Alternative 9/11 History

[Brovane]

Alternative 9/11 Historyhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14753927/site/newsweek/


So sad the oppurtunities to really fight terrorists was squandered after 9/11 by the Bush Administration. It is depressing to read about what could of been.

 

[Todd33]

It's not even funny, almost makes you want to cry reading this...

 

[KlokWyze]

WTF? Why are you posting this absurd ******?

What politician doesn't do what he says he was going to do after he is elected? Look @ every president since the turn of the century. Democratic or republican, it doesn't matter. Politicians in the US are greedy liars, if you don't understand this you are part of the problem.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The author exists in fantasyland...the alternate reality sequence of events he outlined are a fairly high bar to set for any President, let alone Bush.

I do agree with his conclusion...that leadership counts, and Bush has failed to demonstrate leadership on numerous occasions.

Otherwise, its another Monday morning quarterback thread.

 

[Brovane]

The author exists in fantasyland...the alternate reality sequence of events he outlined are a fairly high bar to set for any President, let alone Bush.

The key part that got me was the Goodwill squandered the Bush administration after 9/11. Between the secret prisons and tribunals and then Iraqi the Goodwill with the Muslim world was squandered away.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Sad, indeed...

 

[Starbuck1975]

The key part that got me was the Goodwill squandered the Bush administration after 9/11. Between the secret prisons and tribunals and then Iraqi the Goodwill with the Muslim world was squandered away.

The squandering of goodwill assumes that there was goodwill to being with.

We didn't have much goodwill with the Muslim world to begin with...or have we forgotton the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, Libya, decades of support to Israel, Somalia, & the Gulf War...the Muslim world hated American back when Bush was still doing keg stands with his fraternity brothers.

 

[Pens1566]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

The key part that got me was the Goodwill squandered the Bush administration after 9/11. Between the secret prisons and tribunals and then Iraqi the Goodwill with the Muslim world was squandered away.

The squandering of goodwill assumes that there was goodwill to being with.

We didn't have much goodwill with the Muslim world to begin with...or have we forgotton the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, Libya, decades of support to Israel, Somalia, & the Gulf War...the Muslim world hated American back when Bush was still doing keg stands with his fraternity brothers.

True, but now he's made it even worse.

 

[dahunan]

At least Ashcroft (who was defeated in an election by a dead man) was able to heed the warnings about bin laden using airliners as missiles (the report Condi Rice lied to America about) and took alternative flights to save himself so he could then make sure to spread his Radical Fundamentalist views and cover up breasts on a statue.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

The key part that got me was the Goodwill squandered the Bush administration after 9/11. Between the secret prisons and tribunals and then Iraqi the Goodwill with the Muslim world was squandered away.

The squandering of goodwill assumes that there was goodwill to being with.

We didn't have much goodwill with the Muslim world to begin with...or have we forgotton the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, Libya, decades of support to Israel, Somalia, & the Gulf War...the Muslim world hated American back when Bush was still doing keg stands with his fraternity brothers.

HUH? Gulf One was a Goodwill builder for many nations..

Pre-Emptive attacks on nations who didn't even fund bin laden or his conspirators will destroy all goodwill ever ever created.. Personally.. I really wish every leader who voted to kill Iraqis would also be given the same treatment .. some shock and awe on their families

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The author exists in fantasyland...the alternate reality sequence of events he outlined are a fairly high bar to set for any President, let alone Bush.

I do agree with his conclusion...that leadership counts, and Bush has failed to demonstrate leadership on numerous occasions.

Otherwise, its another Monday morning quarterback thread.

I disagree with your leadership comment.
Just because you do not agree with the decisions that Bush has made that doesn't mean he is not showing good "leadership" skills.

Here is a decent list of leadership skills:
http://www.askmen.com/money/successful_100/116_success.html
Now look at Bush, does he show many of these traits?
1- Vision-"focus on the big picture" & "be ambitious" As he saw it Iraq was part of war on terrror and by getting rid of Saddam we would start a process of remaking the middle east. So a Yes to this one
2- Confidence "know yourself" "be decisive" "control stress" and "accept criticism" This one is hard for us to judge via TV, but Bush does come across as being decisive, he does not have a tendency to waver, unlike Bill Clinton.
3- People skills "listen" "be flexible" "be supportive" Another hard one to judge via TV. He is known as a nice guy though, and even people who disagree with him have talked about being able to get along with him etc. Let's face it, you don't get to be president without having great people skills. Clinton had amazing people skills, especially with the women
4- Motivational skills "Encourage people " "Celebrate success" "Back your staff" "Help out" I think we see this skill in Bush. He encourages people, post 9-11 speaches, celebrates success, the mission acomplished speach. He certainly backs his staff, otherwise he would have ditched Rove in the middle of the Plame afair.
5- Responsibility "Accept blame" Bush did just that with Katrina, stood right up and said "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government and to the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility,"
6- Integrity "do the right thing" "be honest" I think Bush has a high level of integrity. Name for me one time that Bush said something that he knew was total false when he said ala Clinton and the "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewensky" statement.

