Alcoholism is not a disease.

[gigapet]

some people are genetically predisposed to certain conditions and addictions but in the end its about your will power. Your ability to consciously control what is acceptable to your reality and your behavior and what is not.

 

[BriGy86]

what exactly is the difference between a condition and a disease then?

i always thought that a condition is something you have or something that's wrong with a person that wasn't caused by a virus

i just hate how no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused
While it is true that some people are more easily addicted to alcohol, it is STILL a choice to keep drinking, or dry out.

No matter how heavily one is addicted, the CHOICE is still there.
.

Absolutely 100% wrong. Alcoholics have no choice in the matter of drink on any level, at any time, in any situation. Never did, never will. That goes for before picking up a drink, after picking it up, or before they ever took their first drink.

BULLSH1T

While they may lack the self control to control their drinking once they've started (the same as I am with my addictions) they DO have the ability to avoid alcohol completely.

This is why addicts MUST live in a black and white world when it comes to the objects of their addictions. They lack only the control to moderate their use. They DO NOT lack the control to avoid use altogether.

I know addiction very well. It is, and always will be, a CHOICE.

Millions of dry and clean addicts prove you 100% wrong.

Maybe it's simply the word "choice" that doesn't work for me. I do get your point.
Don't pick it up and it can't get away from you makes perfectly good sense.
Thing is, somewhere along the way in my alcoholic career, I completely lost the ability to exercise my "choice" on whether or not to pick it up.
I needed it and relied on it as much as oxygen. I picked it up to survive. It was that or a bullet in the melon.
Now I do have a choice. I can choose to get the ongoing help I need to control the problem. I can choose to do what I need to do to keep from ending up like I was.
I chose literally thousands of times not to drink and still did. I chose thousands of times not to continue drinking once I started, but still did.
I don't know what it's called when you choose to do something and it doesn't work out.
Lack of willpower, maybe. I liken willpower to trying not to shyt when I have diarrhea.
I don't want to shyt my pants if there's no toilet available. I can choose not to shyt my pants. If it's coming, it's coming.
I can't stop it.

You deny that it is a choice, then confirm that it is.

It is irrelevant that the hardest choice for you was to stop once you were drinking. You STILL made that choice.

You use others to support your willpower and choices, but in the end, no one can choose for you to stop, but you. No one else is doing it for you. It is ALL up to YOU.

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: BriGy86
what exactly is the difference between a condition and a disease then?

i always thought that a condition is something you have or something that's wrong with a person that wasn't caused by a virus

i just hate how no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions

Like not using a dictionary?

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: gigapet
some people are genetically predisposed to certain conditions and addictions but in the end its about your will power. Your ability to consciously control what is acceptable to your reality and your behavior and what is not.

Exactly.

 

[whistleclient]

Originally posted by: BriGy86
if anything its only a condition, a self indused condition

diseases are cause by viruses

so... cancer is caused by a virus.

um... yeah. you suck at the medicine.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: Jacob910

There is plenty of science that some of our behavior is from genetics, it does not matter that so many uneducated and ill informed people will make bold statements that alcoholism is not a disease.

But no amount of genetics will force a person to pick up that first drink.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Amused
Millions of dry alcoholics who CHOSE to stop and did so on their own prove you wrong.

Not to mention millions of clean drug and nicotine addicts such as myself.

I did not mean to imply it is impossible to stop drinking on you own (although it is much harder w/o medical intervention). Hell, I assume it's possible to beat some forms of cancer on your own.

I was try to explain that an alcoholic will experience extreme physical withdrawal after drinking while a non-alcoholic will not. How can you explain this?

 

[TitanDiddly]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused
While it is true that some people are more easily addicted to alcohol, it is STILL a choice to keep drinking, or dry out.

No matter how heavily one is addicted, the CHOICE is still there.
.

Absolutely 100% wrong. Alcoholics have no choice in the matter of drink on any level, at any time, in any situation. Never did, never will. That goes for before picking up a drink, after picking it up, or before they ever took their first drink.

BULLSH1T

While they may lack the self control to control their drinking once they've started (the same as I am with my addictions) they DO have the ability to avoid alcohol completely.

