Alpha PAL8045 + XP2000 = 70C !!!

[orpheusx]

I just put together my second box though I'm something of a newbie and it's the first time I've had to install a heat sink.

A friend's Volcano7 keeps his slightly overclocked XP2100 in the low 50C range at idle so I expected to do at least as well temperature-wise and much better noise-wise when I invested in a PAL8045/Panaflo L1A combo.

Well, it's quiet anyway...

This is a brand new Abit NV7-133R with an XP2000 and two sticks of Crucial 512MB PC2100. I'm getting temps of 66C within 10 minutes of POST with the box just sitting in BIOS doing nothing. I'd think the thermistor was faulty but the amount of heat coming off the fan is significantly hotter than what I'd felt from my friend's 2100/Volcano7 setup (which frankly didn't even feel warm.) Restarting after installing Linux?this was before I realized how hot the CPU was running?the BIOS reported CPU temperature of 69-70C. In both cases, the motherboard was installed in an open case, no fans, no panels, in a well air-conditioned room (~75F) sitting on top of a desk. The system temperature in all cases is substantially lower, 43C, so I assume the lack of fans is okay at least for testing purposes.

I installed the Alpha twice, Originally I used a very thin layer of Arctic Silver III and turned each of the heatsink's four screws, a bit at a time, until the springs were fully compressed and the screws stopped turning. I did observe a slight tilt (very slight) from left to right and from front to back but figured that it would be okay since all four screws were fully engaged. The PCB of the motherboard isn't perfectly flat after all so there must be some tolerance, I reasoned. The second time worked maniacally hard to make sure that there was no tilt at all in either direction. I also put down a somewhat thicker layer of AS3 to compensate for any bias I couldn't see. Sadly, it doesn't seem to have made any difference.
So is there a trick to installing the Alpha? A setting in the BIOS I need to change? (Apart from setting the FSB to 133MHz the board has all the default settings.) Have I got a bad CPU?

Thanks in advance for any comments, questions or advice...

 

[blade]

That's a bit too warm, especially with that heatsink.

I'm not sure how accurate the onboard senor is on that abit mobo but very few are very accurate. Only way to be sure of your real system temp is place a sensor under the cpu or one touching the actual core.


*edit darn enter button made this post before I was ready. grrr


How is your system and room temp? That also has an effect on cpu temp. Try a very thin-even layer of thermal compound and be sure the heatsink is even on the cpu. Having too much on one side could mean a cracked core.

 

[IQJUMPuw]

Hey

You should be getting alot better temperature with that heatsink.

I myself can't stand the loud noise, so I use a quite 80mm fan and I get around 47-56C when my case temperature is about 38C. (It's pretty hot in my room)

Make sure it's perfectly balanced. You don't wanna have it tilted. Also, there might be something wrong with your motherboard sensor if you did everything right. What kind of temperature do you get when you play games? Does it crash? You are supposed to get really warm air blowing out from your fan. That's perfectly normal. If your room is 75F (which is really cool if ya ask me), your case temperature should be alot lower than 43C. I don't know much about Abit motherboards, but they might report higher temperatures. Giga Byte motherboards do that also. I have to subract about 10C from the actual CPU temperature that it reports.

Well I hope you find out what's wrong with it. Good luck!

 

[mechBgon]

What's the CPU voltage showing in the BIOS? That's about the only way you'd get the 2000+ to actually generate more heat than it's supposed to.

From the situation described, though, it sounds like maybe there is poor thermal transfer from CPU to heatsink. Here are some possible causes to look into:

• I had a look at Newegg for a photo of the board (link) and it looks like this board would take the washers with the flange. The flange should sit down into the mobo holes, and if it doesn't fit, you'd use the flat plastic washers against the mobo instead.
  
• If the flange got hung up on the PCB and was jacking up one or more of the aluminum standoffs, that would account for the unevenness. If your board takes the flanged washers, double-check to make sure the flanges are indeed down into the holes and the standoffs are fully snugged down (sorry if that is too obvious to merit suggesting).
  
• On each of the four springbolts, you'd want to put on two flat plastic washers, then the spring, then another flat washer, and then put that through the heatsink into the standoffs. This ensures the springs get compressed enough to overcome the cornerpads on the CPU.
  
• The PAL 8045 is a directional heatsink, so you'd want to make sure it's not 180 degrees backwards, too. Otherwise it may get jacked up on an obstruction, such as the solid end of the CPU socket, and prevent square contact with the CPU core.

I guess it bears mentioning that comparing CPU temperatures from one brand/model of board to another is like comparing Fords and Chevys. The same CPU/heatsink/voltage could result in readings with a spread of over 15C depending upon the brand/model of motherboard. If the air going into the heatsink is really 43C, that probably has a lot to do with it too... see if you can get readings closer to ~60C by opening the case and aiming a fan in the side, so the case temperature is below 30C.

