allofmp3.com is an ILLEGAL music download service

[Injury]

Originally posted by: DigDug

Either way you slice it, what you are doing is WRONG. You are taking something that doesn't belong to you and trying to justify your actions with stupidity and your own take on how the laws should be.

No I am not TAKING anything. I am making a copy of something - the "original" is never taken. If I were to steal a CD, then I submit to you.

And that's my point. Intellectual property is simply NOT the same kind of property as the tangible equivalent. The legislature has to STOP trying to retrofit it into the laws and framework of an ownerhip system that simply doesn't properly apply to it.

You can say that I'm breaking a law. You are correct. But don't tell me (1) that I'm "stealing" because that word simply does NOT apply, and (2) that I'm "WRONG" because there is nothing inherent in our visceral, fundamental notions of property that applies to the intellectual kind. And I "visceral" and "fundamental" because THAT is where our consensual "right" and "wrong" comes from. The very lack of consensus over this issue stands as a perfect testament to this.

Bull.

Again, you're just trying to justify taking what you have no legal right to. No matter how you want to word it you aren't compensating the original author for their labors which is not only a violation of copyright it's downright cheap-assed.

If you aren't willing to pay the price that the author or a authorized distributor is selling it for, you have no claim to it.

Whether you choose to believe it or not does not change it.

 

[CKent]

DRM is illegal as well, only the record companies' clout (eg. $$$) has passed it into law. The retired head of the RIAA even wrote a bit about how awful an idea it is. So take your pick. In a place crazy enough to legislate for profit, it's not surprising many pick the route that allows them to freely manipulate their music, copying it to a second PC they own, a portable player they own, etc.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: waggy
well i guess that ends the argument over if it was legal or not eh?

There was never an 'argument', except among stupid tools determined to delude themselves. I've been saying it's illegal since these threads started.

And you have been wrong, as Gene Valgene details earlier in this thread. The IFPI stating that something is illegal does not mean that it is illegal.

Not even close. Determinations by Russian legal authorities are irrelevant here (in the U.S. - I can't speak for other jurisdictions).

Of course. And it would certainly be illegal to host such a site here in the US (and in a number of other countries). However, what is NOT determined is that it's illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and pay for their services.

You may consider it morally wrong, but you have not established that it's illegal.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: edro

Originally posted by: kranky
It wasn't that long ago that people justified stealing music by saying that $15 for a CD with one good song wasn't fair, and if they could only buy the songs they wanted for a buck, well, then they'd buy them instead of stealing. Nearly everyone was on that bandwagon.
Now that you CAN get them for a buck, somehow that's still too much money?
Oh, and now we don't want to pay ANYTHING unless we know exactly who gets how much of the money.

CDs are one of the only products you cannot return if you are not satisfied. If I hear of a new band, buy their CD for $17, and it sucks... that is pretty much gambling. If I buy any other product in a store and it sucks, I can return it.

CDs are basically legalized gambling.

If you are still paying $17 for a CD you need to find a new store.

There are plenty of ways to listen to a CD legally before purchasing it... most commonly on the band's own website. Amazon and similar sites commonly have audio samples. Find someone who has it and ask them if it's good.

It still doesn't make theft legal.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: edro

Originally posted by: kranky
It wasn't that long ago that people justified stealing music by saying that $15 for a CD with one good song wasn't fair, and if they could only buy the songs they wanted for a buck, well, then they'd buy them instead of stealing. Nearly everyone was on that bandwagon.
Now that you CAN get them for a buck, somehow that's still too much money?
Oh, and now we don't want to pay ANYTHING unless we know exactly who gets how much of the money.

CDs are one of the only products you cannot return if you are not satisfied. If I hear of a new band, buy their CD for $17, and it sucks... that is pretty much gambling. If I buy any other product in a store and it sucks, I can return it.

CDs are basically legalized gambling.

If you are still paying $17 for a CD you need to find a new store.