This is why addicts MUST live in a black and white world when it comes to the objects of their addictions. They lack only the control to moderate their use. They DO NOT lack the control to avoid use altogether.

I know addiction very well. It is, and always will be, a CHOICE.

Millions of dry and clean addicts prove you 100% wrong.

Maybe it's simply the word "choice" that doesn't work for me. I do get your point.
Don't pick it up and it can't get away from you makes perfectly good sense.
Thing is, somewhere along the way in my alcoholic career, I completely lost the ability to exercise my "choice" on whether or not to pick it up.
I needed it and relied on it as much as oxygen. I picked it up to survive. It was that or a bullet in the melon.
Now I do have a choice. I can choose to get the ongoing help I need to control the problem. I can choose to do what I need to do to keep from ending up like I was.
I chose literally thousands of times not to drink and still did. I chose thousands of times not to continue drinking once I started, but still did.
I don't know what it's called when you choose to do something and it doesn't work out.
Lack of willpower, maybe. I liken willpower to trying not to shyt when I have diarrhea.
I don't want to shyt my pants if there's no toilet available. I can choose not to shyt my pants. If it's coming, it's coming.
I can't stop it.

It,s a severe lack of self control and nothing more, a weakness.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Megatomic

But no amount of genetics will force a person to pick up that first drink.

It doesn't force them, but it does tempt them strongly. They still can't blame anyone else but themselves, though. Nobody else is responsible for controlling your actions.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: Amused
Millions of dry alcoholics who CHOSE to stop and did so on their own prove you wrong.

Not to mention millions of clean drug and nicotine addicts such as myself.

I did not mean to imply it is impossible to stop drinking on you own (although it is much harder w/o medical intervention). Hell, I assume it's possible to beat some forms of cancer on your own.

I was try to explain that an alcoholic will experience extreme physical withdrawal after drinking while a non-alcoholic will not. How can you explain this?

Alcoholism and cancer are in no way similar.

You cannot choose to stop having cancer. You can, however, choose to stop drinking.

No one can do that for you. You can go to all the rehabs and touchy feely meetings you want, but in the end, unless YOU choose to stop (or someone locks you up forever), you will not.

Folks, ending addiction can only be done by one person: The addict. No one else can do it for them and there is NO "cure."

Many drugs cause physical dependency. And still, in the end, no one can help you, but you. And the physical withdrawals are the LEAST of the problem. They pass in days.

The control must last a lifetime.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Megatomic

But no amount of genetics will force a person to pick up that first drink.

It doesn't force them, but it does tempt them strongly. They still can't blame anyone else but themselves, though. Nobody else is responsible for controlling your actions.

While I agree with you, I have to say this. I am sorely tempted sometimes to "sow my oats" so to speak. But I resist. And if I ever do stumble, it will be no one's fault but my own. Not even the skeezy tramp that seduced me.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Vic
So what you're saying is that alcoholism is exactly like any other chemical dependency. So... in learning to overcome this dependency (which only came into existence by the initial CHOICE to start drinking), one can empower oneself to quit forever (which is what AA teaches), or one can victimizes oneself into believing that there is no choice and thus no hope. Obviously, you want to believe the latter. Recovering alcoholics around the world hope you enjoy it in hell.

It's awfully nice of you to twist my words around. Obviously, an alcoholic can help themselves (or get help). I didn't mean to imply that one can never stop drinking. However, they will always be an alcoholic. That is what makes them different from a non-alcoholic and what makes alcoholism a disease.

It's also interesting to know that you speak for all recovering alcoholics.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: PhasmatisNox
Yes. That said, nhe vast majoity of psychology is complete BS. People beleived somatotyping and phrenology for ages while the self-proclaimed experts did.

Who said anything about psychology? Alcoholism is a disease and the vast majority of medical doctors will tell you the same.

So. People think there is a God, too. That proves nothing.

So now we are comparing modern medicine to religion? Wow.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

D2 dopamine receptor

 

[NL5]

Wow - what a bunch of ass talking.

While there is a "choice" to drink or not to drink - it is not that simple.

