Am I crazy for Founders Edition?

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know of fence

Senior member
May 28, 2009
555
2
71
No, it's logically sound. Reference cards (whatever they are labeled) do push heat out of the case. Are you saying they don't?

That's what marketing spin is: surface level "logic".

I tried to give an in depth explanation how it helps to separate the noisy fan from the exhaust fan, but you chose to ignore it.

Another perhaps more obvious thing is that AIB-Coolers use 2 or 3 fans and heatpipes, to distribute the heat load.

A third in depth thing is is a fundamental difference of radiator fans and case fans. Case fans move air, while radiator fans move hot air away from the radiator. Crank up the cooler fan for a huge T difference, crank up case fans and there won't be a difference to speak of.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
That's what marketing spin is: surface level "logic".

I tried to give an in depth explanation how it helps to separate the noisy fan from the exhaust fan, but you chose to ignore it.

I didn't ignore it, I was contesting that the assumptions behind it (aka a large case with a lot of airflow) are always in place. You assume someone wants to dedicate space to proper cooling, when the PC building trend since 2013 is "how small can I make this gaming box?" Sacrifices must be made to hit that goal.

In my Fractal Node 304 mini ITX rig it doesn't matter how many fans the GPU has. The distance from the fans to the side of the case is less than half an inch, so the fans push out the air only for it to stay put in pretty much the exact same proximity as the GPU. And there is no sort of real airflow in that part of the case from case fans, which means you are basically just cooking the GPU in its own heat. Without a blower model pushing the air out the back it basically is an oven.

I watched as my otherwise excellently cooled EVGA 970 couldn't overclock at all in that case when in my regular ATX rig I could get it to 1450 easily. Open air cards do a great job cooling off the card, but that only matters if the heat has anywhere to go. The only difference in that situation between three fans and two is with a larger gpu HSF its actually WORSE in a Mini ITX rig because there is no way for case fan air to flow around the long card. It's a completely different ballgame in such a case than in a regular ATX one, and those are the types of compromises companies like HP make every single time for aesthetically pleasing final products. Hence reference models are blowers.

In the case of OP, the optimal situation would have been for him to build a real Unraid server out of another machine and NEVER expose his media hard drives to GPU heat. Gaming boxes + mediaservers often = dead hard drives for that reason. Seeing how he already made a suboptimal decision for how to store his media, the best choice for the GPU is another suboptimal decision to get a blower that won't subject the hard drives to any of the GPU heat even if it's just what the case fan is blowing by on its way out the case. He admits the airflow is poor, which means its a closer situation to my Mini ITX rig (or your average HP gaming box) than the ATX rigs everyone here uses and takes for granted.

I will fully admit in a regular case and in optimal situations there is no benefit to a blower card. In fact its a detriment for the reasons you list.
 

doggyfromplanetwoof

Senior member
Feb 7, 2005
532
0
0
I didn't ignore it, I was contesting that the assumptions behind it (aka a large case with a lot of airflow) are always in place. You assume someone wants to dedicate space to proper cooling, when the PC building trend since 2013 is "how small can I make this gaming box?" Sacrifices must be made to hit that goal.

In my Fractal Node 304 mini ITX rig it doesn't matter how many fans the GPU has. The distance from the fans to the side of the case is less than half an inch, so the fans push out the air only for it to stay put in pretty much the exact same proximity as the GPU. And there is no sort of real airflow in that part of the case from case fans, which means you are basically just cooking the GPU in its own heat. Without a blower model pushing the air out the back it basically is an oven.

I watched as my otherwise excellently cooled EVGA 970 couldn't overclock at all in that case when in my regular ATX rig I could get it to 1450 easily. Open air cards do a great job cooling off the card, but that only matters if the heat has anywhere to go. The only difference in that situation between three fans and two is with a larger gpu HSF its actually WORSE in a Mini ITX rig because there is no way for case fan air to flow around the long card. It's a completely different ballgame in such a case than in a regular ATX one, and those are the types of compromises companies like HP make every single time for aesthetically pleasing final products. Hence reference models are blowers.

In the case of OP, the optimal situation would have been for him to build a real Unraid server out of another machine and NEVER expose his media hard drives to GPU heat. Gaming boxes + mediaservers often = dead hard drives for that reason. Seeing how he already made a suboptimal decision for how to store his media, the best choice for the GPU is another suboptimal decision to get a blower that won't subject the hard drives to any of the GPU heat even if it's just what the case fan is blowing by on its way out the case. He admits the airflow is poor, which means its a closer situation to my Mini ITX rig (or your average HP gaming box) than the ATX rigs everyone here uses and takes for granted.

I will fully admit in a regular case and in optimal situations there is no benefit to a blower card. In fact its a detriment for the reasons you list.

Very insightful, thank you for that read.

Yes, I made a strange decision to have one box that does it all, and I know I could split them in two, but for some strange reason it seems an all in one box is just idea. Jack of all trades type.

