Question AirJet cooling for Laptop chips!

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soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Dave2D did a video on Ventiva's solution.

View attachment 113258
Much more energy efficiency than AirJets, but it has much worse static pressure.
This isn't MEMS now I've seen the video, it's ionic wind or electrohydrodynamic air movement.

It's not the first time I've seen something relating to this, and the last time I did they made a big splash and then nothing since.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,887
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ventiva "to be named" ionic wind tech in actual laptop
actual laptop makers partnering to implement it, so slightly ahead of frore. catalyst grille to deal with ozone issue. chassis modifications to compensate for lower static pressure.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Frore claimed that they would double device performance every 2 years.

Well.... 2 years gone by since they first announced AirJet, and no 2x perf product announced at CES.

If they can't even deliver on that promise promptly after the first 2 years, I have serious doubts about them doing it multiple times.
 
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yottabit

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Jun 5, 2008
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Frore claimed that they would double device performance every 2 years.

Well.... 2 years gone by since they first announced AirJet, and no 2x perf product announced at CES.

If they can't even deliver on that promise promptly after the first 2 years, I have serious doubts about them doing it multiple times.
it’s just a re-inventing the wheel type thing. Centripetal fans can be up to 90% efficient (in terms of shaft work input vs the mechanical work done moving the air) I’ve yet to ever see a true efficiency figure from these companies doing MEMS or Ionic but I expect it is dismal.

People think they don’t like fans but what they don’t like is crummy underengineered noisy fans with sleeve bearings.

Look at what Apple or Nvidia is able to do with their thermal designs, the Macbook Pro or Mac Studio or the Founders Edition RTX cards. Great thermal and acoustics. Just not every OEM has the budget to do CFD and acoustic analysis to optimize this stuff so we get some lackluster parts bin fan implementations.

I think Frore MEMS tech may find a niche in military or industrial applications, if they find a place at all. Maybe where slim form factor is needed and high bursts of power for short duty cycle.

Peltier effect / TECs are used there despite being inefficient. Those are “solid state” devices as well but are even more useful for being able to maintain specific temperature setpoints (even sub ambient) which may be required for optics and so on.

I suspect the trouble with solid state / MEMS I think is you are elastically deforming the material to generate the airflow, that causes a lot of waste energy and even more heat that needs to be dissipated.

I don’t see the appeal in general consumer products. I think for a wired VR headset it could be good as battery life wouldn't be a concern and the NVH having a fan millimeters from your face is very noticeable.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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People think they don’t like fans but what they don’t like is crummy underengineered noisy fans with sleeve bearings.
This.

People get confused when I say Noctua fans are noisy, so it must just be my personal sensitivity to specific frequencies their bearings give off, but daaayyyuuummm it's annoying.

I'm too lazy to switch out the one attached to my CPU heatsink, so the whole thing is running at low power all the time.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
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or the Founders Edition RTX cards. Great thermal and acoustics
That comes at a considerable cost in bulk and weight though.

A cost they have made zero effort to mitigate by using their industry moving power to change the standards in favor of a more physically stable layout for heavy x16 boards.

They are driving weight and bulk increases generation on generation and leaving customers with the potential price tag of x16 slot/mobo failure when it cracks, or when their extremely expensive gfx card PCBs begin to warp in tower configuration.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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This.

People get confused when I say Noctua fans are noisy, so it must just be my personal sensitivity to specific frequencies their bearings give off, but daaayyyuuummm it's annoying.

I'm too lazy to switch out the one attached to my CPU heatsink, so the whole thing is running at low power all the time.

WHAT?? i can't hear you over the screams my Sanyo Denki San Ace Server fans are making in my rack room.
 
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Tup3x

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2016
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That comes at a considerable cost in bulk and weight though.

A cost they have made zero effort to mitigate by using their industry moving power to change the standards in favor of a more physically stable layout for heavy x16 boards.

They are driving weight and bulk increases generation on generation and leaving customers with the potential price tag of x16 slot/mobo failure when it cracks, or when their extremely expensive gfx card PCBs begin to warp in tower configuration.
It's the opposite. Two slot card that can cool 600W chungus. It's a very sleek and compact card compared to others.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
7,082
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It's the opposite. Two slot card that can cool 600W chungus. It's a very sleek and compact card compared to others.
Partial opposite, as the compact design is enabled by much higher fin density. Overall the heatsink should be more efficient though, I would expect it to be lighter. The design also removes the backplate, which obviously helps with weight.

AIB designs though... let's wait and see
 

Tup3x

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2016
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Partial opposite, as the compact design is enabled by much higher fin density. Overall the heatsink should be more efficient though, I would expect it to be lighter. The design also removes the backplate, which obviously helps with weight.

AIB designs though... let's wait and see
Fins are thinner though. More surface are but not necessarily that much more weight.

I really wish that AIBs would start doing something creative that actually improves things. Who really wants these three+ slot monsters that just circulate air...
 
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gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,887
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dell engineer goes over implementation of ventiva cooler in a tech demo laptop.
standard cya drivel about how they wont use it unless it meets all the "dell standards" of performance and price. but he does at least seem enthusiastic about it.
 

DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
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Ventiva creates static electricity and potential to fry other electronics.

Yea you can coat the PCB, but what about other parts and devices that aren't coated? Coating isn't perfect either.

I like the Frore better. Like someone said make a thinner version and use it as a heatsink fin. And the purpose of the fins won't be actually moving air but just to break the boundary barrier(thus using minimal power), and you'd have a normal fan moving the air for more effective cooling.
Frore claimed that they would double device performance every 2 years.

Well.... 2 years gone by since they first announced AirJet, and no 2x perf product announced at CES.

If they can't even deliver on that promise promptly after the first 2 years, I have serious doubts about them doing it multiple times.
Maybe by "doubling" they meant by making it twice as large and use twice the power. Shady marketing for sure. What they need is double the performance per watt of the same device, so same power use at double the CFM or half the power use at same CFM.

1W for 5W is a disaster. This is the real reason no one is using it. Think they need to increase the perf/watt by 3-4x, so 0.25-0.3W at 5W dissipated or 1W power at 15-20W dissipated.

The only thing worse in efficiency are peltier coolers. Saying it's "solid state" is marketing. Like @aigomorla said, if this tech was so good, then you could use it for other applications such as for blowers, fans, actual heat pumps, and eventually airplanes!
In traditional laptops, the fans turn off and the SoC is passively cooled by the heatsinks and some little baseline airflow. That doesn't quite work with just a vapour chamber (zero heat dissipation) alone, so the AirJets need to be constantly on, no?
That makes terrible somehow worse. So peak perf/watt needs to go up 3-4x and idle perf/watt needs to go up what, 10x, 20x?
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
3,689
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Saying it's "solid state" is marketing
No, the active device is MEMS, which is a piece of semiconductor that deforms when voltage is applied - mechanical, but still solid.

As opposed to a fan which requires 1 object to rotate around another, hence not solid.
 

DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
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No, the active device is MEMS, which is a piece of semiconductor that deforms when voltage is applied - mechanical, but still solid.

As opposed to a fan which requires 1 object to rotate around another, hence not solid.
That's what I mean by marketing. Just like peltier refrigerators(cooler is more accurate) it doesn't amount to much. Not everything "solid state" is awesome.
 

soresu

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2014
3,689
3,026
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Not everything "solid state" is awesome
Point of fact there's reason to believe that solid state Li ion batteries could be even more dangerous than the conventional aqueous kind because they are more densely packed and still likely won't prevent Li metal dendrites on their own without a secondary prevention measure.

So fires caused by short circuiting Li ion SSB's could be even worse to put out.
 
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