Air pollution in Beijing deadly for humans

[Doppel]

Bakersfield is a real treat.

Yumyum, take a deep breath.

Visalia and Porterville.

Philidelphia:

Or a trip to the big apple.

How much of that is just fog?

You raise a clear point regardless which is that pictures are easily used to argument this issue in any way and not really worth of much recognition without numbers behind them. I am sure that in general the air quality in NYC is better than that in Beijing, regardless of what pictures may hint at.

 

[1prophet]

How about the US apply the same type of standards that they apply to sexual exploitation of foreign children.

You go overseas to exploit children because of lax or non existent laws you can face punishment in the US for it when you come back, likewise

if a corporation uses foreign labor to bypass EPA, OSHA, or Labor regulations they should be subject to the same penalties as if they have done it here if they want to sell their product in the USA.

 

[OutHouse]

Bakersfield is a real treat.

Yumyum, take a deep breath.

Visalia and Porterville.

Philidelphia:

Or a trip to the big apple.

those photos are useless unless you can provide dates and reason forthe haze. Last summer Denver looked like that but it was due to the big ass forest fires that went on all summer not from man made pollution.

http://alg.umbc.edu/usaq/

lets see Utah has the worst pollution in the us right now. due to air quality being in the red zone of 151-200 on a 0-500 scale. but Beijing just went off the fucking carts to 755 on the AQI and you are bashing the US and Japan??? fuck off.

 

[sandorski]

Or by implementing technology in an irresponsible way. But yes, you are right that not the technology but the people wielding it are responsible for whatever good or bad results. Yet you have 'hope' that we can find a necessary balance between protecting the planet while maintaining our current standards of living. I admire your optimism but wish it was based on something a little more concrete than a chipper attitude.

Ya, I understand. I just don't think throwing Science/Technology/Progress under the bus is the solution.

 

[ShintaiDK]

How much of that is just fog?

None.

You raise a clear point regardless which is that pictures are easily used to argument this issue in any way and not really worth of much recognition without numbers behind them. I am sure that in general the air quality in NYC is better than that in Beijing, regardless of what pictures may hint at.

I think the common misperception is geographic conditions and location. I doubt Bakersfield actually produce more than New York for example. New York just got the benefit of the sea and wast lowland areas to absorb it. Where as Bakersfield got mountains on each side.

Visalia and Porterville is basicly just getting Bakersfield pollution as well. So you get an acculumated effect. Fresno and Sacramento included. All surrounded by mountains essentially. Alot is simply about location.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

None.



I think the common misperception is geographic conditions and location. I doubt Bakersfield actually produce more than New York for example. New York just got the benefit of the sea and wast lowland areas to absorb it. Where as Bakersfield got mountains on each side.

Visalia and Porterville is basicly just getting Bakersfield pollution as well. So you get an acculumated effect. Fresno and Sacramento included. All surrounded by mountains essentially. Alot is simply about location.

Have you ever heard of the word smog? If so, which two words make up the word smog?

Have you actually been to any of those cities?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Have you ever heard of the word smog? If so, which two words make up the word smog?

Have you actually been to any of those cities?

Do you know the word haze?

I have been in New York for example. But also in Beijing, Guangzhou, Tokyo, Milano, Paris, Moscow, Madrid, London etc. Do you even own a passport?

If you want to play the location game, I doubt many here can actually say they have been there.

 

[dawheat]

Not sure I understand all the attempted misdirection in this thread - why shouldn't China be criticized for placing their citizens in a highly unhealthy, man-made situation? This isn't some podunk town, this is Beijing, the capital of China. China clearly has the wealth and means to take steps to curb this, they just haven't historically prioritized their environment.

Beyond the quality of life, the actual lives lost, there are going to be long term health consequences for every person who has to live in that environment. Criticism shouldn't matter coming from the outside, it's those who have to live in those situations that should be raising a ruckus.

I also love hearing about pollution per capita - it's equally as important as pollution by GDP (where China would be about 3X as bad).

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Bakersfield is a real treat.

Yumyum, take a deep breath.

Visalia and Porterville.

Philidelphia:

Or a trip to the big apple.

Those photos aren't even close to that of Beijing. In the past 4 months I've lived in Beijing, Nanjing, Shanghai. Beijing's pollution as well as Nanjing's saw high rise buildings disappear into the haze within a quarter of a mile.

We in the States think it's bad when visibility is cut down to 2 miles. Your pics of Philly show visibility that is at least a few miles. Yes, it's bad, of course. But we're talking 1,100 ft in the case of Beijing and Nanjing.

