Question Alder Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

With the release of Alder Lake less than a week away and the "Lakes" thread having turned into a nightmare to navigate I thought it might be a good time to start a discussion thread solely for Alder Lake.

 

[nicalandia]

I'm quite curious how Raptor Lake's Gracemont will be placed. There's a large void area between Ring Agent and GPU due to Gracemont cluster's width. I think that area inefficiency should be fixed somehow to make 16 GM cores(4 clusters) efficient. Intel managed to put something there at least for an ADL-P though.

There will be no mayor changes in Die area allocation on Raptor Lake, they will just make room by making the die larger

 

[jpiniero]

There will be no mayor changes in Die area allocation on Raptor Lake, they will just make room by making the die larger

There has been talk about changing the L2 cache speed/size. So they might re-arrange stuff a litle bit beyond just tacking on another 2 clusters. But not too much.

 

[dullard]

There has been talk about changing the L2 cache speed/size. So they might re-arrange stuff a litle bit beyond just tacking on another 2 clusters. But not too much.

Here is a proposed layout with 2 more clusters and added cache. Still just rumors though.

Move Over 3D V-Cache, Intel Raptor Lake Could Pack A Huge Cache Upgrade For Gaming

A new leak reinforces the idea that Intel's 13th-gen CPUs will come with much fatter caches than Alder Lake.

hothardware.com

 

[nicalandia]

There has been talk about changing the L2 cache speed/size. So they might re-arrange stuff a litle bit beyond just tacking on another 2 clusters. But not too much.

True

Raptor Lake with 8 Performance Raptor Cove Cores and 16 e Grace Mont Cores

 

[dullard]

it's going to be a Humongous die

Raptor Lake with 8 Performance Raptor Cove Cores and 16 e Grace Mont Cores
View attachment 56919

?

That modified image has 32 Gracemont cores.

 

[nicalandia]

?

That modified image has 32 Gracemont cores.

That is true, let me fix that

Fixed

 

[Mopetar]

That is true, let me fix that

Fixed

I love that you modified the image to be correct instead of just editing the text in the post.

 

[coercitiv]

That is true, let me fix that

Very sloppy job: where the gaming cache at?!

You do realize this will end up on wccftech as some kind of leak, so you have a responsibility to feed the hype machine with adequate bigger numbers.

 

[nicalandia]

Very sloppy job: where the gaming cache at?!

You do realize this will end up on wccftech as some kind of leak, so you have a responsibility to feed the hype machine with adequate bigger numbers.

I am fixing that as we speak

 

[dullard]

That is true, let me fix that

Fixed

Thanks and fast work.

This probably should be moved to the Intel Current and Future thread. But the interesting thing to me is that after all that added die space, the rumors are only for the i9 chips to get the 16 E cores. Rumors (from here https://wccftech.com/intel-13th-gen...r-alder-lake-for-enhanced-gaming-performance/ ):

• Pentium, i3: nada.
• i5, i7: 4 more E cores.
• i9: 8 more E cores.

 

[Exist50]

Thanks and fast work.

This probably should be moved to the Intel Current and Future thread. But the interesting thing to me is that after all that added die space, the rumors are only for the i9 chips to get the 16 E cores. Rumors (from here https://wccftech.com/intel-13th-gen...r-alder-lake-for-enhanced-gaming-performance/ ):

• Pentium, i3: nada.
• i5, i7: 4 more E cores.
• i9: 8 more E cores.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a weird mix of Raptor Lake and Alder Lake coexisting for a time. Like, for i3 and below, they're not going to want to grow the die from the current 6 cores/equivalent. Could maybe see the i5s getting a bump for competitive reasons though.

 

[dullard]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a weird mix of Raptor Lake and Alder Lake coexisting for a time. Like, for i3 and below, they're not going to want to grow the die from the current 6 cores/equivalent. Could maybe see the i5s getting a bump for competitive reasons though.

It does end up with a weird mix. If the rumors are true, the Pentium and i3 get more cache and faster memory. But those chips don't need any of that. The Raptor Lake i5 S-series would sit in the terrible situation of Windows putting everything not on the foreground window on just 4 E cores, so those should be avoided. But the i5 K-series and above should be greatly improved especially if the rumored better efficiency (due to split voltages) is correct.

 

[jpiniero]

It does end up with a weird mix. If the rumors are true, the Pentium and i3 get more cache and faster memory. But those chips don't need any of that. The Raptor Lake i5 S-series would sit in the terrible situation of Windows putting everything on just 4 E cores, so those should be avoided. But the i5 K-series and above should be greatly improved especially if the rumored better efficiency (due to split voltages) is correct.

The DLVR is most likely mobile only.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a weird mix of Raptor Lake and Alder Lake coexisting for a time. Like, for i3 and below, they're not going to want to grow the die from the current 6 cores/equivalent. Could maybe see the i5s getting a bump for competitive reasons though.

Intel could do that, use the existing 6+0 Alder Lake die for i3 and below, and only i5 and above get the L2 cache improvements.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a weird mix of Raptor Lake and Alder Lake coexisting for a time. Like, for i3 and below, they're not going to want to grow the die from the current 6 cores/equivalent.

Agree. AMD certainly isn't giving them any reason to upgrade the low end every generation, since they have basically abandoned it. It almost feels like they don't consider the low end worth their time anymore. Kinda adopting the attitude of Ferrari for x86 CPUs.

