Kind of like your over eating.Originally posted by: PhasmatisNox
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: Amused
While it is true that some people are more easily addicted to alcohol, it is STILL a choice to keep drinking, or dry out.
No matter how heavily one is addicted, the CHOICE is still there.
.
Absolutely 100% wrong. Alcoholics have no choice in the matter of drink on any level, at any time, in any situation. Never did, never will. That goes for before picking up a drink, after picking it up, or before they ever took their first drink.
BULLSH1T
While they may lack the self control to control their drinking once they've started (the same as I am with my addictions) they DO have the ability to avoid alcohol completely.
This is why addicts MUST live in a black and white world when it comes to the objects of their addictions. They lack only the control to moderate their use. They DO NOT lack the control to avoid use altogether.
I know addiction very well. It is, and always will be, a CHOICE.
Millions of dry and clean addicts prove you 100% wrong.
Maybe it's simply the word "choice" that doesn't work for me. I do get your point.
Don't pick it up and it can't get away from you makes perfectly good sense.
Thing is, somewhere along the way in my alcoholic career, I completely lost the ability to exercise my "choice" on whether or not to pick it up.
I needed it and relied on it as much as oxygen. I picked it up to survive. It was that or a bullet in the melon.
Now I do have a choice. I can choose to get the ongoing help I need to control the problem. I can choose to do what I need to do to keep from ending up like I was.
I chose literally thousands of times not to drink and still did. I chose thousands of times not to continue drinking once I started, but still did.
I don't know what it's called when you choose to do something and it doesn't work out.
Lack of willpower, maybe. I liken willpower to trying not to shyt when I have diarrhea.
I don't want to shyt my pants if there's no toilet available. I can choose not to shyt my pants. If it's coming, it's coming.
I can't stop it.
It,s a severe lack of self control and nothing more, a weakness.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: Amused
You mistake one night with constant, regular use.
Normal people do not constantly, and regularly use alcohol as an alcoholic will. If they were forced to, and suddenly stopped, they would feel the physical symptoms, even though they are not suffering from the compulsion the alcoholic suffers from.
I'd like to see your data to back this up.
It doesn't matter anyway. A normal person has the ability to stop drinking after one or two drinks. An alcoholic does not. Perhaps it is possible to trigger alcohol withdrawal in a healthy person by forcing them to drink? However, alcoholism is defined by more than one symptom. An alcoholic displays all of these while a non-alcoholic does not.
Also, you would have a good chance at killing a non-alcoholic by forcing them to drink the sufficient quantities of alcohol necessary in order to induce withdrawal. Alcoholics tend to have a high tolerance compared to a non-alcoholic.
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Everything makes sense now. Glad to hear you are sober.
SO you don't consider yourself an addict anymore?
quote:
Originally posted by: Amused
quote:
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Everything makes sense now. Glad to hear you are sober.
SO you don't consider yourself an addict anymore?
Nope. I consider myself a person genetically predisposed to become addicted. So I simply avoid any and all contact with the objects of my addictions.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Everything makes sense now. Glad to hear you are sober.
SO you don't consider yourself an addict anymore?
Nope. I consider myself a person genetically predisposed to become addicted. So I simply avoid any and all contact with the objects of my addictions.
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Everything makes sense now. Glad to hear you are sober.
SO you don't consider yourself an addict anymore?
Nope. I consider myself a person genetically predisposed to become addicted. So I simply avoid any and all contact with the objects of my addictions.
Maybe I am confused (probably - lol)
Haven't you been arguing that it is a CHOICE - now you say "genetically predisposed"?
I agree 100% that there is a certain amount of choice involved here - we all have shortcomings in our personalities that we have to try and overcome. However, there is a physiologic difference between an addict and a non-addicts brain.
Like I said earlier, a schizophrenic can control themselves by willpower to a degree, but the can't just choose not to be ill - same with an addict.
Originally posted by: Amused
Alcohol withdrawal syndrome is defined as "a cluster of symptoms observed in persons who stop drinking alcohol following continuous and heavy consumption."
It is the rate and amount of consumption that triggers the physical symptoms. Since most non-alcoholics will take a break LONG before these appear, it is closely associated with alcoholics.
Tolerance is built up. Anyone (well, most anyone) can build up tolerance to alcohol by simply practicing (drinking regularly).
I could not drink nearly as much now, as I did when I was in the army. I'd throw up and pass out just 1/3 into what I would drink on a night out back then.
Alcoholism is a compulsion. It is not DTs. It is not tolerance. It is a compulsion. All those other things are just side effects.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: Amused
Alcohol withdrawal syndrome is defined as "a cluster of symptoms observed in persons who stop drinking alcohol following continuous and heavy consumption."
It is the rate and amount of consumption that triggers the physical symptoms. Since most non-alcoholics will take a break LONG before these appear, it is closely associated with alcoholics.
