Question Alder Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

With the release of Alder Lake less than a week away and the "Lakes" thread having turned into a nightmare to navigate I thought it might be a good time to start a discussion thread solely for Alder Lake.

 

[Hulk]

to go ham on power draw

I learned a new slang term. Love it. Thanks.

 

[Hulk]

SOT but kind of interesting. When I upgrade my rigs I always run the Vegas Pro 2010 render test.

2006 - Core 2 Duo E6400, o/c to 3.2GHz
1025 seconds

2011 - 2500k o/c 4.2GHz
164 seconds (625% improvement)

2013 - 4770k, no o/c I got a crappy one
49 seconds (334% improvement)

2021 - 12700k stock
15 seconds (326% improvement)

Pretty crazy, 1025 seconds to 15 seconds over 15 years. That's over 68x faster!

Looking back I really held onto that Haswell for a long time. That thing has legs.
The rig before the E6400 was a P4 3.06 in 2002 but the test wasn't available then.
And before that a PIII850 and before that a Celeron 300A>450 and before that a P90 and before that an SX25 and before that an Atari 800 with the Assembly Language cartridge!

 

[Markfw]

SOT but kind of interesting. When I upgrade my rigs I always run the Vegas Pro 2010 render test.

2006 - Core 2 Duo E6400, o/c to 3.2GHz
1025 seconds

2011 - 2500k o/c 4.2GHz
164 seconds (625% improvement)

2013 - 4770k, no o/c I got a crappy one
49 seconds (334% improvement)

2021 - 12700k stock
15 seconds (326% improvement)

Pretty crazy, 1025 seconds to 15 seconds over 15 years. That's over 68x faster!

Looking back I really held onto that Haswell for a long time. That thing has legs.
The rig before the E6400 was a P4 3.06 in 2002 but the test wasn't available then.
And before that a PIII850 and before that a Celeron 300A>450 and before that a P90 and before that an SX25 and before that an Atari 800 with the Assembly Language cartridge!

Never tried AMD, even when they were on top ?

 

[Hulk]

Never tried AMD, even when they were on top ?

If the miner's hadn't ruined the GPU market I would have gone AMD last year.
It's arguable but AMD may still be on top!

 

[2blzd]

SOT but kind of interesting. When I upgrade my rigs I always run the Vegas Pro 2010 render test.

2006 - Core 2 Duo E6400, o/c to 3.2GHz
1025 seconds

2011 - 2500k o/c 4.2GHz
164 seconds (625% improvement)

2013 - 4770k, no o/c I got a crappy one
49 seconds (334% improvement)

2021 - 12700k stock
15 seconds (326% improvement)

Pretty crazy, 1025 seconds to 15 seconds over 15 years. That's over 68x faster!

Thanks for sharing this, I got a real kick out it. Especially as a fellow video editor, this hits home! Makes me wish I did something similiar with my rigs over the years, super rad post!

 

[DrMrLordX]

Never tried AMD, even when they were on top ?

It's fair. I haven't had an Intel rig of my own since 1997.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's fair. I haven't had an Intel rig of my own since 1997.

I only owned a Sempron once, overclocked from 2GHz to 3GHz. Sadly, didn't get to spend as much time enjoying it as I could have. Had to go out into the cruel world and make a living. My brothers used it for a year, until the overclock messed up the mobo USB ports and the whole thing got unstable. They upgraded to Intel something. I've bought AMD laptops for my friends and they are happy with them. But generally, I've noticed people being hesitant towards AMD because they don't want second best. They want THE best. Convincing people even when AMD was the absolute best with 5000 series didn't prove fruitful. My IT guy, for example, refused to get AMD laptops for our company, even when they offered better price performance ratio. He didn't trust them to be as good as Intel.

 

[lobz]

I only owned a Sempron once, overclocked from 2GHz to 3GHz. Sadly, didn't get to spend as much time enjoying it as I could have. Had to go out into the cruel world and make a living. My brothers used it for a year, until the overclock messed up the mobo USB ports and the whole thing got unstable. They upgraded to Intel something. I've bought AMD laptops for my friends and they are happy with them. But generally, I've noticed people being hesitant towards AMD because they don't want second best. They want THE best. Convincing people even when AMD was the absolute best with 5000 series didn't prove fruitful. My IT guy, for example, refused to get AMD laptops for our company, even when they offered better price performance ratio. He didn't trust them to be as good as Intel.

