AGPers.. rejoice!!

[Tom]

Originally posted by: ToddMcF2002
Isnt the $200 x850XT a myth though? I'm on backorder for one and I'm pretty certain Microcenter is NOT going to honor those orders.

Its really a $350 card making the 7800GS that much more attractive. Same performance as a x850XT or slightly better, future proofed against 3.0 shaders and potentially less money (~$300).

I just bought the $190(240-50 rebate+tax on 240,but i don't count tax ) x850xt at a Micro Center store today, they had 7 or 8 on the shelf and two cases in the back; so it isn't a myth.

Question for all- how will the x850xt compare with an agp x1600 in games that do and don't support shader 3.0 ? And how long will it be before an x1600 sells for $200 ? Or an equivalent agp nvidia card ?

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Chriz
Yes, I am definately going AMD next time. But for now, I am screwed with Intel. I probably won't be building a whole new system for another year, that's when I will go AMD.

Ha, how about me, I've got an Athlon XP system. Thankfully, overclocked I'm still getting around low end athlon 64 performance (3000+ type level), I just bought an x800xt to replace my slow 6600gt. (which I bought because my 9700 pro was aging but I wasn't willing to spring for a geforce 6800)

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
so, i'd say nVidia is considering AGP midrange . . . not "low end afterthought" . . . they still have to cater to the 70% of users still on AGP . . .

When this card comes out there will be 20, 24, 32 pipeline cards on top of it. (not to mention the 32 and 40 pipe single sli cards, or other possible variants of the 32 pipe card)

If you think having the 4th most pipelines, and at least the fourth slowest clock speeds is "midrange" and "no problem, AGP to stay", good for you.

It doesn't take a "hardware snob" to see 16 pipe cards that don't say X1800 are getting the faces ground into the dirt and the demand to "eat" issued by new games. If you want to keep playing 10X7, go nuts. Some of us want to see the modern stuff.

you are stating your 'elitist' [read HW SNOB] opinion as fact . . . as usual

fact is, we just don't know what will be released or if AGP will settle into the 4th fastest place or not . . . some of us just want to game . . . not show off "the latest" big bucks purchase we made.
:thumbsdown:

7800GS is a nice "start".

This coming from a potential Xfire candidate? However will you accomplish this on your AGP board? You should really try and make up your mind about this. I see you advocating AGP, and at the same time, planning to sneak away to PCI-e yourself, if what you said about upgrading to an xfire system was actually true. IMHO.

you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

it's pretty clear that i plan to change my platform to PCIe and even possibly to xfire/sli . . . what is it about "not now" that you fail to comprehend?

 

[Munky]

An x800xt or similar would be bottlenecked by an AXP or a older P4, so while you'd still see an improvement, in the long run it would be better to switch to A64 if you have the money. I was in a similar boat about half a year ago, and no matter how much I liked my oc'd xp-m 2500 and 9800p, I decided instead of getting a agp x800xt to swithch to A64/pci-e, and sell my old parts while they were still worth something. I'm glad I made that choice now.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

Your "hardware hippie" antics are tiresome:

"The MAN is holding us DOWN brothers! The MAN wants you to buy PCIE, the devils slot engineered in the pit of Hell!"

While the rest of the freaking world is saying, "Hmmm they changed motherboard types. Guess I better upgrade".

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

Your "hardware hippie" antics are tiresome:

"The MAN is holding us DOWN brothers! The MAN wants you to buy PCIE, the devils slot engineered in the pit of Hell!"

While the rest of the freaking world is saying, "Hmmm they changed motherboard types. Guess I better upgrade".

LMAO:laugh:, too funny

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

Your "hardware hippie" antics are tiresome:

"The MAN is holding us DOWN brothers! The MAN wants you to buy PCIE, the devils slot engineered in the pit of Hell!"

While the rest of the freaking world is saying, "Hmmm they changed motherboard types. Guess I better upgrade".

LMAO:laugh:, too funny

No, it's more like " they are screwing us again brothers!!! Better get some lube to ease the pain!!!"

