AGPers.. rejoice!!

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: Killrose
"We're here!! We Game!! and we're in your face!! < AGP Rabid Devotees Chant

But seriously both nVidia and ATi want you to buy a thier new chipset based platform. they dont want you to use your perfectly good, AGP slotted motherboard They would prefere you buy their new PCI-e based motherboard and (2) video cards, not just one.

And here is the big reason there are no top end AGP video cards in case you have'nt figured it out yet. Clock for Clock an AGP based video card is still faster than its PCI-e counterpart Why do you think the AGP cards are released with lower GPU/Mem clocks? They don't want this shown in any reveiw. It's marketing 101 pure and simple.

Agp for the top-end is dead, only because it has been killed, not because PCI-e is faster now, today. Months to years from now, maybe.

well said!!!!

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
Well, first of all... PAINT ME IMPRESSED... I didn't think this would happen, but I guess even NVidia can't afford to ignore 70% of the computer market (and 70% does not equal dead).

Could this be one of those "White Elephants" that you would never see?

Sheesh... for the UMPTEENTH MILLIONTH TIME... I said there will be ONE... that's right, ONE White Elephant... not sure why you think ONE = Gazillions, but I only called ONE card a white elephant... that's a stock-manufactured, sold and garaunteed 450MHz 6800GS... that will NEVER happen, that's a White Elephant. Nothing more... that's all I said, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I didn't think we'd see a 7X00 AGP card, but then again, there were very few who did. It's all fine and dandy anyways... we all know PC Surgeon can't afford ANY AGP card at all, so why he keeps talking about them, we'll never know (window shopping). You seem to keep rubbing this "White Elephant" thing in my face, but truth be told, it's the ONLY card I called a white elephant, and I'm STILL RIGHT, and you're STILL WRONG on the White Elephant, so you're only reminding people how silly you are thinking there will be a 450MHz 6800GS sold by a manufacturer.

The White elephant statement had nothing to do with you. It was directed at those who said "the 7800GS wouldn't happen". Never did I mention you. Don't like my posts? Get over it! You can bash me as much as you want Sir, enjoy...but I kindly asked you to get off my back yesterday in the PM I sent...and now I will post for all to see, so they can see how much of a nice guy you are.

PC Surgeon Wolf, would you please stay off my back? I want to upgade, and was going to with a GS ( as you have so made clear), But I lost my job 3 weeks ago and money is getting tight. So the less flack I hear the better. So I ask kindly that you relax a bit . Thank you. 01/09/2006 05:39 PM

And yet despite my kind request you still bash me in the forum for no good reason other than to pat yourself on the back. " look at the window shopper" sounds like grade school calling people names, giving them lables and generally making fun of those less fortunate than yourself. Nice job...I appreciate how you honor my request.

In a previous post, I deleted my post out of respect for you. And I will continue to respect you without your respect for me.

As for all the posts having to do with video cards, that's what I like to talk about, and evedentally so does everyone who has posted here. So sir, would you please stay off my back now?

 

[nitromullet]

sorry bro... no insult intended.

 

[Conky]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: CKXP
AT Review 7800GS

"a 375MHz G70 core with 16 pixel pipes and 6 vertex pipes connected to 256MB of 1GHz GDDR3 using a 256bit interface. This setup looks a little bit like an overclocked 6800 GT on the surface (of course, with G70 you get transparency AA and more efficient pixel pipes). Given what we know about the 6800 GS (it performs like a stock 6800 GT) and the 7800 GT (it will be faster than this with 20 pixel pipes, 7 vertex pipes, and a higher core clock), we can easily say that the 7800 GS will perform right in between these two parts."

the 7800GS AGP @350mhz should perform like a 6800U with a more effecient 110nm core, slightly faster than a 6800gt, still slower than the 7800gt, but given it will be using a 110nm NV47 core, it should give it some modest OC headroom.