As I said, just because you don't agree with what Bush is doing that does not mean he does not "demonstrate leadership"
If you disagree with me post some of these "occasions"

 

[Pens1566]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The author exists in fantasyland...the alternate reality sequence of events he outlined are a fairly high bar to set for any President, let alone Bush.

I do agree with his conclusion...that leadership counts, and Bush has failed to demonstrate leadership on numerous occasions.

Otherwise, its another Monday morning quarterback thread.

I disagree with your leadership comment.
Just because you do not agree with the decisions that Bush has made that doesn't mean he is not showing good "leadership" skills.

Here is a decent list of leadership skills:
http://www.askmen.com/money/successful_100/116_success.html
Now look at Bush, does he show many of these traits?
1- Vision-"focus on the big picture" & "be ambitious" As he saw it Iraq was part of war on terrror and by getting rid of Saddam we would start a process of remaking the middle east. So a Yes to this one
2- Confidence "know yourself" "be decisive" "control stress" and "accept criticism" This one is hard for us to judge via TV, but Bush does come across as being decisive, he does not have a tendency to waver, unlike Bill Clinton.
3- People skills "listen" "be flexible" "be supportive" Another hard one to judge via TV. He is known as a nice guy though, and even people who disagree with him have talked about being able to get along with him etc. Let's face it, you don't get to be president without having great people skills. Clinton had amazing people skills, especially with the women
4- Motivational skills "Encourage people " "Celebrate success" "Back your staff" "Help out" I think we see this skill in Bush. He encourages people, post 9-11 speaches, celebrates success, the mission acomplished speach. He certainly backs his staff, otherwise he would have ditched Rove in the middle of the Plame afair.
5- Responsibility "Accept blame" Bush did just that with Katrina, stood right up and said "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government and to the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility,"
6- Integrity "do the right thing" "be honest" I think Bush has a high level of integrity. Name for me one time that Bush said something that he knew was total false when he said ala Clinton and the "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewensky" statement.

As I said, just because you don't agree with what Bush is doing that does not mean he does not "demonstrate leadership"
If you disagree with me post some of these "occasions"

1- He's losing the public on this one since a majority don't see Iraq as part of the war on terra

3- He doesn't listen to anyone that tells him something he doesn't want to hear.

5 & 6 are just a joke. Responsibility and Integrity??? Accepting responsibility for katrina isn't the same as doing something to fix the problem, which he hasn't done. Integrity, how about not misleading the public time and time again for starters.

 

[Todd33]

ProfJohn, our new resident Zentroll/Riprorin replacement? Talk about a team player, he sounds like he wants Tony Snow's job.

 

[ProfJohn]

Just read the article, talk about a liberal fantasy land:

He took John McCain's suggestion and pushed through Congress an ambitious national-service program that bolstered communities and helped train citizens as first responders.

He bluntly told Detroit that it was embarrassing that Chinese automakers had better fuel efficiency, he classified SUVs as cars, and he imposed a stiff gas tax with a rebate for the working poor.

So we need more social spending and programs for the "working poor"
BTW: How stiff should the gas tax have been? The price of gas is a dollar higher now than a couple of years ago, but people are still driving nearly the same. If the goal is to raise the price of gas tilll people stop driving how high would you have to go? Also, higher gas taxes hurt the poor FAR FAR more than the better off. This "gas tax rebate" would not be much help, send me a check to help pay for my gas a few months after I spent the money, meanwhile I am eating Ramon noodles everynight.

Because Bush believes diplomacy requires talking to adversaries as well as friends, even Syria and Iraq were forced to help. By staying "humble," as he promised in 2000, he preserved much of the post-9/11 good feeling abroad, which paid dividends when it came time to pull together a coalition to handle North Korea and Iran.

Another liberal fantasy. We invaded Syrias neighbor and ally and they still refuse to help, even supporting the insurgency in Iraq, however, if we had just said "please" they would have jumped right on the band wagon and helped us.
New for your Alter, we have a coalition with both North Korea and Iran, and it isn't doing any good. Iran says "screw you" to the UN in regards to its nuke plans and the UN says, maybe we should talk some more. And with North Korea, we tried five nation talks (China, Japan, Russia, North Korea, and US) and Korea's response is "we only want to talk to the US"

I wonder does Alter think Roosevelt should have talked to Japan and Germany more, if only Roosevelt had been humble World War 2 could have been stopped.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Todd33
ProfJohn, our new resident Zentroll/Riprorin replacement? Talk about a team player, he sounds like he wants Tony Snow's job.

Hey you got to admit it would be a lot of fun to tell Helen Thomas to sit down and shut up.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Pens1566
1- He's losing the public on this one since a majority don't see Iraq as part of the war on terra

3- He doesn't listen to anyone that tells him something he doesn't want to hear.

5 & 6 are just a joke. Responsibility and Integrity??? Accepting responsibility for katrina isn't the same as doing something to fix the problem, which he hasn't done. Integrity, how about not misleading the public time and time again for starters.

1. FDR wanted to go to war with Germany, the majority of the public did not want anything to do with another war in Europe, was FDR wrong or right?