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

Your "hardware hippie" antics are tiresome:

"The MAN is holding us DOWN brothers! The MAN wants you to buy PCIE, the devils slot engineered in the pit of Hell!"

While the rest of the freaking world is saying, "Hmmm they changed motherboard types. Guess I better upgrade".

and your HW snob antics are beyond irritating

whos the "rest" of the freaking world . . . 70% - the majority - have AGP.

and the "rest" of us WILL "upgrade" . . . or migrate to PCIe . . . when we feel the need . . . not because marketing says "jump now".
:thumbsdown:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

Your "hardware hippie" antics are tiresome:

"The MAN is holding us DOWN brothers! The MAN wants you to buy PCIE, the devils slot engineered in the pit of Hell!"

While the rest of the freaking world is saying, "Hmmm they changed motherboard types. Guess I better upgrade".

LMAO:laugh:, too funny

No, it's more like " they are screwing us again brothers!!! Better get some lube to ease the pain!!!"

There have been many times over the years when I've felt the same way. The AT/ATX case thing. Any shift between single slot graphics has been without performance improvement.

At least with this one you can get the flexibility of SLI in the bargain.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: CKXP

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

Your "hardware hippie" antics are tiresome:

"The MAN is holding us DOWN brothers! The MAN wants you to buy PCIE, the devils slot engineered in the pit of Hell!"

While the rest of the freaking world is saying, "Hmmm they changed motherboard types. Guess I better upgrade".

LMAO:laugh:, too funny

No, it's more like " they are screwing us again brothers!!! Better get some lube to ease the pain!!!"

There have been many times over the years when I've felt the same way. The AT/ATX case thing. Any shift between single slot graphics has been without performance improvement.

At least with this one you can get the flexibility of SLI in the bargain.

sli or xfire is no bargain to most of us . . .

 

[Matt2]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
you are also becoming a HW snob . . . and you only read my posts without understanding.

Your "hardware hippie" antics are tiresome:

"The MAN is holding us DOWN brothers! The MAN wants you to buy PCIE, the devils slot engineered in the pit of Hell!"

While the rest of the freaking world is saying, "Hmmm they changed motherboard types. Guess I better upgrade".

and your HW snob antics are beyond irritating

whos the "rest" of the freaking world . . . 70% - the majority - have AGP.

and the "rest" of us WILL "upgrade" . . . or migrate to PCIe . . . when we feel the need . . . not because marketing says "jump now".
:thumbsdown:

I bet at least 40% of that 70% dont even know what a video card, let alone an AGP slot is/

Seriously though. The industry has moved in another direction. Those of you who made the choice to stick to AGP should realize that that was your decision. Nvidia and ATI have no obligation to spend their money to keep manufacturing products that are no longer industry standard.

Besides, not creating any AGP products is the ONLY way for PCI-E to overtake AGP. If there were AGP equivalents to the PCI-E cards would you AGP users EVER make the move? Probably not.

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: Matt2

Besides, not creating any AGP products is the ONLY way for PCI-E to overtake AGP. If there were AGP equivalents to the PCI-E cards would you AGP users EVER make the move? Probably not.

Yes, but I think you are missing the point. There was nothing wrong with AGP slot to begin with (perhaps you couldn't do SLI with 2x 8X AGP slots?). All other things aside, any videocard on AGP slot and PCIe will give equal performance if it is the same videocard. Thus, does switching to PCIe warrant spending $100 on a new motherboard? (and for some users a new cpu that is barely faster than their older system?). From return on investment, switching to PCIe never made sense. However, like you mentioned, the industry is heading there so we have to follow since there is no choice on the high-end for AGP users. I just think it's a matter of principle -- why spend more for no difference in performance just because everyone else is willing to? At least with SATA, the switching costs were low and the cables less bulky.

Yet, for the consumer switching to PCIe (besides SLI) provides 0 tangible benefit all things being equal in a test system. For the manufacturer it solves a lot of problems - produce and budget for 1 standard only and relieve any worries associated with estimating demand for 2 standards; and alleviate issues with power mgmt since AGP slot provides what? 48W and PCIe 75W or something along those lines? Thus the circuitry and 2 power headers on the card would have increased costs for Nvidia and ATI perhaps. Since both can sell motherboards, and resolve the videocard issues, migration to PCIe was the next logical step from the supply side.

