then would a lower voltage cripple it enough for it to get the 'GS' designation? If that's the case, couldn't you just try a voltage mod to get the speeds that you would have in PCIe? awwweee crap! nVidia is going to see this and stop production now j/k

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
If the PCI bridge is not the handicap, then would a lower voltage cripple it enough for it to get the 'GS' designation? If that's the case, couldn't you just try a voltage mod to get the speeds that you would have in PCIe? awwweee crap! nVidia is going to see this and stop production now j/k

That's correct. You should be able to clock/overclock the AGP card to the same core speeds as PCI-E G70 based cards.

The bridge chip FUD appears to me to be a lame marketing attempt (don't if by nVidia or a partner) to "convince" us that AGP just can't support high-end cards like PCI-E can. All I have to say to that is "We aren't as dumb as you think we are - cut the crap and deliver the goods, and quit trying to force the market without good reason while you are at it!"

 

[the Chase]

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
well i think they will price it at $300 or they will kill the 6800gs sales.

a $300 price wouldn't surprise me upon first release, but if that's the case moving to PCIe and a <-$300 7800gt would look more attractive.

Yeah Nvidia is walking a tightrope on pricing these. I think the 6800GS will be discountinued soon so the 7800GS will fill that spot and the pricing will drop some around that time to hit closer to $200 than $300.(Just me guessing on this).

Frankly I would be a little pissed if I always heard this was never going to happen and bought and AGP 6800GS for $230 and 1-2 months later I could buy a AGP 7800GS for $240-$250!

 

[ToddMcF2002]

Unfortunately I think an X850 XT (or any X800 type) is a bad choice. Its fast on todays games but within less than a year the lack of shader support will really hurt those buying it.

Personally I'd rather have a slightly slower card and 3.0 shader support. FEAR should be a good indication of how poorly the X850 XT will be performing in less than a year.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/02/vga_charts_viii/page16.html

And yes... Making enemies... I'll be the bad guy. Since there are alot of AGP users that have to tolerate all this PCI-e BS STFU!!!!!!!! Just kidding. But seriously its very annoying.

And there is NO guarantee that RAID 0 will transfer even to the same controller. Lucky you, others not necessarily so lucky. I'm in no mood to reinstall dozens of games thanks.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ToddMcF2002
Unfortunately I think an X850 XT (or any X800 type) is a bad choice. Its fast on todays games but within less than a year the lack of shader support will really hurt those buying it.

Personally I'd rather have a slightly slower card and 3.0 shader support. FEAR should be a good indication of how poorly the X850 XT will be performing in less than a year.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/02/vga_charts_viii/page16.html

And yes... Making enemies... I'll be the bad guy. Since there are alot of AGP users that have to tolerate all this PCI-e BS STFU!!!!!!!! Just kidding. But seriously its very annoying.

And there is NO guarantee that RAID 0 will transfer even to the same controller. Lucky you, others not necessarily so lucky. I'm in no mood to reinstall dozens of games thanks.

NOBODY uses softshadows in FEAR . . . it doesn't look any better for the performance hit.

and my x850xt was $200 . . . look at all the other benchs . . . [even FEAR without SS] . . .
it is just below the 7800gt and slightly ahead of the best of the 6800 series . . . certainly not a "bad" card.

that said, i am interested to see how the new AGPs perform . . . ain't worried about a $10 bridge chip costing me that much more . . . i expect the "premium" to be ~$50 for a slightly slower than PCIe equivalent. . . and who know what ATi will bring.

And i don't mind sticking a $500 agp card in my "dead end" rig IF the performance increase is worth it . . . i know i'd sure like the new ati card's "features".

 

[ToddMcF2002]

Originally posted by: apoppin
NOBODY uses softshadows in FEAR . . . it doesn't look any better for the performance hit.

and my x850xt was $200 . . . look at all the other benchs . . . [even FEAR without SS] . . .
it is just below the 7800gt and slightly ahead of the best of the 6800 series . . . certainly not a "bad" card.

that said, i am interested to see how the new AGPs perform . . . ain't worried about a $10 bridge chip costing me that much more . . . i expect the "premium" to be ~$50 for a slightly slower than PCIe equivalent. . . and who know what ATi will bring.

