All Statues and Monuments must come down

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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Actually grant wasn't really that good of a guy. I do believe he committed quite a few war crimes on behalf of the north. It was quite a blood brutal war after all. There is a park and highschool here in my town named after him and I honestly feel quite odd about that seeing as there are so many other people who perhaps are better deserving.

That being said, I agree with your notion that its very hard to judge people on one aspect of their life and ignore everything else and ignoring the context of history. Its not easy but there there are clear cases where certain people shouldn't be idolized with statues.
The reason why the call to remove statues has gone nowhere is because the mob takes it to irrational extremes. Grant is a perfect example. Many historical figures are complex, as is our nation’s history. I support the removal of Confederate monuments explicitly placed as a protest to the civil rights movement, and there is societal momentum to do so. I do not support removing statues to leaders who were imperfect, or don’t pass some ridiculous modern woke test.

You need political momentum to enact lasting change. You lose momentum when you are unwilling to chastise those who are undermining the message.

Take San Francisco for example, perhaps one of the most socially liberal places on the planet. I am sure it would have been relatively easy to enact a legislative solution to Golden Gate Park. Even the nation of Spain is scratching its head over some of the targeted statues given our shared history in California.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,128
2,167
136
Washington was another slave owner. We can't keep talking about this greatest nation until we as a people quit painting our glorious past and founding fathers as the white knights of the time. It was business as usual. Enlightened new nation my ass.



Most our founding fathers and quite a few early presidents were slave owners. How do you paint that? Do we remove all of their statues, portraits, monuments and update all of history books to essentially say, these are our founding fathers but they were slaveholders so we are not going to honor them. Most in the US consider them great men but they were also a product of their times. What about all of the following US leaders who should have fixed the problem and didn't? Over 200 years and we are still dealing with systemic racism. Are we really going to blame the founding fathers for all of racism problems today?


 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,128
2,167
136
so would you expect germany to have a statue of hitler anywhere outside a history museum? if you answer no, then you already know why statues of confederate generals are offensive.



I've seen this comparison made before between Hitler and confederate generals. Can you explain that comparison. It seems like apples and oranges to me.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,822
10,361
136
I've seen this comparison made before between Hitler and confederate generals. Can you explain that comparison. It seems like apples and oranges to me.

why do we establish statues/monuments of people? normally, it is to honor them, or to bring to attention their greatness or achievements in some form or fashion.

so to have monuments of hitler would be to imply, on a societal scale, that hitler was a great german (austrian) from whom society can draw inspiration. if you want your society to believe in a master race and commit genocide, well, i suppose that's mission accomplished.

the same thought process would then apply to confederate generals. here are men who fought for a cause - to establish a nation where the dehumanization and subjugation of other humans was codified into the country's very foundation. to have statues of them would mean that there is some worthy deed or achievement, or that the cause for which they fought, is worth memorializing at the societal scale.

to establish statues of confederate generals then flies in the very face of the values of that the United States professes - that all (men) are created equal. Unless we really don't believe that after all....
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136

Similar to what I said in the other thread, this is very much like the "defund the police" rhetoric. The left cannot control its fringe elements from saying and doing stupid things. I wish the right could control its entire body politic from saying and doing stupid things. But this is America, where everyone has the right to say and do stupid things!

This and "defund the police" are going to be used by Trump and republicans as political weapons in this election season. Let's just hope their stupid things are even stupider, and more numerous, than ours. Probably a safe bet.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
6-21-2020

Yale University is named after Elihu Yale a slave owner and slave trader.

What do you think the new name should be?

Elihu Yale
Elihu Yale (5 April 1649 – 8 July 1721) was an American born British merchant, President of the East India Company settlement in Fort St. George, at Madras, and a benefactor of the Collegiate School in the Colony of Connecticut, which in 1718 was renamed Yale College in his honour.[1] On June 21, 2020 #CancelYale trended online after it was pointed out its founder Elihu Yale was a slave owner and trader.[2]

Contents
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,220
5,083
146
Most our founding fathers and quite a few early presidents were slave owners. How do you paint that? Do we remove all of their statues, portraits, monuments and update all of history books to essentially say, these are our founding fathers but they were slaveholders so we are not going to honor them. Most in the US consider them great men but they were also a product of their times. What about all of the following US leaders who should have fixed the problem and didn't? Over 200 years and we are still dealing with systemic racism. Are we really going to blame the founding fathers for all of racism problems today?


They didn't say shit in my time in school about the founding fathers and the part the slavery played in the beginnings of the nation. It was all glossed over. Let's teach the reality. They absolutely had a part in racism in this country, they were the beginning of it, along with how the native americans were treated, robbed, murdered.
None of that shit is statue-worthy.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Similar to what I said in the other thread, this is very much like the "defund the police" rhetoric. The left cannot control its fringe elements from saying and doing stupid things. I wish the right could control its entire body politic from saying and doing stupid things. But this is America, where everyone has the right to say and do stupid things!

