All about cell phones..

[m1ke101]

i'm in san francisco and i had sprint for a year and i would have to say sprint is probably one of the better service providers here..

 

[drue]

Ok, even though I suspect a lock coming, I must correct about a million things from the first post in order that people don't walk away with all the wrong information. It just hurts my head.

There were 4 wireless protocols (in the US):
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Analog (AMPS) - static, but you wouldn't "drop" a call, it'd go to static long before... the benefit, keep driving or turn around and you conversation *might* resume. (800 mhz)
TDMA - The next protocol to come along in the US. Basically, your message gets chopped into a bunch of bits and pieces, compressed, and they get shuffled into a queue in midair and sent to the tower. This was the first digital technology to come along... think ATT and Babybell, you know, back when those were basically the only options. (800 mhz for old style digital/ 1900 mhz for PCS)
CDMA - Old technology (WWII), but put to new use when PrimeCo and Sprint built out their networks, mostly using Qualcomm parts (they had the rights to cdmaOne). Your voice is chopped up, duplicated in slightly different bands, and blasted shotgun-style at the tower. The tower pieces it together, or, if it can't you get the digital worble sound as it does it's best. When too many people are on a cell, best signal wins, loser's call is dropped. Thus it's VERY important to build out a dense network to support the number of customers and maintain good service. ( 800mhz analog, 900mhz PCS (outside US), 1900mhz PCS)
GSM - While GSM qualifies as it's own technology, it's more of "windows on top of DOS" kind of setup. It was set up as bunch of features on top of a TDMA network working in a higher frequency. Due to frequency differences between the US and the rest of the world (as well as no established roaming contracts) you could not roam using a US GSM phone in Europe or vice versa. Now there are triband phone which allow roaming. (900mhz and 1900mhz in Europe, 1800 mhz in US).

Cell phones are divided into 3 (not really, as you'll see) generations:
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1G - Analog and digital (non-pcs), ala ATT and Babybell service when a phone could just dial and receive calls.
2G - TDMA PCS, CDMA PCS, and GSM - You want to send messages or use your cellular as a modem (albeit slowly), you got it. PCS is here.
3G - The once mythical couldn't be decided on standard. Can't decide.. well, let's throw out a couple options but make it 2 standards instead. Kind of a temporary one, and a longer term goal. Introducing cdma2000 (cdma with tweaked features) and w-cdma (wideband cdma... wideband meaning fatter pipe meaning more features). Also, cdma2000 has several different tiers of speeds. The first tier (1x) only allows at most 144kps throughput. This resembles a 2.5G protocol (see below) more than a 3G.

But... lots of carriers decided 3G was expensive and didn't think the features needing all that bandwidth had really been invented yet or that consumers would pay enough to cover costs of implementing them. They wanted a shorter term solution. Welcome to the fractional number generation, 2.5G. As if being an outcast because of it's decimal wasn't enough, it actually ended up being even more of a black sheep by having multiple personalities.

2.5G protocols -
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CDMAone - A revised CDMA with more bandthwidth, better compression, more reliability, and just different enough from cdma2000 to make CDMA phone in North America not work with those in Europe and Japan. We gotta be different... it's our claim to fame. This is what Sprint and Verizon are using. When they want to jump to 3G, they go straight to cdma2000. Easy enough.
GSM with GPRS - GSM with General Packet Radio Service. GPRS can send data at speeds ranging from 9.6 kpbs to 57.6 kpbs by combining three to six voice channels in the TDMA system. So, you can browse the internet about as fast as you can on dial-up. YAH! This protocol got a big boost when ATT decided to jump to it instead of going to CDMAone as a go-between to 3G. Cingular and any existing GSM carriers (Voicestream/T-Mobile) also are migrating along this path. Here's where things get a bit tricky. In order to go to 3G, GSM carriers are moving to an intermediate 3G technology before making the jump to W-CDMA. EDGE (Enhanced Data rate for GSM Evolution) is an evolutionary 3G technology based on existing GSM which will allow 384kbps data over a TDMA connection (once they work out a few kinks in quality). While EDGE is considered 3G, it's not a worldwide 3G standard, meaning it isn't really an approved final destination... thus the eventual leap to W-CDMA.


What this means to you:
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* The 2.5G (CDMA2000 1X and GSM/GPRS) networks are not fully built out. In other words... your fancy internet access feature isn't going to work everywhere yet. Check with your local carriers.