 

[SWScorch]

Also, make sure that the heatsink itself is not coming into contact with any component on the motherboard. It doesn't look like it should be, from looking at the photo on NewEgg, but I had the same problem as you when I first got my 8045, and it turned out that the corner of the heatsink was resting on the DIMM slot. I actually had to take a file and file down the DIMM slot in order for the heatsink to sit flush against the CPU.

As Mech said, triple check the washers. That's also another big problem with the 8045.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: SWScorch
Also, make sure that the heatsink itself is not coming into contact with any component on the motherboard.

Well the thing with that is what orpheusx said:
"I'd think the thermistor was faulty but the amount of heat coming off the fan is significantly hotter than what I'd felt from my friend's 2100/Volcano7 setup (which frankly didn't even feel warm.) "

If the air coming off the heatsink is very warm, that means that the heat is being trasferred from the processor to the heatsink.

The system temperature in all cases is substantially lower, 43C

That's your case temp? Are there any case fans in your system? My CPU temp is 40C right now!

 

[orpheusx]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
What's the CPU voltage showing in the BIOS? That's about the only way you'd get the 2000+ to actually generate more heat than it's supposed to.

CPU Core Voltage is 1.72V. That sound right?

From the situation described, though, it sounds like maybe there is poor thermal transfer from CPU to heatsink. Here are some possible causes to look into:

• I had a look at Newegg for a photo of the board (link) and it looks like this board would take the washers with the flange. The flange should sit down into the mobo holes, and if it doesn't fit, you'd use the flat plastic washers against the mobo instead.
  
• If the flange got hung up on the PCB and was jacking up one or more of the aluminum standoffs, that would account for the unevenness. If your board takes the flanged washers, double-check to make sure the flanges are indeed down into the holes and the standoffs are fully snugged down (sorry if that is too obvious to merit suggesting).

• 
  Nope, nothing at this point seems obvious to me anymore. I think both the flange and the standoffs are level but I'll double check tonight...
  
  
  

  [*]On each of the four springbolts, you'd want to put on two flat plastic washers, then the spring, then another flat washer, and then put that through the heatsink into the standoffs. This ensures the springs get compressed enough to overcome the cornerpads on the CPU.

  The first time I installed I only used a single washer above the spring. Second time I put on two since the little instruction sheet that Alpha includes suggested it.
  
  
  

  [*]The PAL 8045 is a directional heatsink, so you'd want to make sure it's not 180 degrees backwards, too. Otherwise it may get jacked up on an obstruction, such as the solid end of the CPU socket, and prevent square contact with the CPU core.

On the NV7-133R (and maybe most nforce boards) there's only one way the PAL 8045 _can_ fit which originally came as a bit of a relief. There's not enough room for it to fit turned 180 degrees. As it is the "tail" end of the sink faces the top of the case. It's not in contact with any part of the mobo except the socket it's sitting on.

I guess it bears mentioning that comparing CPU temperatures from one brand/model of board to another is like comparing Fords and Chevys. The same CPU/heatsink/voltage could result in readings with a spread of over 15C depending upon the brand/model of motherboard. If the air going into the heatsink is really 43C, that probably has a lot to do with it too... see if you can get readings closer to ~60C by opening the case and aiming a fan in the side, so the case temperature is below 30C.

Following your suggestion I ran a little experiment this morning and plugged in the 80mm fan mounted on the case's top blow hole (blowing into the case) then pointed a window fan (the kind with 4 inch blades that you use to move air through the house) and stuck against the side of the case, both sides of which are open. It took a little while on an already running system but the CPU temp got to 51C while the system temp wouldn't go below 30C. Then I thought to reverse the direction so the big fan was sucking out instead of blowing in. In the ten seconds it took me to get the fan turned around the system temps shot up to 36C and stayed there even after I put the fan in place (sucking out). The system temp sensor is positioned right at the corner of the cpu socket. Not sure if this the standard placement or not but the heatsink is right above it...

Picking up on what IQJUMPuw and Jeff7 said or alluded to: how warm should the air coming off the hsf be? Was my friend's Volcano7 performing badly because the air wasn't warm? He swears his cpu temps are in the low 50's.

It sounds like, short of the core voltage being wrong or my having screwed up the flange/standoffs (which I will check) that I'm looking at having to take another whack at mounting the heatsink. Anyone in the Boston area care to show me how it's done?

Thanks for all the thought and consideration you've given the problem.