By that logic anyone with a mental condition should be able to will themselves well.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused
While it is true that some people are more easily addicted to alcohol, it is STILL a choice to keep drinking, or dry out.

No matter how heavily one is addicted, the CHOICE is still there.
.

Absolutely 100% wrong. Alcoholics have no choice in the matter of drink on any level, at any time, in any situation. Never did, never will. That goes for before picking up a drink, after picking it up, or before they ever took their first drink.

BULLSH1T

While they may lack the self control to control their drinking once they've started (the same as I am with my addictions) they DO have the ability to avoid alcohol completely.

This is why addicts MUST live in a black and white world when it comes to the objects of their addictions. They lack only the control to moderate their use. They DO NOT lack the control to avoid use altogether.

I know addiction very well. It is, and always will be, a CHOICE.

Millions of dry and clean addicts prove you 100% wrong.

Maybe it's simply the word "choice" that doesn't work for me. I do get your point.
Don't pick it up and it can't get away from you makes perfectly good sense.
Thing is, somewhere along the way in my alcoholic career, I completely lost the ability to exercise my "choice" on whether or not to pick it up.
I needed it and relied on it as much as oxygen. I picked it up to survive. It was that or a bullet in the melon.
Now I do have a choice. I can choose to get the ongoing help I need to control the problem. I can choose to do what I need to do to keep from ending up like I was.
I chose literally thousands of times not to drink and still did. I chose thousands of times not to continue drinking once I started, but still did.
I don't know what it's called when you choose to do something and it doesn't work out.
Lack of willpower, maybe. I liken willpower to trying not to shyt when I have diarrhea.
I don't want to shyt my pants if there's no toilet available. I can choose not to shyt my pants. If it's coming, it's coming.
I can't stop it.

You deny that it is a choice, then confirm that it is.

I sure do.
My alcoholism is an enigma. I don't understand it. I'm a very intelligent person, yet I can't "think" it away. I can't rationalize it or overpower it into submission.
It's a very simple thing to understand when you're an alcoholic. It's impossible for someone to understand who isn't.
Explain what "red" is to a blind man. In the end, he'll understand it, but he won't understand it like you do.
That's where you and I stand on the word "choice".

 

[TitanDiddly]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: Vic
So what you're saying is that alcoholism is exactly like any other chemical dependency. So... in learning to overcome this dependency (which only came into existence by the initial CHOICE to start drinking), one can empower oneself to quit forever (which is what AA teaches), or one can victimizes oneself into believing that there is no choice and thus no hope. Obviously, you want to believe the latter. Recovering alcoholics around the world hope you enjoy it in hell.

It's awfully nice of you to twist my words around. Obviously, an alcoholic can help themselves (or get help). I didn't mean to imply that one can never stop drinking. However, they will always be an alcoholic. That is what makes them different from a non-alcoholic and what makes alcoholism a disease.

It's also interesting to know that you speak for all recovering alcoholics.

It's not a disease just because it stays with you. Ignorance can be cured; stupidity is forever. yet stupidity is not a disease.

 

[purbeast0]

i'm waiting for the lawsuit that comes from an Alcoholic who is suing alcohol companies for making the alcohol for him to consume ... kind of like the fatties who sue the food companies because they are obese ...

 

[spidey07]

Yes it is. Already accepted fact wheter one wants to believe it or not.

fact. undisputed. published. researched. tested. proven. fact.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: PhasmatisNox

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused
While it is true that some people are more easily addicted to alcohol, it is STILL a choice to keep drinking, or dry out.

No matter how heavily one is addicted, the CHOICE is still there.
.

Absolutely 100% wrong. Alcoholics have no choice in the matter of drink on any level, at any time, in any situation. Never did, never will. That goes for before picking up a drink, after picking it up, or before they ever took their first drink.

BULLSH1T

While they may lack the self control to control their drinking once they've started (the same as I am with my addictions) they DO have the ability to avoid alcohol completely.

This is why addicts MUST live in a black and white world when it comes to the objects of their addictions. They lack only the control to moderate their use. They DO NOT lack the control to avoid use altogether.

I know addiction very well. It is, and always will be, a CHOICE.