* Reception depends upon where you use your phone and where the towers are in relation to you... not which carrier you have. Every carrier has their problem areas (dropped calls, etc) and dead spots. They all basically are using the same frequency range (1800-1900 mhz) so one doesn't work indoors better than another. Only for you, only for that building, in your city, with your crappy phone with the antenna kinked just a little bit at the tip. Everyone's experience will be different (even using the same phone model and carrier standing next to each other). It's the nature of the business and technology... YMMV.

* Verizon and Sprint are almost identical in frequency and technology. The only difference is where the towers are, how well they're tuned, and which model of phone they're carrying and whether or not your region of that carrier has updated to 3G. Each carrier has different penetration rates for different areas. One may work better for you in your city, but again, that's only for you. Not to say "Verizon is better than sprint because of" some nonsense about their frequency.

* ATT and Cingular are virutally the same as each other, as well. Read the previous paragraph and instead substitute these names for the previous. Also, in some ways they are almost more alike than Verizon and Sprint because ATT and Cingular carry a lot more ofthe same phone models than the CDMA carriers do. If you bars read high on ATT on a certain phone and you always get dropped, chances are if you have the phone reprogrammed for Cingular and stand in an area with a similar tower configuration, your signal strenth will read high and your call will still drop. There's no magical mystical difference in how one carrier implements the same technology over the other. It all comes down to tower placement and tuning (and de-tuning in the case of interference with other radio equipment located nearby).

* Your satisfaction is probably going to depend a lot on how well you chose your plan and phone and whether it fits your needs more than what carrier you have (unless one of the carriers is neglegent in building out in your area).

* While the carriers all run different prices for phones and each carrier may have it at different prices in different markets or even through different retailers, it has a lot less to do with how much kickback that carrier gets and more to do with logistics. If a retailer can sell a lot of phones for a particular carrier, that carrier will cut the retailer a deal on the price of the phone in order to boost the subscriber base. If a particular phone model isn't selling well, a carrier might offer a retailer a discount in order to liquidate the model as well as draw more subscribers. Pretty much everbody has a contracted agreement period for a reason... they don't make money off you on the phone... it's the service they want you coughing up money on with no hope of escape. Not only that, they're not making as much money off you as they can on the service due to their own price wars. So now they want you to buy added features, especially ones that cost them relatively nothing and you lots. That's the beauty of SMS, checking stock quotes, etc. Very little bandwidth used, and they can get a premium for it. The next best thing is data services, though since they use more bandwidth, are not as profitable if they don't charge you handsomely for it. And once you've got it, you want it faster, making them spend the money on the next infrastucture upgrade to next generation service. So they do charge you fairly handsomely for it.

* GSM will not be obsolete for quite a while. GSM consists of 2G GSM, the new GSM/GPRS, and then EDGE. You can expect this to reach easily to 2006. Even so, W-CDMA incorporated a lot of the benefits of GSM and so GSM will live long into the future.

And to wrap it up, I'll post a series of progressions on the technology each carrier used/uses/will use to make it simpler... the key to reading this is used -> uses -> will use
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ATT - Analog 800mhz -> TDMA 800mhz (digital)-> TDMA 1900mhz PCS -> GSM/GPRS -> EGDE (GSM) -> W-CDMA

BabyBell/Cingular - Analog 800mhz -> TDMA 800mhz (digital)-> TDMA 1900mhz PCS -> GSM/GPRS -> EGDE (GSM) -> W-CDMA
(for those of you who live in the areas where Cingular absorbed companies like "Bellsouth PCS (GSM)" refer to the Voicestream/Omnipoint/Aerial/other GSM progression below

VoiceStream/Omnipoint/Aerial/T-Mobile/other GSM -> GSM (1800 mhz) -> GSM/GPRS -> EDGE -> W-CDMA

Verizon (PrimeCo) -> CDMA (800mhz) -> CDMA PCS (1900 mhz) -> CDMAone -> CDMA2000 -> W-CDMA

Sprint (seperated out in edit because of it's digital start and slightly different technical path from PrimeCo) - CDMA PCS (1900 mhz) -> CDMAone -> CDMA2000 1xRTT (144kbps data theoretical, Sprint's throughput about 60-70kbps) -> CDMA2000 1xEV (2Mbps data) -> W-CDMA

Phew!

