am i supposed to be able to see mod forums?

[arcenite]

Dang and I was prepping for my 10k

LoKe can you change my post count to 9,999? Thx.

 

[DrPizza]

I'll just leave this here.

- LoKe's final contribution to this forum. It's sad to see that one person can bring something from being a fun place to hang out and shoot the shit, to a place where you have to proof-read every post to make sure you're not about to unknowingly offend someone.

I'm not sure why you bothered posting those two screen captures. Unless, you're trying to keep up the pace of one vacation per 100 posts in this thread. Nonetheless, since they're out in the open, and no doubt being discussed on one or the other of the tfnn clones, I'll respond to them. Perknose revealed several reasons that Red Dawn probably should have been removed from being a moderator in the past.

However, the main problem was with a thread made by Prof John, and a subsequent thread made by Red Dawn. Ultimately, Red Dawn, and the rest of the current Admins, including Perknose, resolved the incident rather amicably. Prof John had lied, and it was finally demonstrated to Red Dawn that he had lied. Red Dawn, the member, had been fed some misinformation from Prof John.

Red Dawn was upset that a Prof John thread was moved to the moderator discussions forum where only Prof John and the moderators could see the discussion - Red Dawn was upset over the lack of perceived transparency. His thread was also moved. The reason was that the PJ thread was little more than an public spectacle attempt to attack the moderators, based on lies about what was said, and lies about why he had been vacationed from the forums. It's probably worth noting that the issue was resolved rather amicably in the moderator discussions forum, as far as I know, Red was not vacationed, and Red still has his elite title. What you viewed was a post by someone who was really pissed off about someone else's post - and did not expect that anyone other than the other admins was going to be viewing that post.

 

[shiner]

Learn to read. The moderators never stated that such a personal file/dossier/hitlist was against their own rule system, simply that it was not mandated or anything followed by all members.

EDIT: That, and it appears he was never sanctioned, at least as the posts would want it. He is still an Elite Member last I checked.

Actually they have. It has been said several times that disciplinary actions are based on member's posts and the notes in the notes area of their profile.

The accusations against Red did not grow from something contained in the notes area of his profile. How could is seeing as how it is admitted there are screenshots of the alleged issues? Therefore they came from outside of the forum notes area and outside of posts that were searched by mods. By coming from an outside source they should not be considered for discussion, yet there you have it, they were brought into the discussion of sanctions.

That is an abuse of power.

Whether or not sanctions were handed down is immaterial. The fact that items outside of the accepted methods for determining discipline was brought into a disciplinary discussion is an abuse.

 

[erikistired]

It is, to me, much the same as Nixon secretly recording things in the Oval Office and keeping an enemies list. Simply put it is an abuse of power and should be an unacceptable practice by those chosen to administer the forums.

and this is where reality left shiner far, far behind.

 

[Alone]

I'm not sure why you bothered posting those two screen captures. Unless, you're trying to keep up the pace of one vacation per 100 posts in this thread.

Is there a reason why I should expect to be banned? They've been floating around for a while. Also, Perknose took the liberty to post private correspondence, so why is it that I can't?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Dang, I got to get to bed. Try not to reach critical mass before tomorrow, m'kay?

 

[brianmanahan]

i think we need artificial intelligence moderation, that way it can be completely object and impartial

we can build it!

 

[busydude]

Having read this thread in its entirety, I have come to the conclusion that Nick is deeply in love with Mosh.

I don't understand the need for Nick to send vile PMs to Idontcare. IMO, IDC is an extremely cool headed and a fair moderator. I have utmost respect for him.

 

[MotF Bane]

Dang, I got to get to bed. Try not to reach critical mass before tomorrow, m'kay?

Same here.

 

[zinfamous]

i think we need artificial intelligence moderation, that way it can be completely object and impartial

we can build it!

so...put you in charge?

:hmm:

 

[shiner]

i think we need artificial intelligence moderation, that way it can be completely object and impartial

we can build it!

What if it becomes self aware and starts scooping up all the Hot Deals before we humans even have a chance to see them?

 

[busydude]

Also, Perknose took the liberty to post private correspondence, so why is it that I can't?

Did you post those grabs with Perk's consent?

 

[rcpratt]

Having read this thread in its entirety, I have come to the conclusion that Nick is deeply in love with Mosh.

I don't understand the need for Nick to send vile PMs to Idontcare. IMO, IDC is an extremely cool headed and a fair moderator. I have utmost respect for him.

That's nothing new if you've been paying any sort of attention.

 

[esquared]

I was speaking hypothetically. You and EagleKeeper mentioned that there is a process public amongst mods to ensure that moderation is not arbitrary, so personal wrongs in the past can not be cited as reason for moderator action without others approving. Since others clearly wouldn't, any moderator or administrator attempting to ban by individual decree would have to circumvent the system.

Yes, there is a system in place. Simple vacations based on multiple violations are often turned into simple 1,3 7 day vacations. Now I am talking about things like minor personal attacks, profanity in the tech forums, threadcrapping in FS/T. Nothing egregious. These do not require mod group meetings to vacation members.