 

[dullard]

The DLVR is most likely mobile only.

That certainly could be true.

Intel could do that, use the existing 6+0 Alder Lake die for i3 and below, and only i5 and above get the L2 cache improvements.

I'll nitpick a bit here. The i5 K-series is on the 8+8 die already. So it is possible for there to be an Alder Lake refresh for i5 S-series and below and Raptor Lake for i5 K-Series and above. It would be quite a shame though. As that means basically nothing but maybe a small speed boost for 2 years in the i5 S-Series and below (assuming Meteor Lake is mobile only).

 

[repoman27]

Alder Lake P Die anotation(i7 H Laptop)

View attachment 56854



Alder Lake S Die Anotation(Desktop i7)
View attachment 56856

I was waiting for Intel to post 12th Gen mobile platform datasheets, but it appears that they're just tacking that information onto the desktop datasheets. Revision 004 of Volume 1 includes various stuff pertaining to the HX, H, P, U (15W), and U (9W) platforms. It looks like S BGA will be marketed as the HX Series.

The datasheet confirms that the H Series only supports 1x PCIe Gen4 x8 (no further bifurcation) and 2x PCIe Gen4 x4 (which cannot be combined). The P Series processors that only support 8 lanes are likely 2x PCIe Gen4 x4 only. This is despite those die shots pretty clearly showing the ADL 6+8+2 die as having both Gen5 1x8 and Gen4 2x4 interfaces. I wonder why Intel gimped the PCIe support for Alder Lake mobile? Was it power, parametric yields, substrate issues?

edit: I'll go ahead and answer my own question. According to Intel, "PCIe Gen 5.0 is not supported on H Processor Lines due to Gen 5.0 device nonavailability at TTM."

That datasheet also refers to the 600 Series on-package chipset (Alder Lake PCH-P) datasheets, which haven't been publicly linked to elsewhere AFAIK:

Intel® 600 Series Chipset Family On-Package Platform Controller Hub (PCH) Datasheet, Volume 1 of 2
Intel® 600 Series Chipset Family On-Package Platform Controller Hub (PCH) Datasheet, Volume 2 of 2

 

[Markfw]

Agree. AMD certainly isn't giving them any reason to upgrade the low end every generation, since they have basically abandoned it. It almost feels like they don't consider the low end worth their time anymore. Kinda adopting the attitude of Ferrari for x86 CPUs.

More like they only want to make Jumbo jets(EPYC) and as many expensive cars (Ryzen) as they can fit in them !

 

[nicalandia]

More like they only want to make Jumbo jets(EPYC) and as many expensive cars (Ryzen) as they can fit in them !

I can't blame them, TSMC can't do not have unlimited capacity so AMD is prioritizing the most lucrative market. We are in the middle of a full fledged pandemic are in short supply of fab capacity, Crypto Currency Jerks are hoarding all of they can get. I say budget gamers need to sit back and wait until things get better(which I just can't see when that might be)

 

[nicalandia]

Double Post

 

[LightningZ71]

Agree. AMD certainly isn't giving them any reason to upgrade the low end every generation, since they have basically abandoned it. It almost feels like they don't consider the low end worth their time anymore. Kinda adopting the attitude of Ferrari for x86 CPUs.

I wish them good luck getting volume on the AM5 platform then. Part of what built the AM4 ecosystem was the volume they made on the low end parts. They will struggle to get enough volume to get the prices down on their AM5 boards.

 

[Thunder 57]

I wish them good luck getting volume on the AM5 platform then. Part of what built the AM4 ecosystem was the volume they made on the low end parts. They will struggle to get enough volume to get the prices down on their AM5 boards.

AMD had to reestablish themselves as a credible competitor. Hell, AMD wanted AM4 to be LGA but the mobo players said no.

 

[Carfax83]

We are in the middle of a full fledged pandemic are in short supply of fab capacity, Crypto Currency Jerks are hoarding all of they can get. I say budget gamers need to sit back and wait until things get better(which I just can't see when that might be)

It's getting a bit better day by day. Yesterday, I did a dry run on Newegg ordering some parts to see what the total would be. An Asus motherboard for $700, 32GB DDR5 6000 CL36 RAM for $470, a Samsung 980 pro for $170. A 12900K from my local Microcenter for $500, and a RTX 3090 founders edition from a scalper on Amazon for $2400.

All in all, a little over $4500 when you include taxes. This same setup would have been at or very near the $5000 mark when Alder Lake launched last year. I have the money for it as I haven't upgraded in a long time, but I may as well wait for Raptor Lake and the RTX 4000 series at this point.

 

[Heartbreaker]

HWUB also really like Alder Lake laptops:

 

[igor_kavinski]

So amazing to see M1 Pro's arse getting whooped in almost everything. The only places where it wins is Export PDF to PNG and Premiere (good showing at only 60W). M1 Pro is still the battery king but I would rather have higher performance.

 

[Aikouka]

More like they only want to make Jumbo jets(EPYC) and as many expensive cars (Ryzen) as they can fit in them !

I wonder if that's because AMD sees the APUs as their target for the low-end. Honestly, I don't think that's a bad approach if (a) they'd update their APUs faster, and (b) not saddle them with older technology so often. I'd love if either Intel or AMD would give a CPU with a built-in GPU that could just do 1080p medium in your average AAA game. It's why I'm a bit anxious to see how the 6000 series APUs from AMD perform!