Alabama: Better Save the Tray of Embryos Over the Baby

[cytg111]

Ok, that led down a rabbit hole of Buck v. Bell from 1927

And 1995ish wasnt *that* long ago.

The Right to Self-Determination: Freedom from Involuntary Sterilization - Disability Justice

One of the most notorious decisions of the Supreme Court was its 1927 decision in Buck v. Bell, which upheld the involuntary sterilization of a woman deemed “feeble-minded.”

disabilityjustice.org

I thought that if there was *any* area where this sort was a real thing today it would be this area, and I guess at least you abandoned it in favor of privacy in the 90ies.

 

[MtnMan]

I've asked you repeatedly why you consider one de-evolution when you don't consider all other interventions de-evolution. The inconsistency just makes it seem like you have some issues specifically with IVF that has nothing to do with the evolution of humans.

What is lacking in your desire to be right, is supporting input from valid sources from those much more knowledgeable than you or I in the field of genetics.

 

[APU_Fusion]

What is lacking in your desire to be right, is supporting input from valid sources from those much more knowledgeable than you or I in the field of genetics.

The irony 😂

 

[brycejones]

What is lacking in your desire to be right, is supporting input from valid sources from those much more knowledgeable than you or I in the field of genetics.

Please find a mirror

 

[Zorba]

What is lacking in your desire to be right, is supporting input from valid sources from those much more knowledgeable than you or I in the field of genetics.

Okay, obviously you have no interest in actually discussing your viewpoints. You just find IVF to be de-evolution, while you are okay with all other interventions that also allow "weaker" genes to procreate.

Considering the embros in IVF go through genetic screening, you could argue that it improves evolution by eliminating "weak" genes at the sources. Meanwhile as @cytg111 posted, C-sections have been shown to lower intelligence in kids.

 

[Brainonska511]

At least for some people undergoing IVF, it isn't even a "natural" matter of "can't conceive" - it could easily be a socioeconomic reason that they simply waited to long to try. The people could have been perfectly capable of conceiving at earlier ages, but now that we have removed ourselves from the whims of nature through the power of technology and economics, this discussion of genetic fitness in humans is a bit moot (and rather eugenics-y).

Also, looking at evolution through a lens of individuals is not really a great way to look at the process. Better to look at genetics across a population over time, because that's how you might identify things that improve fitness vs harm fitness.

Okay, obviously you have no interest in actually discussing your viewpoints. You just find IVF to be de-evolution, while you are okay with all other interventions that also allow "weaker" genes to procreate.

Considering the embros in IVF go through genetic screening, you could argue that it improves evolution by eliminating "weak" genes at the sources. Meanwhile as @cytg111 posted, C-sections have been shown to lower intelligence in kids.

 

[cytg111]

Okay, obviously you have no interest in actually discussing your viewpoints. You just find IVF to be de-evolution, while you are okay with all other interventions that also allow "weaker" genes to procreate.

Considering the embros in IVF go through genetic screening, you could argue that it improves evolution by eliminating "weak" genes at the sources. Meanwhile as @cytg111 posted, C-sections have been shown to lower intelligence in kids.

They do? That's amazing. Of course, while at one end of the spectrum you have a debate on undesirable traits and how to "eugenic" - at the other end we have designer babies. Thank god more moral men than me makes these decisions.

 

[Zorba]

They do? That's amazing. Of course, while at one end of the spectrum you have a debate on undesirable traits and how to "eugenic" - at the other end we have designer babies. Thank god more moral men than me makes these decisions.

I believe the genetic screenings are for know genetic defects, not for true designerism, but from what I've read they do go through screening before implantation.

 

[MtnMan]

The irony 😂

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forums.anandtech.com

 

[Trell]

I believe the genetic screenings are for know genetic defects, not for true designerism, but from what I've read they do go through screening before implantation.

My wife and I did IVF 3 years ago and where we went they did genetic screening of both of us for markers for genetic issues and then they also screened the embryos for markers. So in regards to specific genetic issues that can be determined in this way our kids will have a 0% chance of having those.

 

[MtnMan]

I believe the genetic screenings are for know genetic defects, not for true designerism, but from what I've read they do go through screening before implantation.

Very important word there… "known" genetic defects. What about the "UNknown" genetic defects, i.e., that causes the need for IVF in the first place?