There are three levels of mods and we ask that anything over a week for reg mods or two weeks for supermods be discussed with higher ups. We just want to make sure that there are no over zealous mods out there trying to keep the peace. We do try to err on the side of caution. Myself, I find if I am not 100% sure, I will ask the counsel of another admin if my reasoning for a vacation or even an infraction is correct.

Sometimes I too, can be a knucklehead.

We also try to train along the same lines. I would rather the mod take the time to ask me BEFORE they mete out punishment if they aren't sure.

Now addressing your other point:
It would be hard for another mod to ban without another mod/admin seeing it. There's no way to circumvent the system. I would be able to see it, even as a permaban. There are moderator logs.

And permabans do not ever happen without admin discussion. The only case would be returning banned members and trolls from FS/T. The mods, usually admins, would just ban the returning member and then make a thread of what he/she did in the mod area. We have many checks and balances to ensure no one starts blasting without a very good reason.

I frequently look at the list of actively vacationed members and if there is someone I may not recognize I will look at that member and see what he did. I've questioned bans before and I have also been questioned myself.

Now the list of vacationed members is short. Mostly 8-10 at any one time.

Today has been different. There are 16 in the ban/vacation area of which 8 were done between yesterday and today. Six of them directly related to this issue and thread so you see it's actually not a very active place. For those today, I am responsible. But I did so with plenty of warning.

 

[Alone]

Did you post those grabs with Perk's consent?

They were already made publicly available by Red.

 

[brianmanahan]

so...put you in charge?

:hmm:

i know my artificial intelligence programming, more than you might think

ive dabbled shall we say

 

[brianmanahan]

What if it becomes self aware and starts scooping up all the Hot Deals before we humans even have a chance to see them?

... we will add a 4th law

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Actually they have. It has been said several times that disciplinary actions are based on member's posts and the notes in the notes area of their profile.

The accusations against Red did not grow from something contained in the notes area of his profile. How could is seeing as how it is admitted there are screenshots of the alleged issues? Therefore they came from outside of the forum notes area and outside of posts that were searched by mods. By coming from an outside source they should not be considered for discussion, yet there you have it, they were brought into the discussion of sanctions.

That is an abuse of power.

Whether or not sanctions were handed down is immaterial. The fact that items outside of the accepted methods for determining discipline was brought into a disciplinary discussion is an abuse.

Actually no. I'll post them again.

A Moderator may keep notes; just like a user can keep notes on a Moderator that they feel is out to get them.

Any evidence that a Moderator needs to justify actions IS OBTAINED via searches of posts.

IF a decision is to be made, it is based on the posts that any person can dredge up, not just a Moderator.

A Moderator may provide posts that they feel are required to justify a request for action to the rest of the Moderators.

Multiple times; requests have been denied because of the posts content is not considered to be worth the consequence and/or the required information is dated and the member seems to have shaped up and become a productive AT citizen.

You are confusing us with another forum. As I said, no dossiers.

There are notes on people but every member has the notes box. Some people who have had no infractions have zero notes. The ones who have had infractions have info based on that infraction. The more infractions, the more notes. More infractions turn to vacations.
We have to document all that we do when giving out infraction/vacations.

This way no mod can get away with just banning or vacationing people. It's all documented

How do you think we know how long to give a recidivist member a vacation without knowing the history of his notes

Just ask any former mod. He she will confirm everything I have just written

Now if that is what you call dossiers..............

Notes/documentation are not necessarily kept in the infraction area, in the context of what EagleKeeper and esquared were talking about. And who gives a shit where it's kept?

 

[TecHNooB]

goodnite atot!

 

[SparkyJJO]

Oh snap.

 

[Locut0s]

6th sense? Dood...it's been well documented here that you have NO sense...


For all those bitching about the reading of PM's by the admins...do you use email at your place of employment? Those aren't "private" in the strictest sense either. Like PM's here, they may be "private" in that they shouldn't be accessible by your co-workers or other forum members, they are easily accessible by your employer...or in this case, by the forum administrators.

Don't like that? Find a different means of communication.

 

[lxskllr]

And that's the issue isn't it? Discussion is fine but there was a clear conflict of interest. From the tone it sounded personal. At that point, one should hand over the evidence and remove oneself from the decision making... just as you would not want the father of a slain child to be part of the jury.

I dunno. Perk can get a little wound up with stuff, but isn't that what the discussion's for? It only becomes a problem when personal feelings are acted on. If arbitrary bans are happening, I'm 100% against that, but as long as the ban is done with fairness, and consensus, the process is working.

Advocacy one way or the other isn't a problem. That's how things get done. I say Perk's a dick, you say he isn't, and we provide evidence. The rest of the staff adds input, and the truth is found. It can be an issue if some staff has veto power, or bullies others into submission, but I can't say if that's happening one way or the other. Based solely on what I've seen in this thread, the process works.

 

[busydude]

That's nothing new if you've been paying any sort of attention.

Sadly I haven't. My real life takes up most of my time.

 

[Infohawk]

Red Dawn was upset over the lack of perceived transparency.

So far everything Red Dawn and the other rebel moderators have complained about seems to to be completely legitimate.

 

[brblx]

i don't understand how perknose hating red dawn is an issue. i mean, i don't know the guy, but a quick search revealed that red dawn likes two and a half men.

hate justified.