There are plenty of ways to listen to a CD legally before purchasing it... most commonly on the band's own website. Amazon and similar sites commonly have audio samples. Find someone who has it and ask them if it's good.

It still doesn't make theft legal.

It's not theft. It's copyright infringement.

Copyright infringement does not equal theft, no matter how many times the RIAA and the IFPI tell you it does.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: waggy
well i guess that ends the argument over if it was legal or not eh?

There was never an 'argument', except among stupid tools determined to delude themselves. I've been saying it's illegal since these threads started.

And you have been wrong, as Gene Valgene details earlier in this thread. The IFPI stating that something is illegal does not mean that it is illegal.

Not even close. Determinations by Russian legal authorities are irrelevant here (in the U.S. - I can't speak for other jurisdictions).

Of course. And it would certainly be illegal to host such a site here in the US (and in a number of other countries). However, what is NOT determined is that it's illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and pay for their services.

You may consider it morally wrong, but you have not established that it's illegal.

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: waggy
well i guess that ends the argument over if it was legal or not eh?

There was never an 'argument', except among stupid tools determined to delude themselves. I've been saying it's illegal since these threads started.

And you have been wrong, as Gene Valgene details earlier in this thread. The IFPI stating that something is illegal does not mean that it is illegal.

Not even close. Determinations by Russian legal authorities are irrelevant here (in the U.S. - I can't speak for other jurisdictions).

Of course. And it would certainly be illegal to host such a site here in the US (and in a number of other countries). However, what is NOT determined is that it's illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and pay for their services.

You may consider it morally wrong, but you have not established that it's illegal.

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

For a moment let's assume the site is in fact legally hosted in Russia (as Gene Valgene pointed out earlier). Prove the second part of the bolded statement. Prove that it is illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and download their music.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: waggy
well i guess that ends the argument over if it was legal or not eh?

There was never an 'argument', except among stupid tools determined to delude themselves. I've been saying it's illegal since these threads started.

And you have been wrong, as Gene Valgene details earlier in this thread. The IFPI stating that something is illegal does not mean that it is illegal.

Not even close. Determinations by Russian legal authorities are irrelevant here (in the U.S. - I can't speak for other jurisdictions).

Of course. And it would certainly be illegal to host such a site here in the US (and in a number of other countries). However, what is NOT determined is that it's illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and pay for their services.

You may consider it morally wrong, but you have not established that it's illegal.

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

For a moment let's assume the site is in fact legally hosted in Russia (as Gene Valgene pointed out earlier). Prove the second part of the bolded statement. Prove that it is illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and download their music.

Prove they have a license from the U.S. copyright holder (any U.S. copyright holder) to sell it to you. I've already told you I looked for such a license on their site, and found none. Maybe you'll have better luck?

 

[Adul]

I use it to regain HQ version of cds I have that are scratched to hell. Saves me the enocding time as well

 

[Pantoot]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

You may consider it morally wrong, but you have not established that it's illegal.

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

When I buy a used cd I am breaking the law? What if I sell it to someone else, did either of us break the law there? I don't have a licence to sell their works, do I need to get one?

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

For a moment let's assume the site is in fact legally hosted in Russia (as Gene Valgene pointed out earlier). Prove the second part of the bolded statement. Prove that it is illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and download their music.

Of course he can't, because US copyright specifically says that IS legal.

I believe there was a story in the news recently that said Russia DID try to prosecute them, but came to the conclusion that what they're doing is perfectly legal (albeit using a big loophole that will probably be closed eventually).

People who say they knew it was illegal as soon as they saw the prices don't understand that other countries have different copyright laws. I'm not an expert on Russian law, so I couldn't determine definitively if it was legal or illegal, but neither could the people who dismissed outright as illegal.

 

[ForumMaster]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Well, considering that Russia is practically run by the mafia....

