AMD 2600+ REVIEW Still not #1!

[SSXeon5]

Originally posted by: Boonesmi
SSXeon5 refering to toms review you said it showed "the P4 2.53GHz wooped up on the 2600+"

im not sure how you figure that... looking through the pages of benchmarks there are several the P4 takes the top mark and several the athlon kicks butt on

if anything the article at toms is saying that the athlon is back in the running with the P4 (meaning neither the p4 nor the athlon "wooped up on the" other)

Hmm read what I said before:

Originally posted by: SSXeon5

With the launch of its Athlon XP 2600+, AMD has provided a big surprise: at the last minute, and without warning, the new CPU with the Thoroughbred "B" core landed at the THG lab in Munich. Compared to its predecessor, the Thoroughbred "A," this one shows above all that a significantly higher clock rate (this top model now runs at 2133 MHz) automatically means greater speed. In the benchmark tests, the Athlon XP 2600+ manages to surpass the Intel Pentium 4/2533 once more, but not in all disciplines.

Hmm the 2600+ only toped the 2.53Ghz in:

- 3D Mark 2000
- Lame 3.93 MP3 encoding
- Sandra CPU/Multimedia
- PCMark CPU bench
- Cinema 4D XL 7.303
- SPEC Viewperf 7 (3 out of the 5)

All of thease also were very marginal, i really dont see how tom got this conclusion, dont flame me but this is a Intel Fanboy asking a question: Are thease really realworld? Does someone go pay $250 on a XP to just run benchies? In 5 days you can grab a 2.26GHz P4 for ~$190, or a 2.53GHz for ~$240. Both are around the performance of the new 2600+. And you all say "o they used PC1066 thats so much" go grab a SiS648 motherboard w/ DDR400 and is on par with stock PC1066

SSXeon

So unless you get a cpu to just bench then by all means get a 2600+!!!!

If you acually do realworld things, wait 5 days and grab a 2.53GHz for $240. I rest my case

SSXeon

 

[Boonesmi]

hehehe what "real world" things are you refering to?

encoding mp3? gaming?

if you notice the benchmark that the P4 totally dominates in is the "synthetic" benchmark of memory bandwidth

 

[SSXeon5]

Originally posted by: Boonesmi
hehehe what "real world" things are you refering to?

encoding mp3? gaming?

if you notice the benchmark that the P4 totally dominates in is the "synthetic" benchmark of memory bandwidth

What did that have to do with what I just said

SSXeon

 

[Boonesmi]

im not saying the 2600+ is faster then the P4

all im saying is that they are close.. neck and neck, one wins some things, one wins others


you are acting like the P4 dominates, and its just not the case


in real world use either one (the P4 or the XP) would work excellent, and real people wouldnt notice a difference in either one

 

[Boonesmi]

i dont understand why it offends you so much that the athlonxp might be as fast as your precious P4?

do you own a lot of intel stock??

 

[SSXeon5]

Originally posted by: Boonesmi
i dont understand why it offends you so much that the athlonxp might be as fast as your precious P4?

do you own a lot of intel stock??

I dont give a crap if it is as fast as my precious P4, but it ISN'T. If it kicked the P4's 2.53GHz ass in 70% of the benchies I wouldn't say a word, but the 2.53Ghz P4 just did that . And Acually I do own intel stock Over 500 shares.

SSXeon

 

[Boonesmi]

"I dont give a crap if it is as fast as my precious P4" hehehe for some strange reason i dont belive that

 

[Duvie]

In a lighter side!!! It still don't beat me!!!

130 dollars and I can get you with 2.66ghz and 442mhz ddr (same bandwidth as pc1066) or 2.736ghz w/ 342mhz ddr cas 2,6,2,2 and 684mhz fsb....


I am happy for amd...it makes my p4 chips cheaper....nothing to impressive to make me want to jump ship...and also even this newer p4 rating system didn't perform better then I thought...I would have expected the 2400+ to be closer....

This is all short lived when the 2.66 and 2.8ghz p4 push it back out further!!!!

 

[SSXeon5]

Originally posted by: Duvie
In a lighter side!!! It still don't beat me!!!

130 dollars and I can get you with 2.66ghz and 442mhz ddr (same bandwidth as pc1066) or 2.736ghz w/ 342mhz ddr cas 2,6,2,2 and 684mhz fsb....