Tolerance is built up. Anyone (well, most anyone) can build up tolerance to alcohol by simply practicing (drinking regularly).
I could not drink nearly as much now, as I did when I was in the army. I'd throw up and pass out just 1/3 into what I would drink on a night out back then.
Alcoholism is a compulsion. It is not DTs. It is not tolerance. It is a compulsion. All those other things are just side effects.
Believe what you want. But, according to everything I have read, you are wrong. Alcoholism is more than a compulsion. Compulsion is just one of the symptoms and does not wholly define alcoholism.
1
2
3
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: DBL
I don't think our opinions are much different. I am simply saying that after drinking, an Alcoholic will experience withdrawal while a non-alcoholic will not. That is what makes alcoholism (and other forms of drug addiction) a disease.
Wait right there.
ANYONE who drinks regularly enough, and in sufficient quantities will suffer the physical withdrawals. The reason it is associated with alcoholism is because only alcoholics will drink that much, and that regularly.
Physical withdrawals have very little to do with addiction. They can affect anyone who uses enough. It is the urges and inability to moderate that defines the addict, not the physical part.
Actually, part of being an "alcoholic" is they rarely suffer from withdrwal like normal people. I had a friend that was an extreme alcoholic - if they were still hungover after 9pm they would be pissed. If I drank the same amount, I would be hungover for DAYS.
A hangover is not withdrawals.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: DBL
I don't think our opinions are much different. I am simply saying that after drinking, an Alcoholic will experience withdrawal while a non-alcoholic will not. That is what makes alcoholism (and other forms of drug addiction) a disease.
Wait right there.
ANYONE who drinks regularly enough, and in sufficient quantities will suffer the physical withdrawals. The reason it is associated with alcoholism is because only alcoholics will drink that much, and that regularly.
Physical withdrawals have very little to do with addiction. They can affect anyone who uses enough. It is the urges and inability to moderate that defines the addict, not the physical part.
Actually, part of being an "alcoholic" is they rarely suffer from withdrwal like normal people. I had a friend that was an extreme alcoholic - if they were still hungover after 9pm they would be pissed. If I drank the same amount, I would be hungover for DAYS.
A hangover is not withdrawals.
yes it is. A hangover is a combination of withdrawl symptoms and dehydration.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Everything makes sense now. Glad to hear you are sober.
SO you don't consider yourself an addict anymore?
Nope. I consider myself a person genetically predisposed to become addicted. So I simply avoid any and all contact with the objects of my addictions.
Maybe I am confused (probably - lol)
Haven't you been arguing that it is a CHOICE - now you say "genetically predisposed"?
I agree 100% that there is a certain amount of choice involved here - we all have shortcomings in our personalities that we have to try and overcome. However, there is a physiologic difference between an addict and a non-addicts brain.
Like I said earlier, a schizophrenic can control themselves by willpower to a degree, but the can't just choose not to be ill - same with an addict.
It is a choice whether you use or not.
Some people, though, are unable to MODERATE their use of such substances. Therefore they MUST address the issue in an "all or none" fashion.
But it is still a choice. And only a choice they can make. No one, and no thing can make that choice for them.
In the end, it all boils down to choice.
Even though many people like to label it a disease, they will be the FIRST to tell you no one can help an addict who does not want to help themselves.
Quite a contradiction, no?
Schizophrenics do not have the ability to recognize they have a problem. These are two entirely different things.
My oldest brother suffers from Schizophrenia. He must be held against his will, and medicated. Only after the medication kicks in does he realize something was wrong.
Originally posted by: Amused
Again, the dependence and compulsion are the root. Everything else is a side effect and can be experienced by non-alcoholics.
Ask any drinker who is not addicted about tolerance. It is quite easy to build.
And physical withdrawals are a symptom of heavy, constant use, not any disease.
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Everything makes sense now. Glad to hear you are sober.
SO you don't consider yourself an addict anymore?
Nope. I consider myself a person genetically predisposed to become addicted. So I simply avoid any and all contact with the objects of my addictions.
Maybe I am confused (probably - lol)
Haven't you been arguing that it is a CHOICE - now you say "genetically predisposed"?
I agree 100% that there is a certain amount of choice involved here - we all have shortcomings in our personalities that we have to try and overcome. However, there is a physiologic difference between an addict and a non-addicts brain.
Like I said earlier, a schizophrenic can control themselves by willpower to a degree, but the can't just choose not to be ill - same with an addict.
It is a choice whether you use or not.
Some people, though, are unable to MODERATE their use of such substances. Therefore they MUST address the issue in an "all or none" fashion.
But it is still a choice. And only a choice they can make. No one, and no thing can make that choice for them.
In the end, it all boils down to choice.
Even though many people like to label it a disease, they will be the FIRST to tell you no one can help an addict who does not want to help themselves.
Quite a contradiction, no?
Schizophrenics do not have the ability to recognize they have a problem. These are two entirely different things.