 

[IQJUMPuw]

Okay

I'm little bit confused. -_-;

Do you have your heatsink fan blowing in or blowing out? You are supposed to have it blowing out with your Alpha PAL8045. Volcano 7 works differently... Their heatsinks blow in the cool air and that's why your friend couldn't feel warm air. It's sucking in the cool air, so the warm air should be coming out from the side. Your Alpha PAL8045, however, sucks in the warm air from the heatsink and blows it out. (If you installed the fan correctly). So you'll feel ALOT more warm air, but those heated air gets sucked in by your case fans. That's how it works. I tried doing it the other way yesterday. I switched the fan around so it was actually blowing in the air into my heatsink and it raised the CPU temp by 2C and case temp rose by 4C.

70C is definitely not normal. What kind of temp do you get after playing games? Does it ever lock up?

 

[mechBgon]

Thanks for the detailed response, and from what you've said, it sounds like it might simply be that the heatsink is inhaling air that's already hot. I have a Radio Shack digital thermometer and tomorrow I will get you a reading on the exhaust temperature off my Alpha/L1A combo from my 1700+. My case has a pair of exhaust fans right by the CPU (not counting the PSU fans) so it keeps the heatsink from recirculating its own hot exhaust, and I think this is key to good cooling: keeping a strong draft in the area of the CPU.

 

[Cosmo3]

Try using 3 washers on each spring, that seems to help alot and I doubt if that is enough fan for that fast of a cpu you may have to get a higher cfm fan I used a YS Tech 48.5 cfm fan on mine and it worked great and didn't make that much noise.

 

[orpheusx]

Originally posted by: IQJUMPuw
Okay

I'm little bit confused. -_-;

Do you have your heatsink fan blowing in or blowing out? You are supposed to have it blowing out with your Alpha PAL8045. Volcano 7 works differently... Their heatsinks blow in the cool air and that's why your friend couldn't feel warm air. It's sucking in the cool air, so the warm air should be coming out from the side. Your Alpha PAL8045, however, sucks in the warm air from the heatsink and blows it out. (If you installed the fan correctly). So you'll feel ALOT more warm air, but those heated air gets sucked in by your case fans. That's how it works. I tried doing it the other way yesterday. I switched the fan around so it was actually blowing in the air into my heatsink and it raised the CPU temp by 2C and case temp rose by 4C.

70C is definitely not normal. What kind of temp do you get after playing games? Does it ever lock up?

Aha! I hadn't realized the Volcano 7's fan blew the other way. That would explain it. Thanks for pointing that out. I have my Panaflo pulling air off the Alpha not blowing onto it.

As to games, I've only installed Linux but it never locked up while I was doing lots of large compiles (a few million lines of Java code). AT the moment, I don't have any utilities that talk to the Winbond chip. The 70C was observed following a reboot right after running a bunch of unit tests that are pretty cpu intensive. I realize this is still kind of a rough estimate...

 

[orpheusx]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Thanks for the detailed response, and from what you've said, it sounds like it might simply be that the heatsink is inhaling air that's already hot. I have a Radio Shack digital thermometer and tomorrow I will get you a reading on the exhaust temperature off my Alpha/L1A combo from my 1700+. My case has a pair of exhaust fans right by the CPU (not counting the PSU fans) so it keeps the heatsink from recirculating its own hot exhaust, and I think this is key to good cooling: keeping a strong draft in the area of the CPU.

Thanks mech but don't let me waste too much of your time. It'll be interesting to know how hot the exhaust is... Man, I would be _so_ glad if this simply turned out to be a lack of proper venting.

Currently my case (a cheap Enermax CS-501) has two fans, a top mounted blowhole and a side panel blowhole. Both are setup to draw air into the case. I just tried putting the side panel on and connecting its fan--previously the panel was removed completely--and got the same bad results. I think the side panel fan is problematic since it seems like its probably competing with the cpu fan (they're blowing in opposite directions and are pointed almost directly at each other). I think I'll just unplug it and go pick up a couple of decent exhaust fans as I've been meaning to do. I had thought leaving the case open would be enough :-(. Any recommendations?

By the way, I checked the nylon shoulder washers (what the Alpha install guide calls the flanges). They and the standoffs appear to be sitting correctly.

 

[IQJUMPuw]

How many intake/outakes fans do you have? How loud are they? What kind of power supply? does the power supply have dual fans? Is your heatsink clean? (Dust free)

Sounds to me that you have everything installed correctly. I'm still not sure as to what kind of program you are using to monitor your temperatures. I use MBM5, which tells me the same temperature as my BIOS. If you are sure you installed your heatsink correctly, and it still reports 70C as a CPU temp and 43C case temp (while your room is only 75F), then I'm guessing your temp sensor is incorrect. Your temps should be alot lower. I'm not so familiar with your motherboard, so I honestly don't know, but I think your motherboard sensor is reporting the wrong temp...

So if you run games/3Dmark2001 and it doesn't lock up or anything, you should be fine. I'm using 28.3dBa 80mm fan on top of my pal8045 by the way. Reasonably quite.

Well good luck to you my friend.