I am happy for amd...it makes my p4 chips cheaper....nothing to impressive to make me want to jump ship...and also even this newer p4 rating system didn't perform better then I thought...I would have expected the 2400+ to be closer....

This is all short lived when the 2.66 and 2.8ghz p4 push it back out further!!!!

Well Sh*t Duvie you read my mind

SSXeon

 

[Swanny]

SSXeon5: Is your entire goal to start flame/pointless-post wars around here? Because it seems that's all you manage to do.

 

[SSXeon5]

Originally posted by: Swanny
SSXeon5: Is your entire goal to start flame/pointless-post wars around here? Because it seems that's all you manage to do.

Your adding gas to the fire with that post you know, no i have just said the 2600+ shouldnt get all the praise it is by everyone. Its a paperlaunch for god sakes! I just cant see how everyone claims how great it is when it gets beat 70% of the time on toms bench against a 2.53Ghz P4. And when the 2600+ is launched it will be about $50-60 more then the Retail 2.53GHz P4.

SSXeon

 

[BowlingNut]

Acanthus:

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: BowlingNut

[ Sampling hasnt begun yet, but they have had working silicon for a LONG time now. So i would hope it would start soon.

well, if you can do better then get your lazy bum off this forum and go do it. if not, you should probably not be criticizing the engineers that are working on it.

I didnt criticize anyone, you talk big for someone new to these forums. If you want any respect at all dont treat your forum mates like dirt bro. Just a hint. What i was saying BEFORE was that sampling was supposed to have begun, and i want to see some numbers soon. You turned that into AMD sux at everything intel R0xors!! W000000T!! WEEEE IM acting like im 5 Y3Ar$ 0ld! When in reality you make me think its hard for you to spell AMD. If you have nothing intellegent to say, dont say it.

first of all, you sure sounded like you were complaining that the amd engineers werent working fast enough to suit you. that is what sparked my reply
second, regardless of how long i've been in the forums, i will speak my mind. if that means crapping on someone whos "senior" to me, so be it. this ain't the military. in any case, i've been a computer enthusiast since the days of the early pentiums, such lovely examples as the P-75, P-90, P-100, P-120. (y'know the ones that liked to catch on fire?). i've been reading anandtech almost since he started the site - at the same time that i built my K6-2 350 system.
lastly, what in God's name does this mean?

You turned that into AMD sux at everything intel R0xors!! W000000T!! WEEEE IM acting like im 5 Y3Ar$ 0ld

i dont know where i stated that i'm a fan of intel or amd. if you must know, i'd rather use an athlon than a p4, but that is just personal preference. it has little bearing on how i debate technical issues.

in any case, back to the real topic:

once the 2.53 drops in price and the new p4's are realeased, i feel pretty certain that AMD will drop its prices also. in any case, it would be silly for any enthusiast to buy a new AMD XP below the 2400+ right now anyway. all the xp's (from 1500-2200) are supposed to be rereleased on teh Rev B Tbred core now. I'd rather wait and let some of the B chips enter the market, pick up a nice 1600 push that baby hard. one would hope that since the 1600 was the sweet spot in oc'ing the A cores, it will continue to be so (perhaps the 1800?). oc'ing a 1600 to 2200/2300 speeds would be really sweet. cheap performance....maybe that should be amd's motto.....

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: alexruiz
Guys, I am not going to quote anyone and I will try to make it short. I wanna present COLD minded reasons, so fanboys (either side) please go out and take a freshening breath.

After reading all the reviews, it seems it is a tie. Please notice also that the results are way too different between all the reviewers.... (divx 5.02 is the biggest example, a site got over 50 fps for the P4 2.53 while other got a more realistic low 30......)

I have talked a lot about benchmarks in the past. Let's be critical and try to discriminate how valid a benchmark is. It doesn't matter if your CPU sweeps the competition if that is a category no one uses. Also, if a benchmark favor one approach over the other the result is not valid. Finally, if a benchmark is not considered as "stressing" but it is very popular, then it can considered as valid (unreal, half life)

My clasification of fairness would be:
AMD biased: optimized for 3d now! only (not pro)
intel biased: optimized for SSE (some cases), SSE2
fair: optimized for SSE (some cases), not optimized.

In some sites, the 2600+ won the majority of tests, while in others the P4 was the clear victor..... Why?? Test beds, tweakings and methodology, including benchmarks.

I was honestly surprised to see such a variation is results.

So I will evaluate the becnhmarks, but please feel free to disagree.