And i don't mind sticking a $500 agp card in my "dead end" rig IF the performance increase is worth it . . . i know i'd sure like the new ati card's "features".

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the Microcenter $200 backorder for an x850 XT myself, its a fine card especially for that money. But for me a stopgap card has to at least last 1 year and with Oblivion and Gothic 3 coming out - graphically frightening to say the least. I don't know what their shader support will be but I suspect 3.0. Have you seen screenshots for those games?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ToddMcF2002

Originally posted by: apoppin
NOBODY uses softshadows in FEAR . . . it doesn't look any better for the performance hit.

and my x850xt was $200 . . . look at all the other benchs . . . [even FEAR without SS] . . .
it is just below the 7800gt and slightly ahead of the best of the 6800 series . . . certainly not a "bad" card.

that said, i am interested to see how the new AGPs perform . . . ain't worried about a $10 bridge chip costing me that much more . . . i expect the "premium" to be ~$50 for a slightly slower than PCIe equivalent. . . and who know what ATi will bring.

And i don't mind sticking a $500 agp card in my "dead end" rig IF the performance increase is worth it . . . i know i'd sure like the new ati card's "features".

Don't get me wrong, I'm on the Microcenter $200 backorder for an x850 XT myself, its a fine card especially for that money. But for me a stopgap card has to at least last 1 year and with Oblivion and Gothic 3 coming out - graphically frightening to say the least. I don't know what their shader support will be but I suspect 3.0. Have you seen screenshots for those games?

SM 3.0 is still a "peformance" thing . . . until the shaders instructions get really long and complicated . . . as in later Unreal3 engine games . . . SM2.0 is sufficient . . . probably still another year to 18 months.

Yes the new games look incredible . . . but remember, the game coders are still making it playable on a 9800p . . . i expect the LCD to be even lower . . . the x850xt should be ok - alongside my next gen console - until i upgrade in '08.


of course i'd like a faster card with more features . . . but for $200 i won't mind throwing it away {like tossing my dead $225 9800xt after 2 years of use}

 

[rbV5]

Nice to see a 7800 in AGP , so there will be at least x1600 and 7800GS in AGP. My newer rigs are PCIe, but I've still got a couple AGP rigs running on overclocked mobile barton's that see everyday use that could use a graphics upgrade (one is running a 8500le currently LOL)

Interested to see how these price/perform vs $200 X850XT cards.

 

[Randum]

until theres a card that doubles x850, i think ill just spring for the PCI express board.

 

[ToddMcF2002]

Isnt the $200 x850XT a myth though? I'm on backorder for one and I'm pretty certain Microcenter is NOT going to honor those orders.

Its really a $350 card making the 7800GS that much more attractive. Same performance as a x850XT or slightly better, future proofed against 3.0 shaders and potentially less money (~$300).

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: ToddMcF2002
Isnt the $200 x850XT a myth though? I'm on backorder for one and I'm pretty certain Microcenter is NOT going to honor those orders.

Its really a $350 card making the 7800GS that much more attractive. Same performance as a x850XT or slightly better, future proofed against 3.0 shaders and potentially less money (~$300).

And don't forget for those who do more than gaming, they get a fully functional pure video engine for HTPC applications. But for guys like you with P4 HT it should be enough to keep you gaming in relative style till the major upgrade time comes. More games will appear with threading opts, so HT could help add even longer legs to your setup.

 

[Chosonman]

yay!

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: n7
Meh, it's not gonna be all that much better than the X850XT...even the 7800GT isn't all that much better.
To me, this is just marketing.|

I've seen the GT beat out the X1800XT in some benchmarks. Throw in SM3.0, FP16HDR & it makes the X850 look antique.

If they can get the price in a good range a lot of people will be buying these.

Yeah, and I've seen a x1800XL beat out a GTX. What's your point?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: munky
Yeah, and I've seen a x1800XL beat out a GTX. What's your point?