 

[WarCon]

I think you should have your top mounted fan suck air out of the case. Heat rises so that would be the natural fan to draw air out. And if you can, move that side mount fan to the front of your case to blow air in so it doesn't disturb the flow of air for the processor. You should try and keep your intake and exhaust balanced so you don't end up with dead spots (no air flow).

If your intake fan is more powerful than your exhaust fans then you could add another fan to your side mount to draw air out of your case.

 

[orpheusx]

Well I installed a pair of 80mm Enermax adjustable fans (1000-3000rpm) and set them up to exhaust out the back of the case. Temps are stable. Sitting in the BIOS after a good half an hour I've got the CPU at 59C and SYSTEM reporting 41C. Both blow hole fans are running, too, sucking air in. The room is a little hotter, probably closer to 80F. The box is quite loud and still hotter than it should be. I'm really annoyed...

A few observation of note:

1. the CPU temp stays the same whether I've got the exhaust fans cranked or at their lowest setting and with or without the side blow hole fan running at all.
2. there's _no way_ the temp inside the case is 105F. Not even close. I think the SYSTEM temp is almost meaningless. Dunno if other motherboards are like this but the sensor for SYSTEM on this Abit is at the corner of the cpu socket which, in my case, means its under the thermal shadow of that massive heatsink. With all the fans running there's a nice movement of air, much warmer directly over the HSF but otherwise only a little warmer than outside the case. I'm very tempted to pick up a thermometer and investigate this further.

My current options (other opinions welcome!):

1. take Cosmo3's advice and replace the Panaflo with something faster.
2. keep working on improving airflow and install a big 112mm fan in the front of the case
3. forget about it and let the cpu cook itself, figuring that by the time it goes out there'll something better/cheaper/faster to replace it with.

Whattya think?

 

[IQJUMPuw]

My suggestion, there's no need for a 112mm fan.

You have 2 intake fans and 1 outake fan? You have to balance them. Get another outake fan.

Also, I think the temp sensors on your motherboard are really bad. Forget about those temp... If the temps are wrong, your CPU temps are actually running much cooler. You can check this by running multiple leeps of 3Dmark or games to see if it ever locks up. If your system is stable, you are perfectly fine.

 

[orpheusx]

Originally posted by: IQJUMPuw
My suggestion, there's no need for a 112mm fan.

You have 2 intake fans and 1 outake fan? You have to balance them. Get another outake fan.

Also, I think the temp sensors on your motherboard are really bad. Forget about those temp... If the temps are wrong, your CPU temps are actually running much cooler. You can check this by running multiple leeps of 3Dmark or games to see if it ever locks up. If your system is stable, you are perfectly fine.

Actually, as of this morning, I have two intakes (top and side blow holes) and two exhausts (in the back under the PSU.)

You may be right and I ultimately may have to take your advice. But in the meantime I've bought a 120mm (why was I thinking 112mm?) adjustable intake fan for the front and a new cpu fan which I hope moves more air than
the Panaflo.

I'll let you know what I discover...

 

[IQJUMPuw]

Dude

I think I know why your case temp is so high. You need 2 intake fans in the front and the one on the top should be blowing out the air not in... Hot air rises to top. You are actually trying to push in more air from the top, thus hot air gets trapped in your case. So if you set this up correctly, you'll have a very nice air flow going on.

2 intakes in the front, another one on the side
2 exhausts on the back, another one on the top.

Also, what kind of power supply do you have? I have an Enermax 350W and it has dual fans. It's on top of my case, which works an extra exhaust fan. So all the warm air released from the CPU gets sucked in by the power supply fan and the 2 exhausts fans on the back of my case.

Make sure nothing in your case is blocking the air coming. Try to get round cables tie all the cables together.

 

[orpheusx]

Phew!

Just wanted to let folks know that I've finally got my CPU temps down to where they ought to be. This morning, having exchanged the Panaflo L1A with a faster and somewhat louder CoolerMaster fan that moves about 33% more CFM and adding a front mounted 120mm fan pulling air into the case, I got the CPU down to 51C after 30 minutes idling in the BIOS PC Health screen. Not sure which of the two actions has more to do with it but I can investigate that later at my leisure. Of note, the room temps were easily in the low 80sF.

IQJUMPuw, I do plan to take your advice about reversing the direction of the top mounted blowhole. Would have done it first thing except the fan is secured with these funky sort of inverted philips head screws. Certainly have it vent hot air rising to the top of the case makes tons of sense. Thanks.

Thanks to everyone who replied. You all reallly helped me through this.

P.S. with the CPU at 51C the SYSTEM temp _still_ reports 49C which makes me pretty sure that the proximity of the massive Alpha is skewing its accuracy. I'm borrowing a friends thermometer kit so I'll have an idea of what's really happening soon enough.