Amazon dropping 10,000 affiliates in California

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masterxfob

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
7,366
3
81
it's not amazon that's creating the california deficit, nor is it amazon that's killing california businesses; it's the tax. sales tax in california is ridiculous. taxes for business owners in california is absurd. i'm fairly certain that the majority of small businesses, are trading services and/or are not reporting cash transactions.

here's a snip from a conversation i had with a friend (sorry, this might be more fitting in p&n) :

Taxes only benefit one individual: the politician who promises them in exchange for the votes of those who want "benefits", which have to be paid for by someone else. There is no such thing as "public money". The State's only source of revenue is to confiscate what someone else has already earned. Once they take all of that savings & property, there's nothing left to distribute to those they've promised all their "benefits". The extent to which this nonsense advances is inherent in the Class Warfare rhetoric, which liberals invoke ad infinitum. The Liberal/Socialist politician always wants people to believe SOMEONE ELSE will "pay". But that "someone else" is always - us. Either we produce and get punished, or we end up expecting the "benefits" which no longer exist to be gotten. Once no one is producing anymore, there are no productive results (money, assets, property) left for the Redistributionist to redistribute to those he's promised redistribution. Raising Taxes on those who produce really is as simple as killing the Golden Goose. That's what's happening in Europe now. The Socialists have killed their own Golden Geese, so their only recourse is to beg other nation's Golden Geese to keep the Eggs of Gold coming. It aint brain surgery to understand how all Socialism fails. It has to; it's failure is inexorable to its nature.
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,458
2
0
Originally Posted by Naustica View Post
Amazon would lose 99% of my business if I had to pay sales tax. Amazon doesnt have the lowest price most of the time but because of the sales tax savings they're usually cheaper than local B&M.

this.... i get a lot of used stuff from amazon and skip over the ones in california..... 10% right off the top for me.


by the way how are they determining who pays the tax? is it where the item will be shipped or what? I'm trying to get a gift for my grandma in california...taxed? or is it where i am when i place the transaction? proxy server ftw?
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,528
5,943
136
In other words, four of the five largest states in the country (California, Texas, NY and Illinois). That's fairly substantial; roughly one third of the US population is living in a state where Amazon refuses to maintain a physical presence to avoid taxes. As the larger states go, so do the smaller ones tend to follow. And it's not even a blue state thing, with Texas and SC in there.

But if the people support Amazon's right to not pay taxes, well, then I guess Amazon will keep laughing all the way to the bank and passing those charges onto the consumer.
For S.C., it's about jobs that we desperately need and, like I posted, we(the state) still net $1B over 5 years.

Ours is a distribution center/not sales point.
 
Jul 12, 2001
10,142
2
0
In other words, four of the five largest states in the country (California, Texas, NY and Illinois). That's fairly substantial; roughly one third of the US population is living in a state where Amazon refuses to maintain a physical presence to avoid taxes. As the larger states go, so do the smaller ones tend to follow. And it's not even a blue state thing, with Texas and SC in there.

But if the people support Amazon's right to not pay taxes, well, then I guess Amazon will keep laughing all the way to the bank and passing those charges onto the consumer.

In no way does this have any effect on Amazon though, except moving their business out of CA...it does cause CA to lose money though. We have the highest unemployment and our plan to fix it is to scare more companies out? I understand the principle that the people should pay sales tax, but this seems to be a bad time to make a law that wont cause increase in sales tax and will cause a decrease of money to the state
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,338
11,707
136
I am having great luck: I have successfully voted against all new taxes, fees and the like, for years.

MotionMan

I also vote against such things...but that doesn't keep me from having to pay them...

hell, I don't have kids in school...and they never went to the schools in this district...I should be exempt from paying school bond taxes and levies.
 

Illusio

Golden Member
Nov 28, 1999
1,448
0
76
Amazon isn't even paying the taxes though. They would just be the collection entity that remits taxes to the state. They would merely have to pay the small cost of hiring some company to figure out all the tax rates (just like any B&M business does).

Figuring out the tax rate is only a small part of the problem (which is a pain). I'm an artist and I do local art fairs in the summer. I have to pay sales tax based on what I've sold to a pile of different counties. My business is really small and it takes me an hour or 2 to fill out all the paperwork and figure everything out when it's time to file.

