Question Alder Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

With the release of Alder Lake less than a week away and the "Lakes" thread having turned into a nightmare to navigate I thought it might be a good time to start a discussion thread solely for Alder Lake.

 

[Zucker2k]

I don't need to, he said that FX series (Bulldozer) was released in 2011, when X6 was on the market 18 months earlier.

But Thuban is not Bulldozer?

 

[Geegeeoh]

But Thuban is not Bulldozer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenom_II#Thuban

 

[yacoub]

Gotta say regardless of reviews I was expecting Alder Lake to be completely sold out. DIY demand must be really lousy given GPU prices.

12900K is OOS NewEgg. The best boards are now as well. Corsair and G.Skill DDR5 is completely unavailable. Feels about right.

 

[epsilon84]

Not if you take into account half the bottleneck testing he did. We're all not blind to the 'ways' of that guy. Anandtech did a 384p game testing in the Zen 3 review, iirc, where's that now? A cpu gaming test is not the same as a gpu gaming test.

Indeed, those averages are somewhat misleading as half the games are GPU limited.

For a truly 'CPU bound' gaming test, at 720P ADL is approx 10% faster than Zen 3 according to TPU: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i7-12700k-alder-lake-12th-gen/15.html

Now, of course, we all live in the real world and except in edge cases, at realistic resolutions and settings there won't be nearly as much difference between ADL and Zen 3, or even older gen Intel chips for that matter.

 

[JoeRambo]

Can I hear, "Thank you, Intel"?

R7 5800x = $299.99 is amazing.
R5 5600x = $279.99

Lovely, competition is great for everyone

 

[rainy]

But Thuban is not Bulldozer?

Sorry but what is your point - AMD had 6 cores/threads CPUs before release of FX series.

 

[Asterox]

In the HUB test suite about +2/3% because they are GPU limited on the averages.

Maybe the 1% lows will improve a lot though and that is where you can more easily see the impact of more CPU performance.

We must keep in mind this detail, it is very important not just in gaming no doubt.

Rocket Lake i9 11900K, 16mb L3 Cache

Alder Lake i7, 25mb L3 cache

Alder Lake i9 30mb L3 cache

Rocket lake vs Alder Lake i9, L3 Cache the difference is quite large.

 

[blckgrffn]

https://www.computerbase.de/2021-11/intel-core-i9-12900k-i7-12700k-i5-12600k-test/2/

12th gen was tested with the old 10th-gen, 11th gen scheme here (PL1 = 125w, PL2 = 150/190/241w, 56 sec), and even for a long load in Blender the 12900k only loses 12% perf, the 12700k loses 6% perf, and the 12600k loses no perf at all.

It'd be interesting to do more throuogh testing of the 12th gens with more stringent ~125w PL2s. For all intents and purposes the 12600k is already there by default and I suspect performance loss is not nearly as big on the i7s/i9s as implied by the power draw.

I have no issues trimming PL1/PL2 levels (and the equivalents on AMD) to be within the means of the board and cooler. Especially as the impact tends to be so niche/trivial for trivial bursty loads. Confirmation of this is welcome, thank you for the link.

It is kind of nuts that the CPUs essentially come pre-overclocked and aftermarket boards come with beast mode settings enabled.

A few years ago it feels like we would have been exploring these power usage scenarios as a community as experiments far afield of what 99% of even PC builders would pursue. Because, you know, the gains of clock speed at the edge of sanity have ever decreasing returns.

It is really this (IMO) insane fixation on Cinebench as a "relevant" benchmark?

Anyway.

Most of what I dislike about the "high" temps is using many coolers this will ramp fan speeds and noise. Even the ramping is annoying. Playing the fan tuning game isn't normally the game I want to be playing

When Intel takes away our ability to tune power usage I'll get grumpy for sure, now it's just a few more steps to undo the stock overclocks

 

[Heartbreaker]

I7 12700KF review from Hardware Unboxed:

12700K, crushes the 5800X, and the power usage is tamed as well.

While everyone is beating up on the 12900K for it's power usage, and I agree if I wanted 16 core performance to run 24/7, I would stick with a 5950x, for the power savings.

But the the 12700K, and 12600K (and likely all the lower end of the lineup) are looking fantastic.

12700K absolutely crushes the 5800X, while trading blows with 5900X.
12600K absolutely crushes the 5600X, while trading blows with 5800X.

And the power usage drops dramatically in these parts, making it essentially a non issue.

 

[Furious_Styles]

12700K, crushes the 5800X, and the power usage is tamed as well.

While everyone is beating up on the 12900K for it's power usage, and I agree if I wanted 16 core performance to run 24/7, I would stick with a 5950x, for the power savings.

But the the 12700K, and 12600K (and likely all the lower end of the lineup) are looking fantastic.

12700K absolutely crushes the 5800X, while trading blows with 5900X.
12600K absolutely crushes the 5600X, while trading blows with 5800X.

And the power usage drops dramatically in these parts, making it essentially a non issue.

Those two really do look like the best value out of the ADL line-up.

 

[coercitiv]

Also, you mention facts but I have to ask did you examine your second paragraph?

I gave you measured data for Skylake 4c/8t @ 2.9Ghz doing 24W package power in Prime95, which is as close to unrealistic workload as we get.

Here's i7 8700 with HT disabled, running at 3.2Ghz in CB23.

Spoiler: Skylake 6c6t @ 3.2Ghz

The cores use around 37W. Do you need help extrapolating from 6 to 8 cores?