 

[Udel]

I used allofmp3. To be honest, I thought it was great. I knew it wasn't legit but my ISP/college wouldn't be able to nail me for it and I could play dumb consumer. Also, you could get the best quality and it was very cheap!

 

[GeneValgene]

ok this is such a gray area...

do you know that it is LEGAL to purchase a LEGAL music CD from another country and bring it into the US for personal use? i am not saying this is the same as downloading an mp3 from AllofMp3.com, but some people argue that it is the same thing

however, it is ILLEGAL to purchase a PIRATED CD from another country, and bring it into the US for personal use.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Pantoot

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

You may consider it morally wrong, but you have not established that it's illegal.

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

When I buy a used cd I am breaking the law? What if I sell it to someone else, did either of us break the law there? I don't have a licence to sell their works, do I need to get one?

A legit CD is a license.

 

[Mayfriday0529]

Sure... great... today! The day that i was going finally try allofmp3 and now i have to think about the moral issues of being "illegal"

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

For a moment let's assume the site is in fact legally hosted in Russia (as Gene Valgene pointed out earlier). Prove the second part of the bolded statement. Prove that it is illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and download their music.

Of course he can't, because US copyright specifically says that IS legal.

Where?

I believe there was a story in the news recently that said Russia DID try to prosecute them, but came to the conclusion that what they're doing is perfectly legal (albeit using a big loophole that will probably be closed eventually).

Again, whatever the Russian gov't determines about U.S. law is irrelevant.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Mursilis

No, what's never been established is that this site has the artists' permission (a legal license) to sell thier works, so it's illegal until proven otherwise. I've been to that site and could find no evidence of a license valid in the U.S. As I've said many times, it may be legal under Russian law for residents of that country to buy thier music, but it's not for U.S. residents. I can't prove the absence of a legal license, other than to say I've never seen any evidence of one. Can you prove they have one? There's a reason that site is based overseas.

For a moment let's assume the site is in fact legally hosted in Russia (as Gene Valgene pointed out earlier). Prove the second part of the bolded statement. Prove that it is illegal for me to visit allofmp3.com and download their music.

Of course he can't, because US copyright specifically says that IS legal.

Where?

I believe there was a story in the news recently that said Russia DID try to prosecute them, but came to the conclusion that what they're doing is perfectly legal (albeit using a big loophole that will probably be closed eventually).

Again, whatever the Russian gov't determines about U.S. law is irrelevant.

At the same time, whatever the US gov't determines about Russian law is irrelevant in many cases (thoguh not all).

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: GeneValgene
ok this is such a gray area...

do you know that it is LEGAL to purchase a LEGAL music CD from another country and bring it into the US for personal use? i am not saying this is the same as downloading an mp3 from AllofMp3.com, but some people argue that it is the same thing

however, it is ILLEGAL to purchase a PIRATED CD from another country, and bring it into the US for personal use.

If you mean by "LEGAL" legal under U.S. law, you're right. Otherwise, you're not. Some countries just don't have copyright law, so it'd be legal in Country Y to make a 100 copies of Band X's latest CD and sell it on the streets of Country Y, paying nothing to Band X. It'd also be legal in Country Y for you to buy it. But if you then brought it back to the U.S., I'm fairly certain you'd have a copyright violation.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: Mursilis
Again, whatever the Russian gov't determines about U.S. law is irrelevant.

At the same time, whatever the US gov't determines about Russian law is irrelevant in many cases (thoguh not all).

Granted, but downloading to the U.S. is subjecting yourself to U.S. laws, not Russian laws, regardless of where you got the material from. It's certainly no defense to say you downloaded your kiddie porn from a country where it was legal (hopefully, no such country exists). You'll still go to jail if it's on your computer here in the U.S.

 

[DigDug]

Mursilis,

You keep pounding the same, obvious point - jurisdiction - but you are missing Astaroth's point, which is that propriety under our laws, as written, is dependent upon the legality of the product under the host country's laws.