That IT guy is like the hotel clerk, the catering expert with 3 years of catering school behind him. When you meet him at the reception in the morning, he can't deduct 38 from 50 in 2 minutes, and generally can't check you out in 15 minutes if you've had more than a bottle of sparkling water from your minibar. But don't worry, you'll never be accepted to work at that hotel without that schooling 😉
State of most modern countries.

 

[Hulk]

I only owned a Sempron once, overclocked from 2GHz to 3GHz. Sadly, didn't get to spend as much time enjoying it as I could have. Had to go out into the cruel world and make a living. My brothers used it for a year, until the overclock messed up the mobo USB ports and the whole thing got unstable. They upgraded to Intel something. I've bought AMD laptops for my friends and they are happy with them. But generally, I've noticed people being hesitant towards AMD because they don't want second best. They want THE best. Convincing people even when AMD was the absolute best with 5000 series didn't prove fruitful. My IT guy, for example, refused to get AMD laptops for our company, even when they offered better price performance ratio. He didn't trust them to be as good as Intel.

I think it's a little more complicated. As a department head or someone in charge of large purchases if you do your research and try to save the company some money it can backfire. Say there is an issue with what you bought and it's not related directly to it being one brand or another just something that went wrong that could have happened with any product. The person above you asks "You bought the IBM right?" You say, "well no if you look at my research you'll see that..." And he's done with you. So do you put your ass on the line for the company trying to get them a better product for less money or stay with the "name brand" and CYA? I made a purchase like this just this past summer and I was nervous up until the minute everything was up and running. It was a large radio purchase, mobiles, repeater, software so I could do programming, etc... The safe bet was motorola but the RCA's provide much better value. Luckily it all worked out and I looked like a wizard. But a glitch here or there and I could have been the fall guy.

Anyway at the end of the day everybody makes a decision, right or wrong, for a reason.

 

[deasd]

SOT but kind of interesting. When I upgrade my rigs I always run the Vegas Pro 2010 render test.


Pretty crazy, 1025 seconds to 15 seconds over 15 years. That's over 68x faster!

Because nowaday CPUs are more and more like SIMD-Cluster than just a CPU.

If you compare them by using Superpi/FritzChess, you'll find there's barely differences except frequency or multithreading scenario. No surprise when new CPUs are double-digit times faster than those from 10 years ago.

 

[prtskg]

What's the size of i5 12600k in mm^2?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

He didn't trust them to be as good as Intel.

I will never grok brand loyalty.

Back to Alder Lake - 12400 is poised to be THE bang for buck gaming CPU. AMD will need to respond with a big price cut for the 5600x. The 5800x can be had for over a $100 cheaper than MSRP at this point. We should see the same with the 5600x once the 12400/f is launched. Horrible time to be in the GPU buying market, great time for the other parts.

 

[VirtualLarry]

12400 is poised to be THE bang for buck gaming CPU.

I think so too!

 

[Makaveli]

I think it's a little more complicated. As a department head or someone in charge of large purchases if you do your research and try to save the company some money it can backfire. Say there is an issue with what you bought and it's not related directly to it being one brand or another just something that went wrong that could have happened with any product. The person above you asks "You bought the IBM right?" You say, "well no if you look at my research you'll see that..." And he's done with you. So do you put your ass on the line for the company trying to get them a better product for less money or stay with the "name brand" and CYA? I made a purchase like this just this past summer and I was nervous up until the minute everything was up and running. It was a large radio purchase, mobiles, repeater, software so I could do programming, etc... The safe bet was motorola but the RCA's provide much better value. Luckily it all worked out and I looked like a wizard. But a glitch here or there and I could have been the fall guy.

Anyway at the end of the day everybody makes a decision, right or wrong, for a reason.

Been there and done that I cannot stand suits in corporations that don't know anything about computers but they have to to sign off on the purchases. A few clueless end users complaining about a product because of their lack of ability to use computers can tank you sometimes. Going the status quo is sometimes better then trying to save them money or doing something better. So when something goes wrong like in most corporations its turns into finger pointing time and playing the blame game. And if you put in something different from the usual you are suspect #1.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Intel is shipping mobile ADL to customers, Link.
I wonder when we can expect first laptops to be out.

 

[Hulk]

Intel is shipping mobile ADL to customers, Link.
I wonder when we can expect first laptops to be out.

6 Golden Coves at 2.9GHz. Wonder what the E will be running frequency-wise?

I'm really anticipating the power/clock ratings for the 2+8 ultra mobile parts.