 

[unholy414]

So with the discussion about Nvidia releasing the 7800gs and not releasing the 7800gs, have they confirmed any of this?

I saw an announcement about them not releasing a PCI-E version of it, is the AGP still on the way or is the 7800 line of cards now stictly PCI-E?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Matt2

Originally posted by: apoppin
whos the "rest" of the freaking world . . . 70% - the majority - have AGP.

and the "rest" of us WILL "upgrade" . . . or migrate to PCIe . . . when we feel the need . . . not because marketing says "jump now".
:thumbsdown:

I bet at least 40% of that 70% dont even know what a video card, let alone an AGP slot is/

Seriously though. The industry has moved in another direction. Those of you who made the choice to stick to AGP should realize that that was your decision. Nvidia and ATI have no obligation to spend their money to keep manufacturing products that are no longer industry standard.

Besides, not creating any AGP products is the ONLY way for PCI-E to overtake AGP. If there were AGP equivalents to the PCI-E cards would you AGP users EVER make the move? Probably not.

probably more than 90% of that seventy will just buy another computer . . . instead of upgrading the MB.

WHAT "decision to stick with AGP"?
:Q

my CPU is "capable" along with the rest of my rig . . . a PCIe MB change would be big bucks now and be a 'sidegrade' as PCIe offers nothing [yet] over AGP performancewise.

At a point in time - i'm guessing a year or two - the REST of my rig will fall behind . . . THEN is when i will move to PCIe . . . along with DC/BluRay/multicoreGPU or xfire and a PPU and [probably] Vista.

a move to PCIe - now, for me - makes zero sense

all i would like now - is an AGP card that is faster than my x850xt@PE and with more FEATURES . . . for another year or two . . . then i PROMISE, i'll dump AGP with the rest of my rig [assuming i have money then . . . i plan to]

 

[CKXP]

i think it's fair to say that ATI nor NV really don't care about the high end AGP market. the
7800GTX launched the 22nd of June the 7800GT launches Aug. 11th, first word of the 7800GS in PCIe flavor is Nov 22nd, then rumors surface about it being AGP shortly after.

nearly seven months has passed since the release of the 7800GTX, and the only one card has been released in AGP featuring the G70 architecture. the 7800gs is too little too late in IMO, it's nothing more than a replacement for the 6800Ultra. if this card was released in Dec., make no doubt about it, i would have been first in line to buy it. so far it's expected in early Feb.

the only thing i see promising about this card is that it will be using the same G70 110nm core as the 7800GTX/GT with the disable pipes. i'm sure the 7800GS will have plenty of OCing potential. i wouldn't be suprised to see a OC'd 7800GS pushing 450/1200

 

[Matt2]

What's that saying? Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take a step forward?

Ok... maybe I made that up, LOL.

But you get my point.

Seriously though guys, just wait till M2 and G80/R600, no point in spending ANY money on a CPU/mobo now anyways.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Matt2
What's that saying? Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take a step forward?

Ok... maybe I made that up, LOL.

But you get my point.

Seriously though guys, just wait till M2 and G80/R600, no point in spending ANY money on a CPU/mobo now anyways.

i dunno, that was my plan . . . my display just went black on my new x850xt . . . exactly what happened on my 9800xt [and this time it's "Stoclk" speed and stock working fan . . . so it goes back to MC, anyway . . . i doubt they have replacements . . . anyway]

. . . i am guessing my MB's AGP voltage is out of range . . . it says 1.52v at default in BIOS . . .

so now it's a whole new ballgame . . . [damn]

i need a new MB. . . anyone know of a PCIe board that fits a Northwood P4 or a dual AGP/PCIe solution. . . i'd prefer the PCIe board for NW. . .

?

 

[will889]

ASUS P4GD1 does support your 2.8C and has PCIe, but is hard to find.

 

[Hummanoid Typhoon]

has anyone seen any more news about the agp release? Finalised specs... etc??