This and "defund the police" are going to be used by Trump and republicans as political weapons in this election season. Let's just hope their stupid things are even stupider, and more numerous, than ours. Probably a safe bet.
It’s quickly becoming a sketch from a Monty Python movie. What did the Founding Fathers ever do for us!!! We’re the People’s Front of Judea, not the Judean People’s Front.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
It’s quickly becoming a sketch from a Monty Python movie. What did the Founding Fathers ever do for us!!! We’re the People’s Front of Judea, not the Judean People’s Front.

Yes, and while we're at it: what's so funny about Biggus Dickus?
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,717
25,054
136
So much hand wringing over some bird shit covered bronze not being displayed anymore. While the president accuses a group of Americans of being terrorists despite a lack of evidence of their involvement in violence. While the president publicly brags about trying to sabotage the response to a public health crisis because it makes him look bad. While the president has a man fired or fires a man who is most likely investigating those who are close to him for criminal acts.

There are several posters in this thread bitching about bronze objects while Nero fiddles as Rome burns. Shame.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136

I’m somewhat confused as to why anyone would have a problem with this statue being taken down.

It is not a condemnation of Roosevelt, the museum taking down this statue is very clear that it continues to honor him as a great man. The statue itself is just terrible.

Some reading...
 
Reactions: Starbuck1975

McLovin

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2007
1,911
58
91
A Dave McOwned thread, Ooowee this is something I've not experienced in a long ass time. Anyone else having nostalgia flashbacks?

I believe it is possible in a civilized society to pick and choose what statues/monuments still stand. Those commemorating overtly Racist/Traiterous individuals have no place in modern society.. I don't recall there being any of these in Japan, Italy, or Germany celebrating the third reich or whatever movement was popular at that time.
 
Reactions: Ken g6

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
So much hand wringing over some bird shit covered bronze not being displayed anymore. While the president accuses a group of Americans of being terrorists despite a lack of evidence of their involvement in violence. While the president publicly brags about trying to sabotage the response to a public health crisis because it makes him look bad. While the president has a man fired or fires a man who is most likely investigating those who are close to him for criminal acts.

There are several posters in this thread bitching about bronze objects while Nero fiddles as Rome burns. Shame.

Concerned posters are deeply concerned about some fringe elements on the left, while they intentionally ignore that the mainstream mob on the right-wing is demanding that govt agents brutalize and murder minorities and peaceful protesters for their speech in the name of law and order, all to cover up the criminal corruption that they elected to the White House.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,284
3,905
75
Some reading...
It's too bad that they can't keep the central Roosevelt statue.

This heroic group…will symbolize the fearless leadership, the explorer, benefactor and educator....

Maybe they could replace the figures next to him with, say, John Muir (the educator) and John D. Rockefeller Jr. (the benefactor)? Just an idea.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
It's too bad that they can't keep the central Roosevelt statue.
Maybe they could replace the figures next to him with, say, John Muir (the educator) and John D. Rockefeller Jr. (the benefactor)? Just an idea.

I don't think they should modify it as that effectively destroys it.
Perhaps a better idea is to move it over to an art museum and let it stands on its own merits as an exhibit.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
I agree with this guy

“The world does not need statues, relics of another age, that reflect neither the values of the person they intend to honor nor the values of equality and justice,” said Theodore Roosevelt IV, age 77, a great-grandson of the 26th president and a museum trustee. “The composition of the Equestrian Statue does not reflect Theodore Roosevelt’s legacy. It is time to move the statue and move forward.”
 
Reactions: pmv and skyking

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
So much hand wringing over some bird shit covered bronze not being displayed anymore. While the president accuses a group of Americans of being terrorists despite a lack of evidence of their involvement in violence. While the president publicly brags about trying to sabotage the response to a public health crisis because it makes him look bad. While the president has a man fired or fires a man who is most likely investigating those who are close to him for criminal acts.

There are several posters in this thread bitching about bronze objects while Nero fiddles as Rome burns. Shame.
WhatabouTrump
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I’m somewhat confused as to why anyone would have a problem with this statue being taken down.

It is not a condemnation of Roosevelt, the museum taking down this statue is very clear that it continues to honor him as a great man. The statue itself is just terrible.
I thought art was supposed to make us uncomfortable, can be open to interpretation and provoke discussion? Are we not doing that anymore? Should we just let the mob irrationally and incorrectly censor history?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
I thought art was supposed to make us uncomfortable, can be open to interpretatjon and provoke discussion? Are we not doing that anymore? Should we just let the mob irrationally and incorrectly censor history?
lol, you are basically a human Slate.com. There is nothing you can’t concern troll or think up a contrarian take about.
 
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