 

[Iron Woode]

intel was the one that made a real pure 64 bit CPU and nobody wanted to make the effort to switch to it.
Intel also released a 6core CPU in 2010 to the desktop market. AMD FX line launched in 2011

Product Specifications

quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

um, itaniun was a server cpu and used a server motherboard. The only windows OS for it was a custom made win XP 64-bit version that had no relation to win XP x64.

Gulftown was an HEDT setup using the X58 platform. Not exactly an inexpensive setup. AMD's Thuban was also launched in 2010 but on the standard AM3 platform.

 

[coercitiv]

That analogy only works if we pretend caches are free and aren't part of CPU design.

Is Gracemont using the same amount of L3 per core as Golden Cove? AFAIK it gets a slice per core complex. I was also playing game and not asking how big that 8+32 chip would be in terms of area.

 

[DisEnchantment]

For the folks who dont want to be part of the debate...

What is the reason of the expensive motherboard compared to a last gen board? In which order?

1. PCIe5
2. DDR5
3. Increased power requirements?
4. Increased socket pin out

Update:
Just BOM cost, no inflation related or scalping stuffs

 

[coercitiv]

What is the reason of the expensive motherboard? In which order?

1. PCIe5
2. DDR5
3. Increased power requirements?
4. Increased socket pin out

5. Global supply issues making everything more expensive.

There's massive price increases globally on everything, from energy to packaging and transportation. Couple that with PCIe5 / DDR5 / power and you have the perfect storm.

 

[IEC]

For the folks who dont want to be part of the debate...

What is the reason of the expensive motherboard? In which order?

1. PCIe5
2. DDR5
3. Increased power requirements?
4. Increased socket pin out

All of the above, plus initial limited launch stock leading to retailers selling with a early adopter tax tacked on to the price.

 

[DisEnchantment]

There's massive price increases globally on everything, from energy to packaging and transportation. Couple that with PCIe5 / DDR5 / power and you have the perfect storm.

Updated the question above, while what you say is true, it also applies to older gen boards.
I am more interested in the changes in the BOM comparing to a last gen board which can cause the rise, excluding any early markup etc.
e.g. if significant design changes related to DDR traces for example? retimers, additional phases ...
Not sure if someone already did such breakdown

 

[mikk]

Did someone notice that the ADL-S iGPU supports HDMI 2.1? Tigerlake/RKL-S was limited to HDMI 2.0b.

 

[Hulk]

I gave you measured data for Skylake 4c/8t @ 2.9Ghz doing 24W package power in Prime95, which is as close to unrealistic workload as we get.

Here's i7 8700 with HT disabled, running at 3.2Ghz in CB23.

Spoiler: Skylake 6c6t @ 3.2Ghz

View attachment 52406

The cores use around 37W. Do you need help extrapolating from 6 to 8 cores?

Let me try, (8/6)*37=45.3W (Prof. Koch my partial differential equations instructor would be proud!), but still a way to go from 3.2GHz to 3.7GHz, even with Intel 7. There is room for debate on this one.

As for your first example, 2.9GHz to 3.7GHz is also a stretch at 48W.

I stand by my adjective. 48W for 8 Gracemonts @3.7GHz is "great" from a power/performance point of view.

Let's see where I put it on one subjective scale of adjectives!

Sucks
Bad
Not too bad
Meh
Kind of meh
Okay
Decent
Pretty good
Good
Really Good
Great <========This is the one I got scolded for using and made planets collide!
Really great
Fantastic
Astounding
Unbelievable

and the top of the chart...


Hulk SMASH!!!

 

[lobz]

Clocks don't change until this coming weekend FYI.

You sir, are wrong.

 

[Asterox]

No doubt, video title is well deserved.

 

[DrMrLordX]

One thing I noticed.... You can only buy the 12600 and 12700 at newegg. Others OOS. Amazon has the 12900k for $1600!

Wonder if yields are an issue on the 12900k?

Blah, but why use DDR4 3200mhz CL22 for test vs DDR5 4800mhz CL40? This is completely unnecessary, 3200mhz CL16 DDR4 memory is very cheep.

There is no need to help brutally overpriced DDR5 memory.

Pretty sure Anandtech stuck to JEDEC settings for their RAM. DDR3-3200 CL/CAS16 is technically "overclocked".

Agreed, gonna be a safe bet that Raptor Lake is the one to get. DDR5 5600, more E cores and improved cache for gaming ( whatever that means ) -> probably Intel is fixing some of deficiencies in memory subsystem.

Raptor Lake has to face off against Zen4.

As for Alder Lake-S, it looks like 12600k and 12700k will be the best offerings, effectively knocking 5600x and 5800x off their pegs since those chips will probably not get v-cache enhanced versions down the road. I doubt B2-stepping upgrades to those SKUs will move the bar much.

Otherwise, the 12900k gets 3 months to shine, and then it will probably get knocked off its peg again. Overall, not really that impressive unless you stack it up against Rocket Lake-S. 5950X and 5900X really shouldn't be winning anything by this point, given how many technical achievements are baked into Alder Lake. I think that IMC is really holding them back.

 

[Space Tyrant]

(derived from the links posted on page 14)

 

[UsandThem]

Wonder if yields are an issue on the 12900k?

It's pretty common for the top Intel CPUs to sell out first when they first launch.

Enthusiasts/first adopters are the ones who preorder / buy on day one want the fastest chip for testing/performance/bragging rights.

 

[Ajay]

Homey done playing the GPU pricing insanity game until (if ever) that GPU prices return to reasonable levels. I'm not dropping $1.5k+ on a video card.....ever.

While I 'liked' this post, the reality is that my wife will never ever allow me to drop $1.5K on a video card