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: will889
ASUS P4GD1 does support your 2.8C and has PCIe, but is hard to find.

thank-you . . . however, it looks like it only supports Prescott [2.8E] instead of NW [2.80c].

At any rate, i tried hooking up my card several times and the display remained black . . . tried hooking up the DVI to AGP adapter and the 2nd display was fine [but couldn't be changed from 60hz . . . is that "usual"?] . . . and now the 1st works again . . .

weird . . . i'm back to playing FEAR with no issues but will watch this card closely . . . i still have 2-1/2 weeks to return it and it has [the old ati] 3 year warranty . . .

 

[Oddballz]

ATI and the FEAR game has their share of abnormalities. If it isn't a driver issue then I'd look at your CPU overclocking and bump it down to either stock 2.8ghz or at least half way there. If you have to trade in your x850pe because you don't like its performance, then either your system has one or two bugs or you are just impossible to please. I personally wouldn't trade in that video card for anything short of 24 pipelines. I don't think you'd be satisfied with the phantom 7800gs or the 6800 ultra (if u can find one). So basically, if 3ghz and an 850pe isn't doing the trick, something is wrong.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: RussianSensation

Originally posted by: Matt2

Besides, not creating any AGP products is the ONLY way for PCI-E to overtake AGP. If there were AGP equivalents to the PCI-E cards would you AGP users EVER make the move? Probably not.

Yes, but I think you are missing the point. There was nothing wrong with AGP slot to begin with (perhaps you couldn't do SLI with 2x 8X AGP slots?). All other things aside, any videocard on AGP slot and PCIe will give equal performance if it is the same videocard. Thus, does switching to PCIe warrant spending $100 on a new motherboard? (and for some users a new cpu that is barely faster than their older system?). From return on investment, switching to PCIe never made sense. However, like you mentioned, the industry is heading there so we have to follow since there is no choice on the high-end for AGP users. I just think it's a matter of principle -- why spend more for no difference in performance just because everyone else is willing to? At least with SATA, the switching costs were low and the cables less bulky.

Yet, for the consumer switching to PCIe (besides SLI) provides 0 tangible benefit all things being equal in a test system. For the manufacturer it solves a lot of problems - produce and budget for 1 standard only and relieve any worries associated with estimating demand for 2 standards; and alleviate issues with power mgmt since AGP slot provides what? 48W and PCIe 75W or something along those lines? Thus the circuitry and 2 power headers on the card would have increased costs for Nvidia and ATI perhaps. Since both can sell motherboards, and resolve the videocard issues, migration to PCIe was the next logical step from the supply side.

And the swith to PCIe was made for 3 reasons. A.) the Whole 8x is garbage. AGP was developed as a shorterm solution to the need to use a faster connection to PCI. Then Intel in all of its glory found shortcut after short cut (which they brought to us one at a time) to improve the Theoretical bandwidth, in actuallity they brobably are unable to transfer something around the numbers of the AGP 4x spec. AGP 8x was more for changing the power then anything else. B.) Power, This doesn't matter to us 7800GTX users or 6800 or X800 users. This matters to 6600, X600, X1600, 6200, X300, and X1300 users. Buy supplying more power to he slots they don't have to grab power from an under powered rail on the that being used by you hard drives and optical drives. This lowers Costs for everyone. C.) Flexibility, remember PCIe is here to replace AGP, PCI, and PCIX. Never will we see again the kind of diversions in mobo designs as we are going to see once mobos start having 50+ lanes and everyone starts making PCIe cards for everything. Selling any of the older slots is just going to slow down its adoption rate by card manufacturers which will lower the amount of lanes manufacturers put on their boards. D.) Legacy is so 90s, we need to stop slowing down progress just for the sake of legacy support for products that only have a years more life in them anyways.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: RussianSensation

Originally posted by: Matt2

Besides, not creating any AGP products is the ONLY way for PCI-E to overtake AGP. If there were AGP equivalents to the PCI-E cards would you AGP users EVER make the move? Probably not.