2. Is that a proven fact, or a story told be people who have nothing to do with what is said inside the White House? Please post for me something that "proves" that Bush does not listen to anyone that tells him something he doesn't want to hear.
The right told Bill Clinton tons of things they thought he should have done, Clinton didn't listen, does that mean Clinton "doesn't listen to anyone that tells him something he doesn't want to hear" ???

3. You are assuming that there is a magic wand that the president can wave to solve all of our governments problems. Let's face it, there are a lot of things the government will never be very good at and all the work and ideas in the world won't change this.
"Integrity, how about not misleading the public time and time again for starters" is it misleading when the President says something that he believes to be true?
Show me an example of Bush "misleading" the public by saying something that he did not believe to be true.

For all of you who think I am "on the team"
I do not think Bush is a prefect president and am not happy with a lot of things he does. I think we are spending WAY to much money and home and I think the border shouid be secured first, then we can talk about what to do with all the illegals already here.
However, I do agree with his policies in the war on terror. I do think long term the world is better off without Saddm. I do think we need to change the face of the middle east if we want long lasting peace.
I also accept the fact that Iraq is a TOTAL mess, however I do not see anyone else coming up with a workable solution. Leaving Iraq would be a HUGE mistake, essentially giving the terrorist a chance to claim victory over us, and we can not do that.
Did you know that after Russia was driven from Afganistan Osama and friends started to believe that since they could beat the Soviets they could also beat us? Our lack of response, or weak response, to every terror attack until 9-11 just reenforced that idea. They believe that all they have to do is kill enough Americans and we will go home, just look at the reaction on the left to see how right they are. If we give up on Iraq the terrorist will come after us someplace else again and again untill they are attacking us on our own soil again. We have no choice but to stay in Iraq and win the war on terror.

If you do not agree with me post a logical arguement explaining why we should withdraw from Iraq and how doing so will help us win the war on terror.

 

[Pens1566]

1. It's moot since Germany declared war on us as a result of our declaration of war on Japan following PH. Nice parrotting of the "appeasers" party line. Not on the team, ha!
2. See O'Neill, Paul & Powell, Colin & Clarke, Richard
3. Just because he believes it to be true doesn't change the facts. Belief /= facts


As for your "post a logical arguement explaining why we should withdraw from Iraq and how doing so will help us win the war on terror" challenge, the 2 are not related. Except one is keeping us from winning the other. You figure out which one is which.

 

[Starbuck1975]

HUH? Gulf One was a Goodwill builder for many nations..

I was talking about goodwill among the Muslim world...while we may have established goodwill internationally for our handling of that conflict, many in the Muslim world perceive that struggle as otherwise...we essentially protected the Saudis and Kuwaitis from Iraqi aggression, yet most of the suicide bombers of 9/11 were Saudi...goodwill???

As I said, just because you don't agree with what Bush is doing that does not mean he does not "demonstrate leadership"
If you disagree with me post some of these "occasions"

Given the nature of your post, I think you are playing devil's advocate to emote a response, or are trolling for the sake of it. If you truly believe the things you posted, then we have nothing to discuss.

 

[WiseOldDude]

and just as sad is the fact there are still millions of people that worship this fvcking idiot and see him as a minor god. These are the people that enable this bastard to continue, and I consider them traitors to this country, in addition to the criminal(s) in the Whitehouse.

 

[martinez]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Did you know that after Russia was driven from Afganistan Osama and friends started to believe that since they could beat the Soviets they could also beat us? Our lack of response, or weak response, to every terror attack until 9-11 just reenforced that idea. They believe that all they have to do is kill enough Americans and we will go home, just look at the reaction on the left to see how right they are. If we give up on Iraq the terrorist will come after us someplace else again and again untill they are attacking us on our own soil again. We have no choice but to stay in Iraq and win the war on terror.

If you do not agree with me post a logical arguement explaining why we should withdraw from Iraq and how doing so will help us win the war on terror.

No point trying to be logical with someone who thinks the war on terror is winnable. The more you wage war on terror the more terror you encourage and commit. Rational people don't have the will to kill that these terrorists have, which is why they think they can overcome the odds. They cannot prevail, but they cannot be completely defeated, because terrorism is like the mythological Hydra. You cut off one head 2 more grow in its place. Calling it a war gives them too much credibility anyway. They are thugs, criminals and should be treated as such. Investigated both before and after the acts.

Colonialism, Imperialism, Hegemony call it whatever, the U.S needs to try to foster FAIR free trade if it wants both peace and security as the sole superpower. In history, the mighty have always fallen, often times the revolution is precipitated by the most tyrannical aspects of their reign(in the minds of the oppressed), followed by a weakening of the oppression, which gives the oppressed the confidence to succeed. So in that aspect you're right about Iraq, to cut and run would have disastrous consequences, that may mean an end to the American way of life as it's known, within half a century or less.

America always holds itself up as the beacon of freedom and the protector of civilization, what happens when that beacon starts to dim as is happening now. These are interesting times, and decisions made in the next few years will have a huge impact on Americas' role in the world.