So, in other words - those who already have a 6800gt will not see much of an improvement by upgrading to a 7800gs. To me, this still looks like NV mostly wants to get ppl to switch to pci-e, and the 7800gs is just them throwing a bone to the dogs - the agp peeps who desperately want a new card, and probably the same ones that "upgraded" form a gf2 gts to a gf4 mx. Why dont they release a real high end agp card like the gtx? And it sure took them long enough to release a crippled agp 7-series half a year after the release of the faster pci-e 7-series. Something tells me we're not gong to see any high end agp card from either Nv or Ati because they seem bent on keeping the high end cards exclusive to pci-e. Releasing midrange agp parts is worthless to the enthusiasts because they are the ones with last gen high end cards, and they're the ones who want to upgrade the most. Your average Joe Schmoe will likely keep his fx5200 until he gets a whole new Dell with some x1300se, happly oblivious to the whole agp/pci-e debate.

I think you have it right... this is a bone for the old AGP dogs. I'm not really sure why they are even playing around with this chipset at all though, AGP or PCI-E, as it is sort of a new middling product. Perhaps they are hoping to keep a finger in the AGP upgrading pie which is actually a good idea but they could've just as easily put a bridge on the 7800GT.

I would've been a potential buyer of this in AGP before my latest upgrade although I would've preferred a 7800GT in AGP given the pricepoint. Even Anandtech's review suggests that a 7800GT is the way to go over a 7800GS but this is info for the PCI-E users.

 

[schtuga]

I never thought they would give you a viable agp card upgrade,they are merely swapping out with newer lower cheaper process is all.So anyone with an x8xx or 6800 card,this isn't much of an upgrade, if you consider it one at all.

 

[ToddMcF2002]

Originally posted by: CrazyfoolI think you have it right... this is a bone for the old AGP dogs. I'm not really sure why they are even playing around with this chipset at all though, AGP or PCI-E, as it is sort of a new middling product....

Exactly. They know their marketing. AGP users need stopgap cards not ultra high end. They also want to push the preception that AGP < PCI-e from a performance standpoint.

Its just marketing - but I'm happy - a 7800GS is exactly what an aging AGP high end system needs.

 

[Munky]

The 7800gs agp might be a good upgrade for those who are currently have 9800p and a fairly decent A64 rig. These are the kind of people that might otherwise pick up the x850xt as the last agp upgrade, and since it's the fastest agp card that has lately been at a somewhat decent price from certain places. I guess Nv wants to get some of that action for themselves.

 

[TGS]

Looks like a nice upgrade for the 6800GT and prior crowd, without the added expense of a new PCIE board.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: TGS
Looks like a nice upgrade for the 6800GT and prior crowd, without the added expense of a new PCIE board.

That deal on the eVGA 7800GT + SLI mobo for $360 would be a better upgrade option in your situation though. You already have a socket 939 cpu, all you need to replace is the motherboard and video card. You'd be all set for another video upgrade in that rig, especially if you bumped up your proc at some point. I image that socket 939 will still have quite a bit of life even after socket AM2.

 

[Wolfshanze]

PC Surgeon... sorry if you took my post harshley... it just seemd the "White Elephant" bit seemed targetted right at me, as it did seem a poke in my direction... if not, I apologize. I have only spoken of the great White Elephant in regards to a 450MHz stock-clocked 6800GS, nothing more, ergo my confusion.

Back on topic:

To me, this still looks like NV mostly wants to get ppl to switch to pci-e, and the 7800gs is just them throwing a bone to the dogs - the agp peeps who desperately want a new card, and probably the same ones that "upgraded" form a gf2 gts to a gf4 mx.

I agree here... at first I was thrilled to see this release... then looking at the stats, this seems like a "side upgrade" if I were to consider a 6800GT to a 7800GS. It does indeed remind me of the GF2 to GF4MX debacle.

Wolfshanze, you are truly the doubting Thomas The difference between this and the 6800GT is this won't be nv40 based.

Yes Dapunisher, if you've seen the things I've seen you tend to like to see facts before believing in claims... now nobody has said much about the 7800GS before, and since it was exclusively a PCI-E product, I never paid it much mind. When I read the stats on it, it sounded identical to my 6800GT... I know it's not an Nv40 core, but I'm not sure how much faster (if at all) this card would be compared to say a 6800GT. If the core is improved, but all other factors stay the same (core-clock, memory & pipelines) it would seem much like the GF2 to GF4MX debacle. Slightly differant, but otherwise the same.