Yes, but I think you are missing the point. There was nothing wrong with AGP slot to begin with (perhaps you couldn't do SLI with 2x 8X AGP slots?). All other things aside, any videocard on AGP slot and PCIe will give equal performance if it is the same videocard. Thus, does switching to PCIe warrant spending $100 on a new motherboard? (and for some users a new cpu that is barely faster than their older system?). From return on investment, switching to PCIe never made sense. However, like you mentioned, the industry is heading there so we have to follow since there is no choice on the high-end for AGP users. I just think it's a matter of principle -- why spend more for no difference in performance just because everyone else is willing to? At least with SATA, the switching costs were low and the cables less bulky.

Yet, for the consumer switching to PCIe (besides SLI) provides 0 tangible benefit all things being equal in a test system. For the manufacturer it solves a lot of problems - produce and budget for 1 standard only and relieve any worries associated with estimating demand for 2 standards; and alleviate issues with power mgmt since AGP slot provides what? 48W and PCIe 75W or something along those lines? Thus the circuitry and 2 power headers on the card would have increased costs for Nvidia and ATI perhaps. Since both can sell motherboards, and resolve the videocard issues, migration to PCIe was the next logical step from the supply side.

And the swith to PCIe was made for 3 reasons. A.) the Whole 8x is garbage. AGP was developed as a shorterm solution to the need to use a faster connection to PCI. Then Intel in all of its glory found shortcut after short cut (which they brought to us one at a time) to improve the Theoretical bandwidth, in actuallity they brobably are unable to transfer something around the numbers of the AGP 4x spec. AGP 8x was more for changing the power then anything else. B.) Power, This doesn't matter to us 7800GTX users or 6800 or X800 users. This matters to 6600, X600, X1600, 6200, X300, and X1300 users. Buy supplying more power to he slots they don't have to grab power from an under powered rail on the that being used by you hard drives and optical drives. This lowers Costs for everyone. C.) Flexibility, remember PCIe is here to replace AGP, PCI, and PCIX. Never will we see again the kind of diversions in mobo designs as we are going to see once mobos start having 50+ lanes and everyone starts making PCIe cards for everything. Selling any of the older slots is just going to slow down its adoption rate by card manufacturers which will lower the amount of lanes manufacturers put on their boards. D.) Legacy is so 90s, we need to stop slowing down progress just for the sake of legacy support for products that only have a years more life in them anyways.

I'm going to take a stab here :

You either have enough money to buy all the parts needed for a PCIe system or you already own one.

Next stab: Can I borrow some money?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Oddballz
ATI and the FEAR game has their share of abnormalities. If it isn't a driver issue then I'd look at your CPU overclocking and bump it down to either stock 2.8ghz or at least half way there. If you have to trade in your x850pe because you don't like its performance, then either your system has one or two bugs or you are just impossible to please. I personally wouldn't trade in that video card for anything short of 24 pipelines. I don't think you'd be satisfied with the phantom 7800gs or the 6800 ultra (if u can find one). So basically, if 3ghz and an 850pe isn't doing the trick, something is wrong.

i guess you are talking to me [?]

no abnormalities with FEAR and my x850xt . . . runs great at 10x7 with minimal AA/4xAF or 11x8 with none . . . i did have the display go black while i was surfing the net . . . wondered if it was AGP voltage [+.2v] but doubt it . . . cpu O/C is stable . . .

. . . .as to "trading" up my x850xt . . . i was just musing . . . big upgrade is next year or so.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: remagavon
Stop being so damn condescending. Stop posting drunk, it makes you seem like an asshole.

I just get sick of arguing what to seem like self evident points to me. AGP is obviously largely been abandoned by the industry, and releasing a 4th tier card isn't the herald of it's triumphant return, or indicative of better stuff to come.

If they wanted to mine this "70% market" they'd obviously slap bridge chips on all the existing cards and sell them.

They want you to buy their motherboards.

So the idea IMO is to wait as long as possible before major upgrades. Otherwise why buy a mobo that you can upgrade? Just as well buy the cheapest damn POS you can find if it's goona be obsolete in a year??

They damn well better make some higher end AGP cards, or that is exactly what I will do from now on and they can sell their mobo's to Dell and Gateway for all I care.