Air pollution in Beijing deadly for humans

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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Yes, it does. That's why your Defeatist attitude is useless. It just allows the status quo to continue. Thus becoming a Self-Fulfilling prophecy.

The status quo is the continuation of the current state of things: more technology, more science, more more and more. That is the status quo.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
The status quo is the continuation of the current state of things: more technology, more science, more more and more. That is the status quo.

Nope. The status quo is Exploitation. What you have just pointed out is the Anti-thesis of the Status Quo, it is constant Change.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Nope. The status quo is Exploitation. What you have just pointed out is the Anti-thesis of the Status Quo, it is constant Change.

The original subject was the destruction of nature. You're saying that technology is to be welcomed in that regard, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. What I'm saying is that there is a price to be paid for everything. If you want progress, then you have to pay for that. Something cannot come from nothing. The more we develop, the more the earth suffers. Whether this is technologically, economically, politically or anything else.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
The original subject was the destruction of nature. You're saying that technology is to be welcomed in that regard, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. What I'm saying is that there is a price to be paid for everything. If you want progress, then you have to pay for that. Something cannot come from nothing. The more we develop, the more the earth suffers. Whether this is technologically, economically, politically or anything else.

I am saying you are wrong. You want to draw a 1:1 ratio with Technology/Progress and that is not accurate in the least. The PC and Internet, for eg, have dramatically increased Information flow without increasing the Deforestation that would have been necessary to achieve that in the past. Technology increases Efficiency.

Certainly it requires Resources, but even if we stopped it in its' tracks, we would still require Resources. As for Pollution, the Technology exists to dramatically decrease it and future technologies will only decrease it further. Our biggest problems are not caused by Technology, they are caused by Us not implementing better Technology due to Cost, "Freedom", or simple lack of Political Will.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,648
5,331
136
Wow, that's nasty. It's only a matter of time before China makes their own EPA with strict standards. One Heat Wave with those conditions will kill thousand, perhaps 10s of thousands, and they'll have no choice but act.

I don't see the Chinese government getting in a twitter over a few thousand dead citizens. Take a look at how many miners they kill every year.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0


Yeah, because living in that doesn't shorten life spans at all! /sarcasm

Science once again proves the obvious.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Yeah, because living in that doesn't shorten life spans at all! /sarcasm

Science once again proves the obvious.

I dont think anyone says pollution is good. On the other hand, people still want huge TVs, smartphones, and lots of light. Plus a largely inefficient living. The problem is the incentive is too low to change, just look at the USA. The most wasteful country in the world. And why? Lack of incentive to change. Try lookup how many americans die due to coal fired powerplants alone in the US, and there are coming more of those. Unlike the eurozone, the US actually increases its energy demand. The US dont transform a 100 million people into western lifestyle every year.



Its like the old poverb. Dont throw rocks when you live in a glasshouse.

Its the EU+USA+Japan that needs to spearhead a cleaner world. Then it doesnt help if we consume more and then try to get everyone else to use less.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,880
34,829
136
Try lookup how many americans die due to coal fired powerplants alone in the US, and there are coming more of those. Unlike the eurozone, the US actually increases its energy demand.

A large number of coal plants are slated to close in the near future due to increased regulatory pressure and the sheer economics of currently abundant natural gas. US electrical demand has decreased or been flat since 2008. US oil demand is also declining.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
A large number of coal plants are slated to close in the near future due to increased regulatory pressure and the sheer economics of currently abundant natural gas. US electrical demand has decreased or been flat since 2008. US oil demand is also declining.

The coal fired power plant that's 15 miles as the crow flies where I live is in the process of retrofitting one of the coal fired boilers for CO2 sequestration.

http://www.nrgenergy.com/petranova/waparish.html

 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
Our biggest problems are not caused by Technology, they are caused by Us not implementing better Technology due to Cost, "Freedom", or simple lack of Political Will.

Or by implementing technology in an irresponsible way. But yes, you are right that not the technology but the people wielding it are responsible for whatever good or bad results. Yet you have 'hope' that we can find a necessary balance between protecting the planet while maintaining our current standards of living. I admire your optimism but wish it was based on something a little more concrete than a chipper attitude.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,880
34,829
136
The coal fired power plant that's 15 miles as the crow flies where I live is in the process of retrofitting one of the coal fired boilers for CO2 sequestration.

http://www.nrgenergy.com/petranova/waparish.html


Sequestration is an interesting approach however I have significant doubts it will ever be cost effective or suitable for large scale implementation.

I'd prefer the utility industry invest significantly more in renewable energy and nuclear to balance out this rapid shift to natural gas.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
ehhhhh, as long as most of that crap stays over there, i couldnt care less.

Damn right...you can have all the pollution that you want as long as you ship me the cheap iPhone (and everything else that we need cheap). Throw in a little money lending to us to keep us afloat and all is well.

/sarcasm
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
I knew you would have that attitude. Its ok for you to pollute 4 times more than a chinese. And you want others to reduce their pollution and do all the work? You are a hypocrite.

If the US just got down to european pollution per capita amount. 10% of the worlds pollution would be gone.

Are you a member of the chinese government? Polution is wrong period.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
I knew you would have that attitude. Its ok for you to pollute 4 times more than a chinese. And you want others to reduce their pollution and do all the work? You are a hypocrite.

If the US just got down to european pollution per capita amount. 10% of the worlds pollution would be gone.

Air quality should never be measured per capita.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
It's like I have said many times before, we demand our industries clean up thier act and claim it is worth it to pay a little extra to do that but then we just turn around and purchase from countries that don't.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Are you a member of the chinese government? Polution is wrong period.

Nope. Are you are member of a lobbyist group?

Nobody says pollution is right. But its our responsibility in the west to drive the changes. Specially when Europe+USA+Japan accounts for for the wast majority of world pollution, not to mention histotic pollution, yet we are smaller than China or India in population. Its just us who are at stable energy consumption levels. And thereby can easier drive an actual decrease. Specially when we already uses alot more than everyone else.

If you wanted clean air in the US, you would do more domestic. But the fact is you dont. The economic growth or fear of losing growth is put way above clean air in the US. There is only 2 countries in the world that wont cooperate on pollution reduction. One is the developing country China, the other is the industialized USA. And the USA is the key blocker in all negotiations.

It happend in Copenhagen at COP15, it have continued now ever since. Last event in Doha:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20650534

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mate-talks-eyes-on-us-for-next-round/1756877/

The two-week talks in Doha ended with an extension of the Kyoto Protocol, which was to expire this year, but which now will only cover 15% of global emissions since several developed countries, including Japan and Canada, have opted out. The U.S. never ratified the accord.

Nation of hypocrites and stallers. Never a doubt that certain nations put money before people.
 
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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
We dont want clean air???? Im sorry show me a city today that even comes close to the polution levels of china. I bet if if you combined the polution found today in ny, la houston, denver, miami, chicago, st louis that the numbers would not even scratch the levels of polution in beijing.

The us has done a lot to improve air quality, denver in the 80's eas nasty, today the brown cloud is bearly noticable.
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
We dont want clean air???? Im sorry show me a city today that even comes close to the polution levels of china. I bet if if you combined the polution found today in ny, la houston, denver, miami, chicago, st louis that the numbers would not even scratch the levels of polution in beijing.

The us has done a lot to improve air quality, denver in the 80's eas nasty, today the brown cloud is bearly noticable.

Bakersfield is a real treat.



Yumyum, take a deep breath.

Visalia and Porterville.



Philidelphia:


Or a trip to the big apple.
 
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