I would have let this post drop as directed, but leaving dribble out there for who knows how many people to see and base important decisions on made my brain hurt. Plus, it kept rising to the top on off topic info about Florida's lovely methane generating mountains known as trash dumps. My favorite is in Port St. Lucie where they proudly carve the name of the city into the grass on the side of it visible from I-95.

editted to correct Sprints current position and migration path to 3G

 

[iahk]

Thank you for the informative post, drue.

 

[Dragnov]

Hey great post drue, but doesn't Sprint already have several full 3G phones. The Samsung A500 being one of them? I'm not quite sure of Verizon but I'm pretty sure they are headed there next...

Team Mobile is 2.5G. I also heard they just bought out Cingular...

 

[RobsTV]

Over past several years had:

Aerial/Voicestream, not bad when Aerial, poor coverage. (rate as 6 out of 10)

ATT digital, pure crap. Live on west coast of Florida, and thought it was just my area, especially
after reading reviews on cell phone service that said ATT was the worst in Tampa/St Pete area,
even though it is all flat, with no tall buildings. Dropped calls to customers, led to lost business,
but the worst was when travelling across the U.S. Calls to customer service was a joke. Phone died,
and was not allowed to simply go to an ATT center to exchange phone. Had to wait more than a week,
as phone was now backordered, and the only way to get a replacement was to have ATT ship me one,
(when they had one back in stock). When I finally gave up, and was willing to pay early cancellation
fee to get out of the worst cell phone service known to man kind, I couldn't even do that. Same
old story. After being on hold for more than 45 min (after 6 months, and dozens of calls to CS,
none connect to human in less than 30 min), the jerk says computers are down, so they can't cancel
my account. Still down, more than 12 hours later. Gotta stop ranting, as all the bad memories are back.
(Rank ATT 0 on a scale of 1 to 10).

Last and current cell provider is Sprint.
After talking to some trucker friends that rely on cell phone when traveling, tried what they use. Sprint.
The phone I have won the Cell phone shootout, (Sanyo 4500), and cost only $9.00 AR.
While others around me using every other provider need to leave there cell phones in their cars, because
they don't work inside the buildings we are at, the Sprint service with Sanyo 4500 works perfectly indoors.
After more than 16 months with Sprint, and rarely a problem, Rate 9 out of 10.
Even the few calls to customer service, always got to a human within 2 minutes.

Sorry if this seem like I blew a gasket, but I did.
After personally tests show the above results, it annoys the hell out of me to see ATT mentioned in a good way.
Best thing to do is talk to others in the area you are in, and ask, ask, and ask some more.
See who is able to use their phones, and also see who is not.
Then make your decision on who to go with.

 

[TheManiacal1]

Drue - mega kudos on post; excruciatingly accurate and very concise. g'job!

Grimlock - it should be noted that while some carriers are introducing what they claim to be 2.5G phones (and in some cases, 3G); keep in mind that whilel their phones maybe xG compatible, their networks aren't. at least not in their entirety. many have test markets where 2.5G is actually supported, but for the rest of us, it's not the case just quite yet.

and who's "team mobile" ? can't say i've ever heard of them. there's T Mobile, and they bought out Voicestream here a while ago.

 

[Placer14]

One thing i'll note (and i'll do it here since this will probably be locked). THis guy was just posting his opinion and he's entitled to it. I've found that ATers are VERY subjective to what is posted. Just cause it doesn't match exactly your experience, you don't need to flame. Since we're all sharing our opinion, there's mine.

And I have VStream/Tmobile and it works wonderfully all up the east coast of florida. So ;-P

 

[huesmann]

Originally posted by: Armethius
Thanks for the info, and I know you are well-intentioned. But placing Sprint #4 just because "you heard rumors" isn't exactly the best information. I have SprintPCS, and while the customer service is terrible, I have never had any gripes about signal quality and service.

I have. Early and often.

 

[Wolverine27]

Great post drue.

 

[MontyBurns]

Blanket statements about the quality of different carriers are useless. You need to get a phone and try it at home (all offer at least a 48-hour grace period) and judge for yourself. Verizon does not have teh same equipment in NY as it does in Colorado.

 

[MonkeyWithAnUZI]

Bah....Sprint can go blow Donkey Eggs.

I've been a Sprint customer for 3 years, so I speak from a certain amount of experience. My wife and I have kept Sprint 'cos we're on a Corporate plan, and get a 15% discount (which equals about $10). I might also add I travel all over the Midwest/East coast, making calls while driving and sitting (it's a pain to reconcile the hotel phone bill...easier to use my cell phone, and it doesn't cost me extra).