Do we have any clarity on the total number of ADL dies?

Desktop
8+8, which would of course include 8+8 and 8+4 parts, 32 EU graphics. Does it also include 6+4?
6+0 - Separate die? 32EU graphics

Mobile
6+8 - Mobile with 96EU graphics?
2+8 - UM with 96EU graphics?

 

[igor_kavinski]

The synergy between Intel CPU with Xe and discrete ARC GPU in the same laptop may make for a monster combination in Handbrake.

 

[jpiniero]

Desktop
8+8, which would of course include 8+8 and 8+4 parts, 32 EU graphics. Does it also include 6+4?
6+0 - Separate die? 32EU graphics

Just 8+8+1 and 6+0+1. You can of course cut down.

Mobile
6+8 - Mobile with 96EU graphics?
2+8 - UM with 96EU graphics?

Yeah.

 

[Hulk]

Just 8+8+1 and 6+0+1. You can of course cut down.



Yeah.

Okay thanks. So 8+8+1 is for 8+8, 8+4, and 6+4. I understand that. It makes sense.
But I don't understand 6+0. From a yield point of view isn't that rough for production? But now as I'm typing this I'm sure they are binning 4+0 for parts lower down the stack right?

 

[blckgrffn]

I will never grok brand loyalty.

Back to Alder Lake - 12400 is poised to be THE bang for buck gaming CPU. AMD will need to respond with a big price cut for the 5600x. The 5800x can be had for over a $100 cheaper than MSRP at this point. We should see the same with the 5600x once the 12400/f is launched. Horrible time to be in the GPU buying market, great time for the other parts.

I think the whole needing to drop $500 to get new GPU, minimum, makes this a way less compelling space.

If you are dropping $1k on a 3070, why bother dropping under 8C/16T for your long term gaming box?

If you are on a real budget and get an actual $200 GPU you'll be strapped by your GPU almost no matter what, so choosing AMD or Intel is irrelevant and it's likely Intel will carry a platform premium even if the CPU is the "same" price. People will choose based on brand preference.

And if you are so budget you aren't getting a GPU, then the "obvious" pick is the 5600G. If I was building a general purpose PC for someone I would consider the 12400 if the cost was equal or maybe a 5% premium over AMD because of the full PCIe advantages (so long as Intel doesn't gimp the B660 type platform). That's going to be a huge challenge with quality B450 boards regularly below $100.

I feel like the budget PC gaming segment is washed out and most holding older GPUs are probably serviced fine by their CPUs, like the late 2010's when there wasn't anything happening on the CPU front so there was less reason to do full system upgrades. If all you can do is read about new GPUs... sigh. And if someone does upgrade from an 9600K or something the 12400 wont' be where they stop - they'll go to at least the K CPU because they already showed an irrational streak in the past

All this to say... I don't think either company will cut prices much with the 5600G and 5700G already standing at $200 and $270 or so. They (Intel and AMD) might as well hold the line, it's not like retail CPUs are in some huge backlog.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

@blckgrffn

Some counterpoints and opinions -

Forums are filled with financially secure folks, and their builds and buying habits are not remotely representative of the larger demographic of gamers on significantly tighter budgets.

$200 and under CPUs are always the biggest market. The minority pair them with boards that cost more than 2/3rds of the cost. Reddit and YT comment sections show gamers building new budget PCs, but using their old GPU with them. Because those old 4/4, 6/6, 4/8 were no longer servicing them well. If a GPU starts to struggle, reduce res and/or visuals and game on. If a CPU does not have the threads or performance for the game you are playing, there is no help = RIP CPU. GPU prices being derp, stretching that old card's life means a better CPU. The CPU misery being exacerbated by the reduced res and visuals that old card is forced to use, resulting in the CPU getting spanked harder than ever.

Now, how many are going to go 12400 remains to be seen. Many already went 3600, 10400/f, or 11400/f. Maybe i5 1X600 series because there were some serious hot deals here and there. The cheap B450 should not hurt 12400 sales much. B560 could be had at launch for $7X and up. I expect there will be sub $100 B660 too. Platform cost will not be radically different, and a small gap can be justified by the newer tech. And as you pointed out, brand preference will play a roll, and Intel has plenty of folks that prefer them.

On pricing - I have high confidence there will be a 25 percent, likely higher, price cut to the 5600X, when the 12400 (its real competition) hits. The small price gap between the 5800x and 5600x is hilarious right now, it won't last. And given that every 5 series except the 5600x keeps getting price drops, I am confused by the hold the line comment. Alder Lake has created pressure, resulting in price drops. 5600x is on deck.