Amazon would have to do this times about a million, and every 3 months. (at least).
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,338
11,707
136
Figuring out the tax rate is only a small part of the problem (which is a pain). I'm an artist and I do local art fairs in the summer. I have to pay sales tax based on what I've sold to a pile of different counties. My business is really small and it takes me an hour or 2 to fill out all the paperwork and figure everything out when it's time to file.

Amazon would have to do this times about a million, and every 3 months. (at least).

So what? Newegg and a bazillion other e-tailers who have a physical presence in the state already do this. Remember, Newegg doesn't have actual B&M stores, just their headquarters and warehouse/distribution facilities are here...yet they collect CA sales taxes as well as sales taxes for the many other states where they have a physical presence...but no actual retail outlets.

Is it an inconvenience for the retailers? Sure, but it's also deductible as part of the cost of doing business.
 

MotionMan

Lifer
Jan 11, 2006
17,312
12
81
I also vote against such things...but that doesn't keep me from having to pay them...

hell, I don't have kids in school...and they never went to the schools in this district...I should be exempt from paying school bond taxes and levies.

I have no problem paying taxes in general, even for things I do not, have not or no longer will use. And there will always be waste in government spending. I just hate all the overt, avoidable and purposeful waste that seems so prevalent nowadays.

MotionMan
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
In no way does this have any effect on Amazon though, except moving their business out of CA...it does cause CA to lose money though. We have the highest unemployment and our plan to fix it is to scare more companies out? I understand the principle that the people should pay sales tax, but this seems to be a bad time to make a law that wont cause increase in sales tax and will cause a decrease of money to the state
Who do you blame, the politicians who enacted measures to bring more tax revenue into the state from companies doing business there, or the company that fled the state when the new tax code was enacted? It sounds like you blame the politicians. But you shouldn't. You SHOULD be angry that Amazon feels it has a right to do business in California without paying a shred of tax to the state for the privilege. You SHOULD be angry that Amazon is willing to completely remove its presence from the state (at the expense of many jobs) because it feels entitled to make millions or billions of dollars in untaxed profit. You shouldn't defend corporate greed against your own interests.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,338
11,707
136
I have no problem paying taxes in general, even for things I do not, have not or no longer will use. And there will always be waste in government spending. I just hate all the overt, avoidable and purposeful waste that seems so prevalent nowadays.

MotionMan

Yeah, waste in government is always going to be a problem...and there's no easy solution for it. A BIG part of the problem is that different people define "waste in government" in different ways...often based on their political affiliation.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
So, California thinks adding this sales tax will bring in $200 million...except that Amazon clearly isn't going to allow that to happen.

So not only will California not get that $200 million that it rosily estimates, but it will also lose a good chunk of goodwill with the business community and residents...and oh yeah, California collected $124 million in income tax from Amazon affiliates in 2009. They can say bye bye to that too.
 
Jul 12, 2001
10,142
2
0
Who do you blame, the politicians who enacted measures to bring more tax revenue into the state from companies doing business there, or the company that fled the state when the new tax code was enacted? It sounds like you blame the politicians. But you shouldn't. You SHOULD be angry that Amazon feels it has a right to do business in California without paying a shred of tax to the state for the privilege. You SHOULD be angry that Amazon is willing to completely remove its presence from the state (at the expense of many jobs) because it feels entitled to make millions or billions of dollars in untaxed profit. You shouldn't defend corporate greed against your own interests.

Lets see a bill that causes a large corporation to do nothing illegal and to leave and costs thousands of jobs and gains no money, yes that is a great bill the politicians are doing a great job.

again in principle i totally agree, but in practicality it doesnt work that way. Did they think amazon would stay out of being nice? I cant imagine any company staying, when given the option, lose clients or move to another state
 

abaez

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
7,158
1
81
Who do you blame, the politicians who enacted measures to bring more tax revenue into the state from companies doing business there, or the company that fled the state when the new tax code was enacted? It sounds like you blame the politicians. But you shouldn't. You SHOULD be angry that Amazon feels it has a right to do business in California without paying a shred of tax to the state for the privilege. You SHOULD be angry that Amazon is willing to completely remove its presence from the state (at the expense of many jobs) because it feels entitled to make millions or billions of dollars in untaxed profit. You shouldn't defend corporate greed against your own interests.