Sprint WAS good way back when....excellent service, good customer service. Over the past few years, I've been getting the following message on my phone:

Verizon Wireless. NS20. The call you are attempting to make cannot be completed at this time. Please try your call again later.

Hmmm.....

To add insult to injury, I live 100 feet from a cell tower, and about 1/2 a mile from 4 others. You'd think I'd have blanket coverage. This couldn't be further from the truth. In my resides location, which is purportedly 100% coverage, I get signal loss, roaming, bleh. Several friends who hopped on the SprintPCS bandwagon 3 years ago with me are reporting the same problems. I replaced my Samsung 3500 with a new NS400.....hasn't changed a damned thing.

I'm having to switch to AT&T 'cos of corporate policy...fine by me. The only sad thing is the voice quality.....Sprint DOES have clear voice, even half a continent away. But that doesn't help you if you lose the signal *Are you there? Are you there?*.

End of Line.

 

[pamchenko]

great post thesaint51, and this is an awesome thread. I pretty much agree with thesaint51, but then again, I'm probably from the same region as he is with the exception that I go to school in upstate NY which challenges cell phone reception areas

I am a vstream user, but the fact that they have the coolest phones for the cheapest with an affordable regional (actually nationwide) plan for landline less use makes me stay on vstream and not complain too much about their service. there's nothing like an ooo and ahh factor from other people in upstate ny still using startacs or nokia 5100 series when u bust out a ericsson t68...esp the t68 that sells for 250 dollars in syracuse (the same on in chinatown that sells for 40).

 

[swNYC]

Nice post drue, are you a Telecom Analyst?

I thought Sprint was going to enter some sort of agreement with NTT DoCoMo to eventually bring the CDMAOne standard into North America? (Correct me if I'm wrong)

In Asia (and Europe somewhat) networks compete with each other by technology and niche stuff (GPRS, CDMAOne, wacky phones etc.), and competiton by pricing structure is secondary. However in the US, competition by pricing is the most important because the average American does not care what technology a network uses, they would care more about the price. To the average US consumer, "all cell phones are created equal" as long as you can speak to someone with it. Also, unlike Asian or European consumers, US consumers don't change phones that often. (On average, Asian consumers change phones every 6-8 months) This creates little incentive for Network SPs to implement technology and introduce new handsets, as the logistical and technical implications outweighs the potential revenue. For every new handset they sell, they have to do R&D, Compatibility Testing, Marketing, Logistics & Inventory etc. etc. That's why US handset models are generally a year behind from the rest of the world.

 

[drue]

Gr1mL0cK, you're right. Sprint's PCS Vision service is technically 3G (and I've editted my post to reflect that). It's cdma2000 1x which means that it can theoretically push 144kbps, but Sprint's implementation seems to reach about 60-70kbps. This resembles GSM/GPRS more than a 3G protocol (which were intitally designed with 2Mbps in mind). I'll consider it a real 3G protocol when it's cdma2000 1xEV which fattens the pipe a bit and bumps the speed up to 2Mbps as 3G's were intended to be.

swNYC, Sprint did migrate to cdmaOne. And they're in the process of moving to cdma2000 (see above).

MonkeyWithAnUZI, being that close to the tower with CDMA is not actually a good thing. Your phone equipment isn't designed to work next to a tower. Different carriers cell tower equipment only works well that close to that wide of a spectrum and strong of radio signal because of special tuning and shielding. Also, the radio signal isn't being sent straight down, they're set to cover a wide area, but under the tower is not designed to be covered as they want the majority of the signal to go outwards and reach more customers.

 

[drue]

For an actual wireless hot deal, see this post.

 

[MrPhelps]

I have two dixie cups with twenty feet of string between them for my phone. That is cheap.

 

[TheCub]

I've been in the Cellular biz for 5 years now and its completely YMMV. May the force be you

 

[DavemanUT]

Sprint owns Knoxville.

I hate it when people from different areas argue. I'm sure that in some cities, ATT is better. I'm sure that in others, Verizon is better. But here in Knoxville, Sprint is king. EVERYONE I know has Sprint. My dad's Verizon phone doesn't work at my house (3 miles from downtown Knoxville).

One other thing. Does anyone else have cricket? They are cheap, but it doesn't sound much better than MrPhelps attempt at communication.

D.C.