"it's not like retail CPUs are in some huge backlog." For AMD, that has not been the case for very long though, least we forget. Heck, we had to wait forever for the APUs to get to retail, here in the states, while they filled OEM/S.I. demand.

All that aside, I agree the 5600G is the obvious choice for a budget build now. Mine works a treat. And the used market makes things way more complicated. But this is the Alder Lake thread, and we are talking about where it fits in. And I still expect the 12400 reviews to turn fence sitters into motivated buyers.

 

[TheELF]

On pricing - I have high confidence there will be a 25 percent, likely higher, price cut to the 5600X, when the 12400 (its real competition) hits. The small price gap between the 5800x and 5600x is hilarious right now, it won't last. And given that every 5 series except the 5600x keeps getting price drops, I am confused by the hold the line comment. Alder Lake has created pressure, resulting in price drops. 5600x is on deck.

I very much doubt that amd is going to reduce prices by that much, if they are forced into something like that they will just discontinue them and put the vcache variants in their place, maybe even at a premium.
AMD has to make enough money per cpu to pay off tsmc and to make a profit themselves, why would they drop prices for any sku if they could just use those wafers to make a higher margin part instead? Sure if they are all just binned parts that can't be used for anything else but somehow I doubt that that is the case.

Any discount up until now has been from retailers that are trying to move older stock, amd has not changed any price of any 5 series sku, at least not yet.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I very much doubt that amd is going to reduce prices by that much,

I am not so much concerned with what AMD has in mind, I misrepresented my thoughts by saying AMD would cut prices. I really mean the retailers I buy from. And they have already cut prices on most of the 5 series. MicroCenter has the 5800x for $299 on and off, it launched at $449. It can be found for $341.xx from Newegg, Amazon, and Walmart right now. That is a big price drop. The 5900x can be had for $484 it was $549. The 5700G and 5600G have already seen significant price cuts. Those are the facts on the ground guys; no speculation required.

 

[igor_kavinski]

DDR4 vs. DDR5 Memory Performance For Intel Core i5-12600K Alder Lake On Linux - Phoronix

That's at ISO-frequency.

 

[blckgrffn]

I am not so much concerned with what AMD has in mind, I misrepresented my thoughts by saying AMD would cut prices. I really mean the retailers I buy from. And they have already cut prices on most of the 5 series. MicroCenter has the 5800x for $299 on and off, it launched at $449. It can be found for $341.xx from Newegg, Amazon, and Walmart right now. That is a big price drop. The 5900x can be had for $484 it was $549. The 5700G and 5600G have already seen significant price cuts. Those are the facts on the ground guys; no speculation required.

This is what I meant as well to some degree - I think the response has already happened, and like @TheELF mentioned I am confused as to why the 5600x even continues to exist with the presence of the 5600G at ~$80 cheaper and a 5700G at roughly the same price. 5800X sitting somewhere above the 5700G might not makes sense to us but from a merchandising segment they fit into their slots of of cheapest (5600G) - up a step (5700G) - step into the "real" Zen 3 w/PCIe 4 etc - 5800x. I expect the prices available now will be held onto, but that is AMD stuff and the under $200 market? Another thread.

By lack of backlog I mean that there isn't stock sitting around creating a lot pressure - it's hard to imagine there is given the import situation. I would be really interested to hear what is going on with (negotiated) OEM prices but we don't get access to those generally

In terms of Alder Lake excitement - is the 12400 happening when again? End of Q1? Q2? Will that be close enough to the follow on product (Raptor Lake?) that we'll be slow walking at that point? Shopping at MC for a "minimal PC" right now it's hard to walk past the 10400 through the 11700K and maybe those products on discount might create some great entry level builds - obviously the 11700k should be cheaper than the 12400. It'll be "slower" but... value? For me the fact that it has the new gen GPU means that for my "normal people" builds it would be A-OK. I'll definitely consider *any* ADL SKU with 4C/8T as a minimum as well - will MC have the ADL i3 at $100 or less? If so - let's go! I am more excited about that. Even replacing 3770k through 4770K (what I will be targeting) should result in a nice uplift in performance and the modern chipset/firmware goodness.

I'd expect those 11500 through 11700K being on 14nm Intel will keep RKL in production for a bit? (tangential but they must have some plan for this, right? ha)