 

[Engineer]

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/01/ch...-fiber-optic-connections/?utm_source=mariners

at least they get fast internet.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Those photos aren't even close to that of Beijing. In the past 4 months I've lived in Beijing, Nanjing, Shanghai. Beijing's pollution as well as Nanjing's saw high rise buildings disappear into the haze within a quarter of a mile.

We in the States think it's bad when visibility is cut down to 2 miles. Your pics of Philly show visibility that is at least a few miles. Yes, it's bad, of course. But we're talking 1,100 ft in the case of Beijing and Nanjing.

Yep, my point is not to defend air pollution in any way for any country. But its simply a matter of worse picking on worst. Rather than actually fixing it on the homefront before pointing fingers. Not to mention that "China damages the rest of us" attitude. Yet we all saw how our own past was.

What mainly bugs me is that countries like US, Canada, Japan and China plays the noncooperative attitude game every time some kind of world agreement is close. The EU27 already agree on a 20% to 30 reduction. In Denmark for example our goal for 2020 is 50% renewable electricity and 35% for the entire energy mix. The scottish got even greater ambitions with 80% on electricity. The extra cost in closing the coal power plants prematurely and focus on renewable energy, will in 2020 cost a household an additional 49$ on yearly expenses for electricity. But that will also save around 400 danes a year, even tho we got some of the most efficient and clean coal plants in the world. Not to mention all the people that can avoid any disease related to that.

Economic growth and energy saving and green energy also goes hand in hand. Unlike what some might get told. In Denmark we for example lowered the energy consumption 20% while increasing the GDP 40%.
And specially the US got every possible option to master it. Yet they keep falling back into some conservative mindset and stall.

Its simply the will missing, nothing else.

I guess this is the extreme version of what the US currently bets on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBjSXWQRV8

 

[Svnla]

Do you know the word haze?

I have been in New York for example. But also in Beijing, Guangzhou, Tokyo, Milano, Paris, Moscow, Madrid, London etc. Do you even own a passport?

If you want to play the location game, I doubt many here can actually say they have been there.

I wanna play.

I have been to NYC a few times then (not in any order) Detroit, Central NJ, Atlanta, Miami to Key West, Minnesota, LA, All the big four cities in TX, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Little Rock, Las Vegas, Memphis, and a few more cities in the US.

I also have been to Japan, S. Korea, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia, Singapore then a few cities in Central America plus Mexico.

I haven't been to Europe and Africa yet. Soon I hope. Looking forward to my trip to Australia in a few months.

<<<---- love to travel.

 

[DCal430]

Compared to the US, they can polute basicly 4 times as much as they do now. And be in they "right" to do so. Per capita the US is the number 1 poluter in the world. Its the last country on earth that should tell or educate anyone else in this matter.

Perhapsm also explains why the US wont agree on international commitments in the area.

Not true at all. Per capita the U.S is lower than Australia, and a few countries in Europe and is about the same as Canada.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Los Angeles in the 1960's

This is more like the Beijing and Nanjing I saw less than two weeks ago.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/01/ch...-fiber-optic-connections/?utm_source=mariners

at least they get fast internet.

Doesn't fucking matter if half of their internet is blocked.

The government can monitor and listen into your Skype chats and WeChat chats, among others. And they do. Every day. If you text someone something that the government filter catches, you will get a response from the government.

All the major US and UK news sites are basically blocked.

If the government doesn't like a blog post of your's, it just deletes it. It just goes into your account and deletes it. Simple as that.

If you're an internet social media or communication business wanting to do business in China, you have to give the government unfettered access to all of your users' accounts and communications. Otherwise you'll never do business in China.

If you want to use the internet, you have to register with your ISP your government ID, which the ISP then forwards to the government. So it then knows that it is exactly YOU who is using that internet connection.

Lots of foreign sites with Chinese language versions of China's recent history (like Tianmen Square Massacre) are blocked. And of course not taught in schools.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Yep, my point is not to defend air pollution in any way for any country. But its simply a matter of worse picking on worst. Rather than actually fixing it on the homefront before pointing fingers. Not to mention that "China damages the rest of us" attitude. Yet we all saw how our own past was.

What mainly bugs me is that countries like US, Canada, Japan and China plays the noncooperative attitude game every time some kind of world agreement is close. The EU27 already agree on a 20% to 30 reduction. In Denmark for example our goal for 2020 is 50% renewable electricity and 35% for the entire energy mix. The scottish got even greater ambitions with 80% on electricity. The extra cost in closing the coal power plants prematurely and focus on renewable energy, will in 2020 cost a household an additional 49$ on yearly expenses for electricity. But that will also save around 400 danes a year, even tho we got some of the most efficient and clean coal plants in the world. Not to mention all the people that can avoid any disease related to that.