We all know you two are diametrically opposed in GPU manufacturer preference, but could we keep the Less filling! Taste Great! to a minimum please?

the worthwhile discussion of this topic, is will it unlock? will it overclock well despite the bridge? Will it be available at a attractive price point? If it does all things, where does it stack up for value in the AGP market IYO? Is this a sign that ATI and nV will be taking PCIe exclusive GPUs that are aging/being replaced in that market by newer products/no longer selling well? ect. and working with board partners to make them available in some form to a potentially lucrative AGP market? Discuss

 

[nitromullet]

And there is NO guarantee that RAID 0 will transfer even to the same controller. Lucky you, others not necessarily so lucky. I'm in no mood to reinstall dozens of games thanks.

There is no guarantee of anything when you upgrade or any other time you turn on your PC, my point is that while your reasons for not upgrading to PCI-E may be valid, they will still be valid in 2, 3, and 5 years. Eventually you will have to bite the bullet and upgrade your system, which will require you to either backup or lose your data. My easy and faily inexpensive solution to this "problem" was to purchase a large, cheap additional hard drive to store my backup data. I can re-install my OS, most of my apps, and my data in about 2-3 hours. I also suggest getting the DVD version of games when possible, it helps you avoid all that disk swapping when installing.

Most of us PCI-E "fanboys" aren't actually saying "PCI-E or die", but rather contend that if you want to to upgrade to a higher end video card you should bite the bullet and make the switch, if not, then wait...

Example, you could hop on this deal:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications...m-details.asp?EdpNo=1644233&CatId=2023

add this cpu:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications...chTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1366603

...pair those up with your RAM, and for about ~$500 you have a new rig that will outperform your current rig plus a $300-350 AGP 7800GS that has the option to go SLI and will ensure that you can upgrade the video card should you choose to do so in the future. Get a bit more creative, and you can probably offset this cost by selling some of your current stuff on ebay or find another use for it. If ~$500 is too rich for your blood, I would just save up my cash instead of purchasing some overpriced AGP stop gap card.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Well, first of all... PAINT ME IMPRESSED... I didn't think this would happen, but I guess even NVidia can't afford to ignore 70% of the computer market (and 70% does not equal dead).

Could this be one of those "White Elephants" that you would never see?

Sheesh... for the UMPTEENTH MILLIONTH TIME... I said there will be ONE... that's right, ONE White Elephant... not sure why you think ONE = Gazillions, but I only called ONE card a white elephant... that's a stock-manufactured, sold and garaunteed 450MHz 6800GS... that will NEVER happen, that's a White Elephant. Nothing more... that's all I said, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I didn't think we'd see a 7X00 AGP card, but then again, there were very few who did. It's all fine and dandy anyways... we all know PC Surgeon can't afford ANY AGP card at all, so why he keeps talking about them, we'll never know (window shopping). You seem to keep rubbing this "White Elephant" thing in my face, but truth be told, it's the ONLY card I called a white elephant, and I'm STILL RIGHT, and you're STILL WRONG on the White Elephant, so you're only reminding people how silly you are thinking there will be a 450MHz 6800GS sold by a manufacturer.

Now back on topic... At first when I read the headline, I thought "Wow, finally a GeForce-7... maybe something I'm interested in". Then I realized... the Specs:

7800GS AGP:
16-pipes
350MHz core
256MB DDR3 memory

Hmmm... where have I heard this before? I know...

6800GT
16-pipes
350MHz core
256MB DDR3 memory

WTF? I must be missing something obvious... please tell me what it is?!? Maybe you can unlock the 16-pipe 7800GS to 20-pipes? I dunno... but upon further review I'm wondering why this card is better then a 6800GT? I'm sure there is something I'm missing, but please explaine the differance!

Another thought... I think this almost makes the 6800GS another "gotchya" to all the folks who rushed out and bought a 6800GS thinking that was the best they could do for AGP. I won't be surprised if this 7800GS is only $70 bucks more (possibly less) then the 6800GS... and if I had just bought the 6800GS and found out a week later I could get the 7800GS instead, I'd be plum mad!

Anyways, with THREE AGP systems in the house, I'm always keeping tabs on the AGP developments.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: ToddMcF2002
Isnt the $200 x850XT a myth though? I'm on backorder for one and I'm pretty certain Microcenter is NOT going to honor those orders.