1) Sysmark: Do you believe it???
2) PCmark: Do you believe it?
3) Quack, I mean Q3: It has been told a lot it depends heavily on "memory bandwidth", but when a P3 edged a Tbird easily on the same RAM, and the same tbird with DDR barely beated the same P3 with SDR.... where is the "heavily" factor?? (Please check older reviews) Carmack himself acknowledged the use of "some" SIMD optimizations.
4) Content creation winstone 2002: It is the same that CC 2001, with the exception thath WME is included in the 2002 version.... if you have the 2001 version, run some benches. The AXP will win with no problem... in the 2002 version the P4 wins...
5) 3dmark: Not my favorite, but fair enough. P4 wins.
6) Comanche 4: new, fair enough. P4 wins.
7) Serious Sam: no optimizations, maybe unfair because of that. XP wins.
.
.
.
.

The list could keep going on, but the point is there.

The Winner is:

The CPU that suits your needs the best.

Use a lot of WME??? P4
Play RTS games?? XP
Play simulators? XP
Do a lot of video using optimized software?? P4
Do a lot af CAD? XP
Play older games? XP
Pkay newer optimized games (comanche, aquanox)?? P4
Play new games no optimized?? XP

The situation is the same than in Nov 2000, the P4 wins some, the Athlon wins others. How was a winner decided??? Based in the number of bechmarks they won, and how close they stayed in the benhmarks that lost. Let's be critical.

I hope this stays as a civilized discussion.

SSXeon5, I saw you are upgrading your system. I hope you remember our challenge, your granite bay + prescott against the hammer of my choice.... or are you going to upgrade again in a few months????

I posted this earlier in the thread, but I guess everyone missed it or it was unimportant. I keep stressing the fact that benchmarks selection matters. The situation is no different than when the P4 willamete was launched... "Select" some bechmarks and you can make a platform lok as the winner. As I stated it before, let's be critical of the benchmarks, because to state that a CPU whooped the @$$ of the other means beat in the majority of everything. But how where those "tests" selected?? Just because they are the only availables?? What do these benchmarks try to measure???

Let be honest, who gets a system to run benchmarks only?? No one. Who uses it for something specifc? Everyone. What is the use of the PC??? Mainly is gaming, but the audio and videophiles care about mp3 encoding and Divx.. or the photo addicted and so on.

Sorry guys, but benchmarks such as sysmark are plain junk, and it is sad than some sites uses them as their only bench (cnet anyone?)

Remebre, LET's BE CRITICAL.

SSXeon5, what do you have to say about your soon to happen upgrade??? The challengue is SERIOUS.

 

[BowlingNut]

ust out of curiosity, why does anyone care about the 2.53p4 being faster than the 2.13athlon? i mean, unless your in the market to buy one RIGHT NOW, it doesnt matter. prices changed so dramatically and so quickly in this arena, that these debates generate a lot of.....unnessecary traffic on the forums. yes i realize that includes me, but not a whole lot is goin on business-wise at 11:45 at night (furthermore, until i move in my dorm i have no life and nothing better to do than to soak up my neighbors' bandwidth ).

 

[Duvie]

These last 2 guys got it right on the money!!!!

 

[DAPUNISHER]

but the audio and videophiles care about mp3 encoding and Divx.

SVCD thank you

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BowlingNut
ust out of curiosity, why does anyone care about the 2.53p4 being faster than the 2.13athlon? i mean, unless your in the market to buy one RIGHT NOW, it doesnt matter. prices changed so dramatically and so quickly in this arena, that these debates generate a lot of.....unnessecary traffic on the forums. yes i realize that includes me, but not a whole lot is goin on business-wise at 11:45 at night (furthermore, until i move in my dorm i have no life and nothing better to do than to soak up my neighbors' bandwidth ).

I wouldn't say "unnecessary traffic" . . . it's part of what keeps things interesting around here - differing and vocal points of view. Before the 9700 came out and kicked the GF4's butt and before the new XP, things here last week were . . . mundane and . . . well, boring.

The IMPORTANT thing to remember is to keep the discussion civil and non-personal.

 

[paralazarguer]

THe high end processors of today become the budget processors of tomorrow. It's important to discuss the top of the line processors in depth now so that when they are within your price range you will be able to make an educated decision.