Millions of dry and clean addicts prove you 100% wrong.

Maybe it's simply the word "choice" that doesn't work for me. I do get your point.
Don't pick it up and it can't get away from you makes perfectly good sense.
Thing is, somewhere along the way in my alcoholic career, I completely lost the ability to exercise my "choice" on whether or not to pick it up.
I needed it and relied on it as much as oxygen. I picked it up to survive. It was that or a bullet in the melon.
Now I do have a choice. I can choose to get the ongoing help I need to control the problem. I can choose to do what I need to do to keep from ending up like I was.
I chose literally thousands of times not to drink and still did. I chose thousands of times not to continue drinking once I started, but still did.
I don't know what it's called when you choose to do something and it doesn't work out.
Lack of willpower, maybe. I liken willpower to trying not to shyt when I have diarrhea.
I don't want to shyt my pants if there's no toilet available. I can choose not to shyt my pants. If it's coming, it's coming.
I can't stop it.

It,s a severe lack of self control and nothing more, a weakness.

You know that how? Can you tell me the lottery numbers for tonight Dear Lord?

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Yes it is. Already accepted fact wheter one wants to believe it or not.

fact. undisputed. published. researched. tested. proven. fact.

 

[TitanDiddly]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: Amused
While it is true that some people are more easily addicted to alcohol, it is STILL a choice to keep drinking, or dry out.

No matter how heavily one is addicted, the CHOICE is still there.
.

Absolutely 100% wrong. Alcoholics have no choice in the matter of drink on any level, at any time, in any situation. Never did, never will. That goes for before picking up a drink, after picking it up, or before they ever took their first drink.

BULLSH1T

While they may lack the self control to control their drinking once they've started (the same as I am with my addictions) they DO have the ability to avoid alcohol completely.

This is why addicts MUST live in a black and white world when it comes to the objects of their addictions. They lack only the control to moderate their use. They DO NOT lack the control to avoid use altogether.

I know addiction very well. It is, and always will be, a CHOICE.

Millions of dry and clean addicts prove you 100% wrong.

Maybe it's simply the word "choice" that doesn't work for me. I do get your point.
Don't pick it up and it can't get away from you makes perfectly good sense.
Thing is, somewhere along the way in my alcoholic career, I completely lost the ability to exercise my "choice" on whether or not to pick it up.
I needed it and relied on it as much as oxygen. I picked it up to survive. It was that or a bullet in the melon.
Now I do have a choice. I can choose to get the ongoing help I need to control the problem. I can choose to do what I need to do to keep from ending up like I was.
I chose literally thousands of times not to drink and still did. I chose thousands of times not to continue drinking once I started, but still did.
I don't know what it's called when you choose to do something and it doesn't work out.
Lack of willpower, maybe. I liken willpower to trying not to shyt when I have diarrhea.
I don't want to shyt my pants if there's no toilet available. I can choose not to shyt my pants. If it's coming, it's coming.
I can't stop it.

You deny that it is a choice, then confirm that it is.

I sure do.
My alcoholism is an enigma. I don't understand it. I'm a very intelligent person, yet I can't "think" it away. I can't rationalize it or overpower it into submission.
It's a very simple thing to understand when you're an alcoholic. It's impossible for someone to understand who isn't.
Explain what "red" is to a blind man. In the end, he'll understand it, but he won't understand it like you do.
That's where you and I stand on the word "choice".

It,s a weakness, and despite modern medicine's greatest efforts, rationalizing doesn't change that.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Yes it is. Already accepted fact wheter one wants to believe it or not.

fact. undisputed. published. researched. tested. proven. fact.

Ah, science by consensus.

And it is hardly undisputed.

 

[azazyel]

Wow, the holier than thou crowd is out early this morning.

IMHO it's a treatable disease but one that can never be cured. Hypothetically speaking I would think it would be the opposite of Diabetes. Instead of putting something into their body to help them out an Alcoholic has to resist putting something in their body. If either have a laps in personal responsibility they can have serious repercussions.

I am also surprised to see so many people here have never drank. I am glad that people here never got drunk just in case they might be an Alcoholic.