Its really a $350 card making the 7800GS that much more attractive. Same performance as a x850XT or slightly better, future proofed against 3.0 shaders and potentially less money (~$300).

Apopin's got one... Not sure when you ordered your's but once the price hit $200 AMIR, they didn't last long. My guess is that there is no more stock and these cards are gone.

 

[nitromullet]

deleted

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Wolfshanze, you are truly the doubting Thomas The difference between this and the 6800GT is this won't be nv40 based. That means smaller process size, which could translate into good overclocking if the bridge doesn't prevent it, or it just requires better cooling because of it, means a fully functional pure video engine too. Hopefully it will also mean those extra pipes do unlock in good percentages, and at a price that makes it a worthwhile investment for prospective users when all is said and done.

I understand your doubts, I guess I'm just the cup is half full type. I want to believe products like these are designed with "easter eggs" the informed can uncover.

 

[CKXP]

AT Review 7800GS

"a 375MHz G70 core with 16 pixel pipes and 6 vertex pipes connected to 256MB of 1GHz GDDR3 using a 256bit interface. This setup looks a little bit like an overclocked 6800 GT on the surface (of course, with G70 you get transparency AA and more efficient pixel pipes). Given what we know about the 6800 GS (it performs like a stock 6800 GT) and the 7800 GT (it will be faster than this with 20 pixel pipes, 7 vertex pipes, and a higher core clock), we can easily say that the 7800 GS will perform right in between these two parts."

the 7800GS AGP @350mhz should perform like a 6800U with a more effecient 110nm core, slightly faster than a 6800gt, still slower than the 7800gt, but given it will be using a 110nm NV47 core, it should give it some modest OC headroom.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: CKXP
AT Review 7800GS

"a 375MHz G70 core with 16 pixel pipes and 6 vertex pipes connected to 256MB of 1GHz GDDR3 using a 256bit interface. This setup looks a little bit like an overclocked 6800 GT on the surface (of course, with G70 you get transparency AA and more efficient pixel pipes). Given what we know about the 6800 GS (it performs like a stock 6800 GT) and the 7800 GT (it will be faster than this with 20 pixel pipes, 7 vertex pipes, and a higher core clock), we can easily say that the 7800 GS will perform right in between these two parts."

the 7800GS AGP @350mhz should perform like a 6800U with a more effecient 110nm core, slightly faster than a 6800gt, still slower than the 7800gt, but given it will be using a 110nm NV47 core, it should give it some modest OC headroom.

So, in other words - those who already have a 6800gt will not see much of an improvement by upgrading to a 7800gs. To me, this still looks like NV mostly wants to get ppl to switch to pci-e, and the 7800gs is just them throwing a bone to the dogs - the agp peeps who desperately want a new card, and probably the same ones that "upgraded" form a gf2 gts to a gf4 mx. Why dont they release a real high end agp card like the gtx? And it sure took them long enough to release a crippled agp 7-series half a year after the release of the faster pci-e 7-series. Something tells me we're not gong to see any high end agp card from either Nv or Ati because they seem bent on keeping the high end cards exclusive to pci-e. Releasing midrange agp parts is worthless to the enthusiasts because they are the ones with last gen high end cards, and they're the ones who want to upgrade the most. Your average Joe Schmoe will likely keep his fx5200 until he gets a whole new Dell with some x1300se, happly oblivious to the whole agp/pci-e debate.

 

[Killrose]

"We're here!! We Game!! and we're in your face!! < AGP Rabid Devotees Chant

But seriously both nVidia and ATi want you to buy a thier new chipset based platform. they dont want you to use your perfectly good, AGP slotted motherboard They would prefere you buy their new PCI-e based motherboard and (2) video cards, not just one.

And here is the big reason there are no top end AGP video cards in case you have'nt figured it out yet. Clock for Clock an AGP based video card is still faster than its PCI-e counterpart Why do you think the AGP cards are released with lower GPU/Mem clocks? They don't want this shown in any reveiw. It's marketing 101 pure and simple.

Agp for the top-end is dead, only because it has been killed, not because PCI-e is faster now, today. Months to years from now, maybe.