Amazon has no physical presence in the state. The Supreme Court ruled that without a physical presence, states cannot collect sales tax.

Amazon does let people in California use its website to sell stuff, and if Amazon doesn't want that anymore then it's well within their right to do it.
 
May 13, 2009
12,333
612
126
Is there a rule in the govt like in baseball where the commissioner can take control of a baseball team in the best interest of baseball if a team can no longer run itself? I think Cali is at that point.
 

chuckywang

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
20,139
1
0
Amazon would lose 99% of my business if I had to pay sales tax. Amazon doesnt have the lowest price most of the time but because of the sales tax savings they're usually cheaper than local B&M.

?? Amazon is cheaper than most B&M's for, I'd say, 90% of things even without counting sales tax.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
Amazon has no physical presence in the state. The Supreme Court ruled that without a physical presence, states cannot collect sales tax.

Amazon does let people in California use its website to sell stuff, and if Amazon doesn't want that anymore then it's well within their right to do it.
I would say this constitutes physical presense in California.

http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/
Multiple Locations – Amazon EC2 provides the ability to place instances in multiple locations. Amazon EC2 locations are composed of Regions and Availability Zones. Availability Zones are distinct locations that are engineered to be insulated from failures in other Availability Zones and provide inexpensive, low latency network connectivity to other Availability Zones in the same Region. By launching instances in separate Availability Zones, you can protect your applications from failure of a single location. Regions consist of one or more Availability Zones, are geographically dispersed, and will be in separate geographic areas or countries. The Amazon EC2 Service Level Agreement commitment is 99.95% availability for each Amazon EC2 Region. Amazon EC2 is currently available in five regions: US East (Northern Virginia), US West (Northern California), EU (Ireland), Asia Pacific (Singapore), and Asia Pacific (Tokyo).
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,802
29,553
146
You really have to wonder just how much the states have lost in tax revenues due to the rise of online shopping. It has to be a lot so I have a hard time getting too upset over them trying to enforce something that I had no problem paying with in my purchases 15 years ago. It probably also presents a big burden on B&M. Not only do they have to deal with the fact that Amazon can get huge discounts from volume and shipping but they can also undercut a good couple of percent due to taxes alone. Makes a difference when it comes to shopping on big ticket items.

exactly. Amazon can bitch and moan all they want, but their advantage in sales has been exploiting a loophole that essentially defrauds the states of buckets of revenue.

Of course, it depends on the institution.

I actually do a lot of shopping for work through Amazon--I work in a research lab, and various bits of equipment (field collecting (media and food preparation (regular old cooking supplies) are much easier and astronomically cheaper to purchased through Amazon than the various lab supply companies that mark everything up about 200%.

As these purchases are made through UC, using a regular old Visa PCard tied to grant money, everything has to be accounted for. Most suppliers, sales tax is already included, of course. For Amazon purchases, though. the department has to collect all of those orders and go back and calculate sales tax on each individual purchase at the end of every year and then submit them. ...glad I don't have to do that.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
So, California thinks adding this sales tax will bring in $200 million...except that Amazon clearly isn't going to allow that to happen.

So not only will California not get that $200 million that it rosily estimates, but it will also lose a good chunk of goodwill with the business community and residents...and oh yeah, California collected $124 million in income tax from Amazon affiliates in 2009. They can say bye bye to that too.
It's only temporary though. Soon Amazon will run out of places to hide and will have to agree to start charging a sales tax. And once Amazon capitulates, everyone else will fall into line and stop playing these silly shell games.

But there's really no way to make this happen at all once, hence CA has to make the change now even though Amazon won't be collecting sales taxes yet.
 

abaez

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
7,158
1
81
I would say this constitutes physical presense in California.

http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/

I'm sure Amazon pays any sort of taxes they are required to for that part of their business. You can be sure that Amazon has structured this particular business entity separately from the main amazon.com business.

Whether or not that is a loophole and legal or illegal is probably up to the courts and/or the laws on the books.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,802
29,553
146
I also vote against such things...but that doesn't keep me from having to pay them...

hell, I don't have kids in school...and they never went to the schools in this district...I should be exempt from paying school bond taxes and levies.

that kind of thing doesn't bother me, at all. Educating the kids benefits the community as a whole. Everyone should take up that responsibility.

I find those kind of taxes a necessary contribution to be a member of modern society.
 
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