Economic growth and energy saving and green energy also goes hand in hand. Unlike what some might get told. In Denmark we for example lowered the energy consumption 20% while increasing the GDP 40%.
And specially the US got every possible option to master it. Yet they keep falling back into some conservative mindset and stall.

Its simply the will missing, nothing else.

I guess this is the extreme version of what the US currently bets on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LBjSXWQRV8

I agree. It angers me to no end our goddamn conservative mindset when it comes to investment in renewable energy independence. Especially when other countries like Germany are on the fast track to this goal, and they're much better off because of it.

But I think there's something that can be said about "do as I say, not as I do." We ALL should know better. Especially China. At least our air in the US is still relatively clean in a lot of places.

Within the past 4 months I've been to: Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing, Guilin, Xi'an. I have NEVER seen a blue sky during my entire time in these cities. I have never even seen the stars and the moon. One day in Beijing I could stare up at the foggy outline of the sun all day and not get blinded. I'm even afraid to take a deep breathe of air. When I leave this fucking country it'll be fine, but I've got friends and family who are stuck here.

The extent of pollution in China is just over the top. I think it is absolutely deserving of massive criticism. The fact that the central authoritarian government has allowed it to get to this point really says something about their priorities. It's definitely not the health of their own people, I'll tell you that.

In fact, China is a capitalist monster. I studied business and I am a business owner. But I am under absolutely no illusion that capitalism is the solution to everything, or even a lot of things. Capitalism can result in huge amounts of damage and suffering if left unchecked Minus the military expenditure, the Chinese government is worse than the US system in practically all ways.

It honestly scares me that China has turned into a world power. They've got all the money but little of the attributes or systems in place to use it responsibly.

 

[ShintaiDK]

As you point out, its capitalism at its worst. The main problem (specially) in the energy sector is when you make changes like this. You reshuffle the cards again.

The oil, gas and coal tycoons might be a nobody in the new wind, bio and solar for example. And alot of the electricity generation comes from private companies. Its a classic rerun of how a conservative company policy actually kills of the companies in the long run. But strange since proper investment would keep these companies ahead. In terms of pollution, the Hazelwood plant in Australia is one of the dirtiest plants in the world, thanks to brown coal. Yet it still runs, and will do so it seems till 2031. The average lifespan of a worker there is expected to be 15 years less than average. Classic western example of money before people.

This is also why we need government interaction and subsidizing to change the energy sector. Its not gonna happen by itself when all the "old" companies only wish to preserve status quo. Plus the energy prices only increase day by day. And after China, India will be the next power hungry country. And if you think China is bad....

In terms of China, while they do have a much more powerful government in terms of the ability to make changes. They are still a developing country that needs alot of our bureaucracy and rules in place to get a better effect out of it. And you need the entire organization in place to make the big changes.

There is for example 63Gw windpower capacity installed in China. And 47Gw in the US. And it grows with 50-100% a year. Its just not enough. To compare it grows with 10-20% in the US.

In Denmark for example, from this year, even gas as house heating is banned. We want everyone on district heating for both heat and water so the usage factor on garbage incinerators and coal/bio plants increases further. Plus the heating efficiency as such. But would this even be possible in the US for example? Ambitious rules for housing construction as well in terms of energy effiency and so on.

My household here uses less than 60$ a month on all energy related expenses. And its not because energy is cheap in any way. Yet we live a class A lifestyle without having to worry about what we do. Electricity alone only accounts for around 95Kw/h a month. Or around half the cost of our energy related bills.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Do you know the word haze?

I have been in New York for example. But also in Beijing, Guangzhou, Tokyo, Milano, Paris, Moscow, Madrid, London etc. Do you even own a passport?

If you want to play the location game, I doubt many here can actually say they have been there.

I've been in those cities and many many more. Hell, I've even been to your country....ever hear of Aarhus? I was in the US Navy for 12 years and worked as a worldwide field service rep. for 18 years. I've had 4 passports and 3 of them had to have additional pages added at least twice (one had pages added three times) to accommodate my travel.

 

[pcgeek11]

SoCal has a marine layer depending on weather conditions. How much of that is simply moisture? Hard to tell in black and white.

However, I will testify to your argument in general. LA has trouble with air quality.

LA is a giant bowl where everything settles.

 

[Exterous]

In Denmark for example our goal for 2020 is 50% renewable electricity and 35% for the entire energy mix. The scottish got even greater ambitions with 80% on electricity. The extra cost in closing the coal power plants prematurely and focus on renewable energy, will in 2020 cost a household an additional 49$ on yearly expenses for electricity. But that will also save around 400 danes a year, even tho we got some of the most efficient and clean coal plants in the world. Not to mention all the people that can avoid any disease related to that.