Dapunisher or others, please feel free to show me just how much faster the 7800GS is over a 6800GT. I'd love to be shown my card is a lot slower, because I'd like to think I could squeeze another video card out of this system. I'm hoping I'm wrong that identical core speeds, memory and pipes don't mean the same performance... PLEEEEEASE prove me wrong!

As was said earlier by munky, this smells a bit fishy. Why the 7800GS? Why not the 7800GT for AGP? Other then the core, this card looks identical to a 6800GT. I know the core of the 7800 is better, but how much of that turns into FPS or picture quality? Educate me... I'll be the first to admit I know little about the 7X00 chipset.

 

[secretanchitman]

awesome. just plain awesome. i wonder how many pipes/vertexes etc and whatever else is on there...?

 

[Wolfshanze]

I know it's 16-pipes (same as 6800GT)... I wonder if it has any that are unlockable... now if you could unlock it to 20-pipes, that would truely be awesome (but I haven't a clue).

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
I know it's 16-pipes (same as 6800GT)... I wonder if it has any that are unlockable... now if you could unlock it to 20-pipes, that would truely be awesome (but I haven't a clue).

I highly doubt it as I have not heard of a single successful 7800GT unlock to 24 pipes. I don't even think it's possible because they are either laser cut or hardware disabled.
No reason to think the 7800GS would be any different. The only card by nvidia that can be unlocked right now is the 6800nu AGP/6800GS AGP because they have the NV40 core.

 

[TheoPetro]

.........i hate you Nvidia. i grabbed a whole new mobo and videocard about 2 months ago because "agp is dead" argh. if they had released this lil guy a few months early they woulda had another sale. i wish i could just go over to them and kick em in the balls.

 

[Bucksnort]

whats the minumin power supply needed for this card?

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
PC Surgeon... sorry if you took my post harshley... it just seemd the "White Elephant" bit seemed targetted right at me, as it did seem a poke in my direction... if not, I apologize. I have only spoken of the great White Elephant in regards to a 450MHz stock-clocked 6800GS, nothing more, ergo my confusion.

Back on topic:

To me, this still looks like NV mostly wants to get ppl to switch to pci-e, and the 7800gs is just them throwing a bone to the dogs - the agp peeps who desperately want a new card, and probably the same ones that "upgraded" form a gf2 gts to a gf4 mx.

I agree here... at first I was thrilled to see this release... then looking at the stats, this seems like a "side upgrade" if I were to consider a 6800GT to a 7800GS. It does indeed remind me of the GF2 to GF4MX debacle.

Wolfshanze, you are truly the doubting Thomas The difference between this and the 6800GT is this won't be nv40 based.

Yes Dapunisher, if you've seen the things I've seen you tend to like to see facts before believing in claims... now nobody has said much about the 7800GS before, and since it was exclusively a PCI-E product, I never paid it much mind. When I read the stats on it, it sounded identical to my 6800GT... I know it's not an Nv40 core, but I'm not sure how much faster (if at all) this card would be compared to say a 6800GT. If the core is improved, but all other factors stay the same (core-clock, memory & pipelines) it would seem much like the GF2 to GF4MX debacle. Slightly differant, but otherwise the same.

Dapunisher or others, please feel free to show me just how much faster the 7800GS is over a 6800GT. I'd love to be shown my card is a lot slower, because I'd like to think I could squeeze another video card out of this system. I'm hoping I'm wrong that identical core speeds, memory and pipes don't mean the same performance... PLEEEEEASE prove me wrong!

As was said earlier by munky, this smells a bit fishy. Why the 7800GS? Why not the 7800GT for AGP? Other then the core, this card looks identical to a 6800GT. I know the core of the 7800 is better, but how much of that turns into FPS or picture quality? Educate me... I'll be the first to admit I know little about the 7X00 chipset.

The secondary main ALU is improved over nV40 (can now issue mulitply as well as add commands), Gamma AA is officially supported, transparency AA is supported (still feel ripped off here though, since I'm certain nVidia can enable this for nV4x if they wanted to). The GPU itself runs far cooler with less need for noisy cooling solutions thanks to a smaller process and clock gating/discrete timing domains. They are all good reasons for upgrading from nV40.

Now nVidia needs to quit the bridge chip FUD and offer ALL of the G70 based cards for AGP and let people choose for themselves how and when they will upgrade their motherboards.