With CPUs becoming less depending on energy and adding more cores to solve the speed issues, it seems all them cores will just go to waste and it will be benefit if they could be used for something. I know main stream is still 4c/8t, and I do have a HEDT 8c/16t, but the future is more cores. AMD ZEN is around the corner with 8c/16t and more, Intel next mainstream after canon lake will be 6c/12t as well.

and with DirectX 12 it seems the trend is that lower mhz cpus with more cores are better than higher mhz with less cores. And it is just the beginning with DX12/Vulkan and as well as the future of VR taking off, more and more cores will be needed. I really don't see using multiple boxes in a single home to get things done anymore.

But that is just me, I rather have one large, fast desktop, with laptops, tablets, and cell phones. Besides me, no one else sits at a desk all dau and types on a PC. Damn kids are all touch screen base now days.

One thing I would like to say I guess between a blower / AIB or AIO watercool is most people do it because for overclocking. The fact these cards don't overclock well and use double the power just to achieve a 10% over clocking is kinda silly. Once we get HBM2 things will be better, less power, more head room for memory bandwidth. Today's GPU chips are insanely fast, but seems like the API/Developers/OS is the limiting factor in getting things up to par, not a 10% overclocking.

And I agree with you, Small ITX gaming builds are awesome, or a all-in-one like mine. That is the trend going. I doubt we will see manny more full size ATX gaming builds in the future.
 
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boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
you are crazy, but if you are crazy happy, who cares?

you are already winning at life.
 

know of fence

Senior member
May 28, 2009
555
2
71
I bought a similar "shoe box" form factor called NSK 1380 back in the day when Antec was all the rage. Suffice it to say, not making that mistake again. It even came with a power supply and its own supplemental blower cooler!

If air flow is a problem then maybe it's time to solve the problem at the root, get a tower nothing flashy, or big. Or just put a whole in the hopefully well insulated wall, and run the fans at full bore from the adjacent room.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Wow. True. And I have seen other charts that makes a 1070 o'clock close to a 1080FE.

I don't care about water cooling, in fact I rather have fans. But I have a all in one box with multiple hard drives and my mother board is full of cards. The air flow is very low. I run this computer 24/7 so I do want cool components and heat dumping in a case is a big deal when inside my case every square inch has some form of obstruction.

So I like the fact the fe does blow hot air out, but with performance being close to a 1070oc and makes me want to push for an aio 1080 cooler. But than again it could be months/weeks before I get one. It seems I am at a crossroads as of late.

I did something similar. Bought a Titan X the minute it was announced. I lived with that cooler mostly because the machine was in another room and I used an HDMI over Cat5 extension. I had that fan on 100% and O/C to close to 1500Mhz. It was great. Then when VR came out and I needed to put the machine in the same room the noise was ridiculous.

So I got the eVGA hybrid cooler and couldn't be happier. I even BIOS flashed it to take more O/C and it does go a bit higher and runs cooler and quieter. Very quiet and very cool. Having the blower cooler to start is great because the VRMs are still cooled by the fan which you can set to whatever speed you like but just the GPU chip is cooled by the waterblock.

The only downside is cost. +$100 for FE cooler and +$100 for hybrid cooler.
 

doggyfromplanetwoof

Senior member
Feb 7, 2005
532
0
0
I did something similar. Bought a Titan X the minute it was announced. I lived with that cooler mostly because the machine was in another room and I used an HDMI over Cat5 extension. I had that fan on 100% and O/C to close to 1500Mhz. It was great. Then when VR came out and I needed to put the machine in the same room the noise was ridiculous.

So I got the eVGA hybrid cooler and couldn't be happier. I even BIOS flashed it to take more O/C and it does go a bit higher and runs cooler and quieter. Very quiet and very cool. Having the blower cooler to start is great because the VRMs are still cooled by the fan which you can set to whatever speed you like but just the GPU chip is cooled by the waterblock.

The only downside is cost. +$100 for FE cooler and +$100 for hybrid cooler.

Yes good idea, I do see EVGA has an AIO for sale right now for the 1080 and 1070. I do like Hybrid coolers.
 

doggyfromplanetwoof

Senior member
Feb 7, 2005
532
0
0
http://www.microcenter.com/product/466267/GeForce_GTX_1070_SEA-HAWK_X_8GB_GDDR5_PCIe_Video_Card

Check this one out. AIO 1070 MSI Seahawk, will save you some money over 1080FE, and may be you could possibly dump this on ebay once the 1080ti comes.


note: no need to thank me, i accept cash rewards

note2: on a serious note, i hope this helps.

Yes very nice, too bad I live no where close to a microcenter. I HATE IT!

And yes good point on getting a 1070, ebaying it and getting a TRUE 4k card since I do run a 4k monitor and I love 4k gaming, but want a single card.

Thanks anyways,, good deal for anyone who lives near a MC.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Yes good idea, I do see EVGA has an AIO for sale right now for the 1080 and 1070. I do like Hybrid coolers.