Economic growth and energy saving and green energy also goes hand in hand. Unlike what some might get told. In Denmark we for example lowered the energy consumption 20% while increasing the GDP 40%.
And specially the US got every possible option to master it. Yet they keep falling back into some conservative mindset and stall.

Its simply the will missing, nothing else.

We've been through this before - your trying to compare Denmark to the US is absurd at best. As a proclaimed world traveler it should be very obvious to you that there is a slight difference between Denmark and the US in terms of population and geography. Given the disparity your comparisons should be more akin to 'Because Denmark can do this - some cities in American could/should move this direction' (Which many are) NOT that the entire country could. This is not an argument that it couldn't but using a country with 1/63 the population and 1/228 the land area is a very very poor comparison

San Francisco might be 100% sustainable by 2020. Why aren't the Danes doing more to preserve the environment?!

Also - just because the EU27 agree on something doesn't mean it will actually happen. There have been some notable exceptions to the agreed upon debt limits

Furthermore - would you dismiss the environmental views of people from SF or Portland or Ann Arbor simply because you think the USA as an entirety is not doing enough? So while their areas are making great strides in the realm of sustainability their views are 'irritating' and you view them as having a double standard? Surely as a 'world traveler' you should know that views can vary by area and person. Why do you apply such opinions towards people that it would not apply to? Personally I try to judge people by what they say and do - not what others in their country do.

Note: This is not to say that changes cannot or should not be made in the US

 

[FerrelGeek]

Because everything is the fault of the US. We have to blame the US for everything to fit in with the progressives agenda of punishing us and reducing us to third world status.

/sarcasm

Your point is well taken. This is China's problem. The US isn't forcing them to live like this. China is also largely getting a buy from the MMGW zealots as well. If the world is indeed in such peril, the wrath of the zealots should be mainly directed at China right now.

Not sure I understand all the attempted misdirection in this thread - why shouldn't China be criticized for placing their citizens in a highly unhealthy, man-made situation? This isn't some podunk town, this is Beijing, the capital of China. China clearly has the wealth and means to take steps to curb this, they just haven't historically prioritized their environment.

Beyond the quality of life, the actual lives lost, there are going to be long term health consequences for every person who has to live in that environment. Criticism shouldn't matter coming from the outside, it's those who have to live in those situations that should be raising a ruckus.

I also love hearing about pollution per capita - it's equally as important as pollution by GDP (where China would be about 3X as bad).

 

[ShintaiDK]

We've been through this before

Yes, and like last time it was proved over and over again that the size nonsense didnt matter.

 

[Exterous]

Yes, and like last time it was proved over and over again that the size nonsense didnt matter.

Not so much - unless you call not responding to my counter points as 'proved over and over'. Unless you are trying to equate a discussion you had with someone else about GDP scaling to the costs and environmentalism of electricity usage? That wouldn't make any sense though. Do you really think country size doesn't matter when it comes to electricity usage?

But to address your actual post - if size doesn't matter why isn't Denmark trying to go 100% sustainable like San Francisco? I find it irritating and hypocritical that you should talk to us about environmental issues when you don't have a major city that has a goal of being 100% sustainable.

 

[K1052]

In Denmark for example, from this year, even gas as house heating is banned. We want everyone on district heating for both heat and water so the usage factor on garbage incinerators and coal/bio plants increases further. Plus the heating efficiency as such. But would this even be possible in the US for example? Ambitious rules for housing construction as well in terms of energy effiency and so on.

District heating isn't really an option for most of the US outside of expanding systems that are already in place (in Manhattan for example). However there are microturbine packages becoming available that can be installed in larger developments and for industrial use that can use the waste heat for HVAC needs. Effectively they are miniature co-generation plants located on premises.

It would probably be more beneficial to have a program that gives a tax incentive to older building owners to replace old windows with modern glazing, add insulation where applicable, and switch to higher efficiency HVAC systems.

 

[DCal430]

They work what they can to reduce it. Higher efficiency, huge amounts of money invested into renewable energy, building all the nuclear plants that the world got capacity to build. But when you are transforming 1.3 billion people into a western lifestyle in a short amount of time. It has to be this way.

You always have to look inside first. When an average american household uses 11500Kw/h and a german uses 3100kw/h. Who needs to reduce? (The answer is both.)

Western households should actually be down to around 1500Kw/h a year at this time. My own household is around 1000Kw/h a year.

Thats 300 million americans vs 1350 million chinese. Is that fair? And we point fingers?

Bogus graph, more accurate numbers for China are nearly twice as high. FYI the average summer temp here is 35c compared to 18c for Denmark. The climate of the U?S vastly different than Europe.