Astaroth seems to be well-versed on the laws, and his question to you was framed to illustrate the above point.

 

[GeneValgene]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: GeneValgene
ok this is such a gray area...

do you know that it is LEGAL to purchase a LEGAL music CD from another country and bring it into the US for personal use? i am not saying this is the same as downloading an mp3 from AllofMp3.com, but some people argue that it is the same thing

however, it is ILLEGAL to purchase a PIRATED CD from another country, and bring it into the US for personal use.

If you mean by "LEGAL" legal under U.S. law, you're right. Otherwise, you're not. Some countries just don't have copyright law, so it'd be legal in Country Y to make a 100 copies of Band X's latest CD and sell it on the streets of Country Y, paying nothing to Band X. It'd also be legal in Country Y for you to buy it. But if you then brought it back to the U.S., I'm fairly certain you'd have a copyright violation.

Title 17 Chapter 6 Sec. 602 of the U.S. Code

Importation into the United States, without the authority of the owner of copyright under this title, of copies or phonorecords of a work that have been acquired outside the United States is an infringement of the exclusive right to distribute copies or phonorecords under section 106, actionable under section 501.

This subsection does not apply to importation, for the private use of the importer and not for distribution, by any person with respect to no more than one copy or phonorecord of any one work at any one time, or by any person arriving from outside the United States with respect to copies or phonorecords forming part of such person's personal baggage

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: DigDug
Mursilis,

You keep pounding the same, obvious point - jurisdiction - but you are missing Astaroth's point, which is that propriety under our laws, as written, is dependent upon the legality of the product under the host country's laws.

Prove it.

Astaroth seems to be well-versed on the laws, and his question to you was framed to illustrate the above point.

Well-versed? According to you, maybe.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: GeneValgene

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: GeneValgene
ok this is such a gray area...

do you know that it is LEGAL to purchase a LEGAL music CD from another country and bring it into the US for personal use? i am not saying this is the same as downloading an mp3 from AllofMp3.com, but some people argue that it is the same thing

however, it is ILLEGAL to purchase a PIRATED CD from another country, and bring it into the US for personal use.

If you mean by "LEGAL" legal under U.S. law, you're right. Otherwise, you're not. Some countries just don't have copyright law, so it'd be legal in Country Y to make a 100 copies of Band X's latest CD and sell it on the streets of Country Y, paying nothing to Band X. It'd also be legal in Country Y for you to buy it. But if you then brought it back to the U.S., I'm fairly certain you'd have a copyright violation.

Title 17 Chapter 6 Sec. 602 of the U.S. Code

Importation into the United States, without the authority of the owner of copyright under this title, of copies or phonorecords of a work that have been acquired outside the United States is an infringement of the exclusive right to distribute copies or phonorecords under section 106, actionable under section 501.

This subsection does not apply to importation, for the private use of the importer and not for distribution, by any person with respect to no more than one copy or phonorecord of any one work at any one time, or by any person arriving from outside the United States with respect to copies or phonorecords forming part of such person's personal baggage

Good rebuttal, so it seems my hypothetical was incorrect. Still, I don't know if that applies to downloads.

EDIT: But then, part (b) of the same Code section states:

(b) In a case where the making of the copies or phonorecords would have constituted an infringement of copyright if this title had been applicable, their importation is prohibited. In a case where the copies or phonorecords were lawfully made, the United States Customs Service has no authority to prevent their importation unless the provisions of section 601 are applicable. In either case, the Secretary of the Treasury is authorized to prescribe, by regulation, a procedure under which any person claiming an interest in the copyright in a particular work may, upon payment of a specified fee, be entitled to notification by the Customs Service of the importation of articles that appear to be copies or phonorecords of the work.

So my hypothetical isn't necessarily incorrect.

 

[drinkmorejava]

dang, i guess i'll just be stuck with napster trials then and removing the DRM.