Frankly when I do upgrade my motherboard I'm considering not getting an nForce4 board simply to help send the message that you can't do this to your customers unless you are trying to be the next Intel (and those sorts of tactics only made Intel unpopular and AMD popular).

 

[Pete]

They're probably selling as many native G70s as they can, so this may be them shunting G70s that can't make the 7800GT cut (400MHz, 20 pipes) to the AGP market. I doubt power draw will be an issue, either, as G70 seems at least as efficient as NV40.

But, yeah, why so little AGP love? The developed a bridge chip for a reason. Maybe PCBs are getting too complex to accomodate the HSI? Then again, given that both NV and ATI are tying for more stable card platforms (be it desktop or laptop), you'd think they could reuse it for G71, etc. Maybe it's not as cheap to put it on the same package, a la NV45? Seems easier, tho, in that you wouldn't have to rearrange the PCB. OTOH, maybe the cores are getting too big to accomodate an HSI chip, too.

 

[Fox5]

A while back, I remember a company showing off a device that would plug into an agp slot, and act as a virtual pci-express slot. Basically pci express cards could plug into it. Don't think it ever made it to market though.

 

[Gstanfor]

Personally I think both nVidia and ATi should fully supprt AGP up until Vista/DirectX10/Next/whateveryouwanttocallit (how hard is it to choose a name MS???)comes out. At that point the can drop AGP support off and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

However, so long as video cards use PCI-e and the PCI-e bandwidth they use is less than AGP's bandwidth the bridge chip will remain an effective solution. It shouldn't matter how complex the gpu gets or even what breed of gpu it is, the bridge chip (nVidia's anyway) is solely concerned with PCI-E <> AGP translation.

 

[smthmlk]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro
.........i hate you Nvidia. i grabbed a whole new mobo and videocard about 2 months ago because "agp is dead" argh. if they had released this lil guy a few months early they woulda had another sale. i wish i could just go over to them and kick em in the balls.


-------------------------
DFI SLI Infinity
3200@2.5
7800GT@ 500/1100
1x36GB Raptor
2x160GB HDD
SBAudigtyZS2
2x1GB OCZ Plat
DIY H2O Cooling
2405

uhhhhhhh... they lost 1 sale of a 7800gs... but gained the sale of 1 nforce4 mobo and 1 7800GT video card. Bigwigs around big tables smoking cigars at nvidia's headquarters would laugh pretty hard if they saw your post They love people who give in quick and go gonzo on plural of their products. Nothing wrong with doing that, of course, it's just funny to see the reactions later hehe

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Fox5
A while back, I remember a company showing off a device that would plug into an agp slot, and act as a virtual pci-express slot. Basically pci express cards could plug into it. Don't think it ever made it to market though.

Asus makes it, tho it's only guaranteed to run with a handful of their cards, and good luck hacking your case to get your card to fit.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Pete

Originally posted by: Fox5
A while back, I remember a company showing off a device that would plug into an agp slot, and act as a virtual pci-express slot. Basically pci express cards could plug into it. Don't think it ever made it to market though.

Asus makes it, tho it's only guaranteed to run with a handful of their cards, and good luck hacking your case to get your card to fit.

Really?! What cards does it run? What's the name of this product anyhow, I couldn't find it on Asus's site.

 

[Hummanoid Typhoon]

I dunno about ASUS but albatron make one that works the other way.
http://www.albatron.com.tw/english/it/vga/pro_list.asp

Think it's a similar concept.

 

[Brichy]

Ey guys what do yu think about this:
6800 gs (agp native, can be unclocked to 16 pipes, easily overclocked core to: 420, mem: 1.1 Ghz)
vs
7800 gs (agp with bridge chip, 16 pipes, core: 350, overclock??? don´t know yet and it will be more expensive)

I don´t think there will be a great performance differences between these cards. I think I will buy the 6800 gs agp.

 

[Hummanoid Typhoon]

your assuming that the card will have 16 pipes

it's highly possible considering they will want a card significantly better than the 6800gs that it will have 20 or 24 pipes. The HSI shouldn't limit clock to 350 6600gt's clock at 500 with a bridge chip.