Honestly now that the new Titan X has been announced, in your shoes, I would return the heck out of it. Then wait just 2 weeks. Then get the hybrid cooler for that.
 

garagisti

Senior member
Aug 7, 2007
592
7
81
Honestly now that the new Titan X has been announced, in your shoes, I would return the heck out of it. Then wait just 2 weeks. Then get the hybrid cooler for that.
At any rate it seems a bit pointless to have a 1080FE for about $700. I doubt that the prices will come down till introduction of Vega/ 1080ti, so it's better to go for the 1070 hybrid, if he can and will order it off of webstore. It will cut his losses on resale/ upgrade to a minimum, and if he must buy Nvidia only, then 1080ti in another 6-9 months or so will keep him happy for a few months, even at 4k resolutions.

In the same timeframe Vega should be out too, and hopefully prices will settle down a bit too. Plus, with HBM2, Vega may turn out to be a decent option too, given he likes fiddling about at 4k.
 

doggyfromplanetwoof

Senior member
Feb 7, 2005
532
0
0
At any rate it seems a bit pointless to have a 1080FE for about $700. I doubt that the prices will come down till introduction of Vega/ 1080ti, so it's better to go for the 1070 hybrid, if he can and will order it off of webstore. It will cut his losses on resale/ upgrade to a minimum, and if he must buy Nvidia only, then 1080ti in another 6-9 months or so will keep him happy for a few months, even at 4k resolutions.

In the same timeframe Vega should be out too, and hopefully prices will settle down a bit too. Plus, with HBM2, Vega may turn out to be a decent option too, given he likes fiddling about at 4k.

Yes it does. I need a GPU, but for some reason it seems like a bad time to buy any GPU, it seems pascal will have a limited run.
 

omeds

Senior member
Dec 14, 2011
646
13
81
I prefer reference too OP, for a few reasons. I've also owned a number of custom and reference designs of the same model and tbh I always find the advantages of custom boards to be far over stated. I always seem to manage decent overclocks on par with most custom designs, and never really find them too loud in comparison. At least on the Nv side of things, AMD has some pretty poor reference designs.

FE tax is certainly BS though. It should be the cheapest option (or close to). In light of that I couldn't recommend a FE over custom board.
 
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tigersty1e

Golden Member
Dec 13, 2004
1,963
0
76
nvidia tax on top of nvidia tax.

what new strategy will they come up with to put another nvidia tax on top of the nvidia tax that is on top of the nvidia tax?
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,407
1,305
136
The only compelling reasons in my view for blower coolers are crappy airflow designed itx cases (like the node 304*) and some one who is going straight to custom water cooling blocks. I've had too many noisy experiences with blower or single fan units to want to go back to it. If you have a decent cooling setup with your case fans, the cards are not dumping that much heat that isn't blown in. Even in cases where I've had only one 120mm intake fan, the system never got too hot because of a dual fan setup.


* I don't totally hate the node 304 but I've ended up with two of them sitting in their boxes because they're not great for htpc, itx gaming or serious NAS boxes like many promoted.
 

doggyfromplanetwoof

Senior member
Feb 7, 2005
532
0
0
The only compelling reasons in my view for blower coolers are crappy airflow designed itx cases (like the node 304*) and some one who is going straight to custom water cooling blocks. I've had too many noisy experiences with blower or single fan units to want to go back to it. If you have a decent cooling setup with your case fans, the cards are not dumping that much heat that isn't blown in. Even in cases where I've had only one 120mm intake fan, the system never got too hot because of a dual fan setup.


* I don't totally hate the node 304 but I've ended up with two of them sitting in their boxes because they're not great for htpc, itx gaming or serious NAS boxes like many promoted.

Dumping heat in the case is a concern to me because I host multiple data drives and want to keep in case heat down to 0 or low
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
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To clarify, at around 225W and under, blowers do a good job for the noise. It's only beyond that (big GPU or OC) that they start to get very noisy. Certainly above comfortable levels, but it's subjective, if gamers use headphones, it makes no difference to them.

Low power GPUs, certainly a premium blower is the best design.
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,407
1,305
136
Dumping heat in the case is a concern to me because I host multiple data drives and want to keep in case heat down to 0 or low

Temps get that high? I don't think my ssds (27-30C usually) or hdd go above 34C in a fractal arc midi. Two 140mm intakes blowing over them. I have them spaced out though.
 

Nhirlathothep

Senior member
Aug 23, 2014
478
2
46
www.youtube.com
FE are the best cards ever designed in the planet atm.

it s obvious to pay extra price and to want em.

many uninformed pple are going to tell you the opposite, just ignore em.
obviously they re all great engineers, and more competent in gpu design





edit:

(Apply the same rule to AMD's cooling solution, they think it s bad and they claim they re waiting for custom designs. they re just uninformed.
Nvidia and AMD with thier own coolers are going to give you the best possible air cooling. Do you think that in MSI-Asus-Sapphire... there are better engineers than AMD/NVIDIA ? no)
 
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