 

[TheCub]

I've sold Nextel, Verizon, Cingular, Voicestream, and AT&T, in the past but never Cricket. Its not available in Detroit. From what I know about Cricket is that its a service that is designed to replace a home phone. Meaning they put up a ton of towers in a city and it allows people to use the phones from home very well. As far as the phones ability to work in other areas. I couldn't tell you a thing about it. I am not even sure which technology they use or what roaming agreements they have in place. I've heard that in the areas its available it has become very popular.

 

[? (=Þ)]

and just my 2 cents about the topic... I don't see why this is a "Hot Deal".

just a quick question, do you work in the cell phone industry?

Resellers don't make as much as you make them sound. esp w/ asian stores willing to work for next to nothing profits. commission/phone sale minus operating expenses and commission to the sales rep is not a huge amount of profit as it may seem. You must factor in the fact that sales reps generally are commission based, one year contracts yield significantly much less commission, chargebacks (which mean zero commission plus eating the cost of the phone if you cannot collect from the customer), and the cost of dealing w/ idiot customers who break stuff and require replacement batteries/accessories.

A lot of times you get what you pay for. I sell phones, and I have very competative rates with corporate stores, but can't beat those "asian"/chinatown shops that sell the phones for a next to nothing profit. If something goes wrong, how many of those stores do you think will really try to help you? From my limited experience, some just send u to corporate stores when something goes wrong.

Where I work, we try to fix the problem, and/or will exchange the phone on the spot for the customer (depending on the situation) and handle the warranty or RMA for the customer.

And if you guys are gonna goto the asian store, check to see if you guys are getting cut on stuff... aftermarket batteries in general suck. If the store isnt giving you an OEM battery, you may run into problems. If you do, is the asian store going to exchange one for you at no cost, or charge you for the cost of another battery?

It's your call whether you guys want to save money or not, but definately resellers will usually have better corporate prices and possibly better service (i say that because sometimes corporate stores are packed!)

--------
to sum up all of the tech talk... CDMA in general provides better reception because it can run on 3 frequencies, whereas GSM in the US is limited to one (FCC crap). Granted coverage will still vary depending on how cell towers are setup from area to area, GSM coverage indoors I think is crap.

At the moment, it appears that its gonna come down to CDMA vs GSM, verizon/nextel/sprint vs cingular/AT&T/T-mobile (voicestream)... and even then, AT&T/T-mobile may not be allowed to use every GSM tower that cingular owns... at least in so cal they do not use the entire GSM network cingular has, so reception is slightly worse... sometimes its not really noticeable, but your mileage may vary.

I use verizon in so cal, and do not recall running into any more than 2-3 deadspots outdoors yet (basements of buildinds dont count). I can rate each service for so cal in my opinion, but does it really matter? w/ the 100 of other opinions who's gonna really listen to me?


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oh and the main reason cell phone prices vary because the reseller gets to decide how much to sell it at. Commission is usually pretty set as everyone goes thru the same couple of master agents. Just that asian "chinatown" stores seem to like to do twice the work for the same profit while providing much worse customer service.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: dirtrat

4. Sprint PCS - I don't personally know any satisfied Sprint customers,

Not a good topic for this forum IMHO but now you know ANOTHER satisfied Sprint customer.

 

[InfectedMushroom]

here's another vote for sprint pcs.

i think the original poster has no clue as to what he's talking about.

i've had sprint for over 2 years and it's worked great for me. no reception problem, great phones and I NEVER got the annoying "all circuits are busy" that my friends using att and verizon get quite often. coverage had been great and i have traveled around the country a little bit.

 

[dshodson]

i actually have to agree with the originator of this thread that sprint has serious prbs at least in san antonio tx
the only reason i dont switch services is im not sure who really would have the best reception/deal
im always amazed at how the comercials for sprint make it appear like the pcs connection is clear as day when in reality for me nothing could be further from the truth

D

 

[xospec1alk]

i just wanted to say that cell phone service is very subjective to ones own opinions...i've had sprint for the last 5-6 years and i have no problems w/ it. excpet for bad customer service.

 

[cameronj]

You clearly don't travel to my house very much.

Seriously though, this thread really should be locked, its just this guy's opinion. Not that its not true for whatever his experience has been, but its very unlikely that any given person will find service in their area to have the same patterns as the thread author found in his local area.

To find out the best service you have to ask friends who live in your building and coworkers. People who use their phones in the places where you will be using yours.