Genetically testing human embryos: what you need to know about the debate

The debate about the pros and cons of genetically screening embryos is deeply entrenched. Perhaps we should let couples decide.

theconversation.com

 

[Brainonska511]

Very important word there… "known" genetic defects. What about the "UNknown" genetic defects, i.e., that causes the need for IVF in the first place?

Genetically testing human embryos: what you need to know about the debate

The debate about the pros and cons of genetically screening embryos is deeply entrenched. Perhaps we should let couples decide.

theconversation.com

How do you know it's unknown genetic defects causing people to turn to IVF?

 

[MtnMan]

How do you know it's unknown genetic defects causing people to turn to IVF?

How do you know they don't?

 

[Brainonska511]

How do you know they don't?

How do you know they do? Why are we worrying about these pretty insignificant unknown unknowns?

 

[Zorba]

Very important word there… "known" genetic defects. What about the "UNknown" genetic defects, i.e., that causes the need for IVF in the first place?

Genetically testing human embryos: what you need to know about the debate

The debate about the pros and cons of genetically screening embryos is deeply entrenched. Perhaps we should let couples decide.

theconversation.com

Again, why are you only concerned about these unknown genetic defects that causes a need for IVF vs the ones that caused the need for C-Sections? Do you understand before C-sections many babies and women died during childbirth due to not being able to be born naturally? Obviously this would've removed those genes from further procreation....

 

[MtnMan]

How do you know they do? Why are we worrying about these pretty insignificant unknown unknowns?

You realize I was referring to UNknown genetic defects. At one point, all genetic defects were unknown, had science not worried about those unknown unknowns, they will still be unknowns.

 

[MtnMan]

Again, why are you only concerned about these unknown genetic defects that causes a need for IVF vs the ones that caused the need for C-Sections? Do you understand before C-sections many babies and women died during childbirth due to not being able to be born naturally? Obviously this would've removed those genes from further procreation....

The desperation of your argument is you continue to interweave the inability to conceive naturally with c-sections. There are half a million unnecessary c-sections in the US every year... perhaps the doctor didn't want to miss his tee time.

C-section Rates Are Way Too High. We Need to Hold Doctors and Hospitals Accountable

Around half a million excess cesarean births occur every year in the U.S., putting mothers’ lives at risk

www.scientificamerican.com

And with "for"profit healthcare, a c-section is more profitable than a normal delivery.

Why the C-Section Rate Is So High

A doctor and an economist note that doctors are generally paid quite a bit more for a C-section than for a vaginal birth.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[brycejones]

Some people choose the strangest hills to die on

 

[nakedfrog]

All women who have miscarriages must be killed. All children who get sick cannot be provided treatment so we can weed out the weak. No vaccines should ever be given because it weakens the gene pool. In fact, we should destroy modern society, lobotomize all of humanity because the human mind has destroyed the natural selection process found in the wild. It is a horrendously sad debate to be had. Such arrogance.

I see someone else has read Vonnegut's Galapagos.

 

[Pens1566]

Some people choose the strangest hills to die on

But they should have died years ago if not for vaccinations.

 

[brycejones]

But they should have died years ago if not for vaccinations.

Such weakening of the gene pool

 

[eelw]

Some people choose the strangest hills to die on

But yet people are still arguing with him > _ <

 

[Jaskalas]

No we didn't. Life expectancy numbers have gone up almost exclusively due to reduction in childhood deaths. People that made it into adulthood had pretty similar life expectancy as today.
When 25% died by age 1, and 50% by 5, using gross averages really doesn't tell you much.

The 30-35 thing was a really fucked up number that was drilled into our heads.
Though I wonder if some of that didn't include all the young men dying in wars.

 

[APU_Fusion]

Very important word there… "known" genetic defects. What about the "UNknown" genetic defects, i.e., that causes the need for IVF in the first place?

Genetically testing human embryos: what you need to know about the debate

The debate about the pros and cons of genetically screening embryos is deeply entrenched. Perhaps we should let couples decide.

theconversation.com

Are you anti-vaccine? Yes or no.

 

[APU_Fusion]

I see someone else has read Vonnegut's Galapagos.

Actually, never heard of it before you mentioned it.