My oldest brother suffers from Schizophrenia. He must be held against his will, and medicated. Only after the medication kicks in does he realize something was wrong.
Shcizophrenia IS the same thing - albeit a more extreme form.
Unfortunetly, there is no pill to control alcholism (yet) like there is for schizophrenia. That is why an addict MUST be willing to help themselves first.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: Amused
Again, the dependence and compulsion are the root. Everything else is a side effect and can be experienced by non-alcoholics.
Ask any drinker who is not addicted about tolerance. It is quite easy to build.
And physical withdrawals are a symptom of heavy, constant use, not any disease.
Nope. Alcoholism is the root.
These are symptoms...
[*]Craving--A strong need, or compulsion, to drink.
[*]Impaired control--The inability to limit one's drinking on any given occasion.
[*]Physical dependence--Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety, when alcohol use is stopped after a period of heavy drinking.
[*]Tolerance--The need for increasing amounts of alcohol in order to feel its effects.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: hammer01
A hangover is not withdrawls but DT's or Delerium Tremens are. As an alcoholic and drug addict that was an addict by the age of 14 I would say that the vast majority of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I "enjoyed" my first drug and alcohol induced experience at the age of 12 and just kept going from there. If you are saying that I had a choice not to drink that first drink you are right but I would not have listened then probably even had I known what the next 10 years or so of my life would become. It is easy to say that what I did was my choice but until you have walked a mile in my moccasins don't tell me your pet theories on addiction.
I walked many miles in your shoes, though my problem was not alcohol.
As a former addict, I can say without a doubt that addiction, ANY addiction is a choice.
Everything makes sense now. Glad to hear you are sober.
SO you don't consider yourself an addict anymore?
Nope. I consider myself a person genetically predisposed to become addicted. So I simply avoid any and all contact with the objects of my addictions.
Maybe I am confused (probably - lol)
Haven't you been arguing that it is a CHOICE - now you say "genetically predisposed"?
I agree 100% that there is a certain amount of choice involved here - we all have shortcomings in our personalities that we have to try and overcome. However, there is a physiologic difference between an addict and a non-addicts brain.
Like I said earlier, a schizophrenic can control themselves by willpower to a degree, but the can't just choose not to be ill - same with an addict.
It is a choice whether you use or not.
Some people, though, are unable to MODERATE their use of such substances. Therefore they MUST address the issue in an "all or none" fashion.
But it is still a choice. And only a choice they can make. No one, and no thing can make that choice for them.
In the end, it all boils down to choice.
Even though many people like to label it a disease, they will be the FIRST to tell you no one can help an addict who does not want to help themselves.
Quite a contradiction, no?
Schizophrenics do not have the ability to recognize they have a problem. These are two entirely different things.
My oldest brother suffers from Schizophrenia. He must be held against his will, and medicated. Only after the medication kicks in does he realize something was wrong.
Shcizophrenia IS the same thing - albeit a more extreme form.
Unfortunetly, there is no pill to control alcholism (yet) like there is for schizophrenia. That is why an addict MUST be willing to help themselves first.
Please. They are far from the same thing. Shcizophrenia exists in and of itself. Alcoholism is an addiction to an outside substance.
Put two people in an environment without alcohol, one an alcoholic, and the other not, and you will not be able to tell them apart.
Originally posted by: NL5
They are both "faulty wiring" (for lack of a better term) in the brain - that is your "genetic pre-disposition" - You are wired differntly from most people - said so yourself.
I am not saying that they are both equal - but they are two shades of the same thing.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
They are both "faulty wiring" (for lack of a better term) in the brain - that is your "genetic pre-disposition" - You are wired differntly from most people - said so yourself.
I am not saying that they are both equal - but they are two shades of the same thing.
Actually, one is a chemical imbalance that is correctable/treatable by drugs. The other is not.
Originally posted by: Amused
PLEASE. Use your head. Alcoholism is a word. A word used to describe something. It can not be it's own root.
Without craving and loss of ability to moderate, alcoholism does not exist.
BUT, all the other symptoms CAN occur in non-alcoholics who do not crave, therefore are not addicted to the drug.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: NL5
They are both "faulty wiring" (for lack of a better term) in the brain - that is your "genetic pre-disposition" - You are wired differntly from most people - said so yourself.
I am not saying that they are both equal - but they are two shades of the same thing.
Actually, one is a chemical imbalance that is correctable/treatable by drugs. The other is not.
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: BriGy86
if anything its only a condition, a self indused condition
diseases are cause by viruses
Self induced? Do you know anything about alcoholism? Alcoholism has been shown to be highly hereditary. People become addicted to alcohol just like any other drug, mentally and physically addicted. It is not all self induced. People that are actual alcoholics started out as innocently as you, but their body, due to heredity, demanded more of it. Its like heroin to them.
Self induced is not the right choice of words.