 

[CrazySaint]

Originally posted by: SSXeon5

Originally posted by: Boonesmi
my point is either you deal with officially supported for both or you dont for both

whining about the anantech article not using pc 1066 with the P4 is just silly since its not officially supported

You know your just saying that because wile anandtech handicaped (CrazySaint this time i can say it) the 533Mhz fsb with 800Mhz Ram, and when tom didnt handicap it, the P4 2.53GHz wooped up on the 2600+

SSXeon

No you can't Near as I can tell, PC800 and PC2700DDR are nearly dead even, with the PC2700 having a slight lead. That's not handicapping. Second, running an XP with 3:4 mem ratio at 133FSB gives it a whopping 2% performance increase over PC2100.

I've already stated my opinion of Tom's review. Is it possible that the reason you enjoyed Tom's review and not Anand's is because Tom's review showed the P4 2.53GHz slightly (no whooping going on) more favorably than the 2600+ whereas Anand's review didn't? As near as I can tell, the 2600+ and the 2.53GHz are pretty much dead even.

 

[Acanthus]

IMO it should always be top platform against top platform (without going to workstation), if Intel decided to release 3GIO or PCIX on a motherboard tomorrow, it shouldnt be omitted becuase its an unfair advantage. If you buy the latest computer for a high performance manufacterer (this would be Alienware or Falcon, not Gateway and HP/Compaq) and it will have the feature in question, then it should be included.

As far as SSE2 vs non SSE2 benchmarks, i think they should be included as well. It shows real world performance differences in programs like 3DStudio Max, Pov-Ray, 3DMark2001 SE, DroneZ mark, Unreal 2003, Photoshop, Lame, Bryce, World Builder, Poser, Flash, Dreamwaever, Fireworks, and something not commonly used, Windows XP boot time (would be measurement of boot time on a fresh install with just drivers and no other programs or services.)

You'll notice i put in 3dmark 2001 as a real world benchmark, the only reason i did that was because its one of the only benchies that uses real world game engines and runs a demo and measures the speed automatically then comes up with a cumalitive score, this is one of the only accurate programs designed for benchmarks, that can do just that, and reflect real world 3d performance. Its also very hard to cheat on 3Dmark, its been done, but i dont think its ever been done without the mods figureing out modified scores, and removing them within a few days.

As for Bowling Nut, the statement above meant that was anxious to see AMD bring out the Athlon - 64 (clawhammer) and i would like to see sampling start soon (benchies). Notice im adding words in parenthesis so you can clearly understand what im trying to say. (sarcasm) and i would like you to at least aknowledge that i am contributing to this thread rather than flaming anybody. ('cept you) If we are going to be seeing more of each other i would expect at least a smidgeon of respect the next time we run into each other. I will return the favor. You somehow changed my statement to AMD is too slow bringing out clawhammer, which isnt even close to what i was trying to say, so i felt the flame completely undeserved. As for my reference to you talking big for being new to the forums, there are users here that aren't respected well for what they say (we all thought of a couple names when we read that). I just dont want to see you become one of them over some stupid flame over an AMD release that i wasnt even complaining about.

 

[pRoNe]

Please think for just one minute.
I am an AMD fan, but I can still think rationally.
I was about to update my rig, having owned an xp1600 with 512 2100ddr for a while now, and looking for the fastest (but still financially accessable on my income) i was leaning towards the recent spurry of p4's on the market.
The motherboards are always around the same price as amd equivelents, harddrives, cd roms/burners, dvd players, and other stuff like these are also the same prices for either machine.
So all it left was the memory and cpu. As the newer m'boards out used 2700ddr on both amd and intel, it really only left the cpu.
(My very simple cancelation technique)

So the 2.4 p4 with 533 fsb and the xp2100 were the top at the time. now Although the p4 was more expensive, i was ready to go that way as the xp2100 really had major problems, and was not fast enough for me.

But now with the release of the xp2600, with everything else the same on my list there is really nothing in its league.REALLY

yeah the 2.53 p4 can topple this latest xp in some (or even most, that doesn't matter to me) benchmarks, but for a 2.13mhz cpu it really does pack a good punch. and comes mighty close to the 2.53 for top of the shelf outright speed and performance.

Also, if the fsb of the xp series is the limiting factor for AMD, then why can an xp2600 with only a 266fsb keep inline with the 2.53 p4 and its 533fsb.
Think about that.

 

[paralazarguer]

Also, if the fsb of the xp series is the limiting factor for AMD, then why can an xp2600 with only a 266fsb keep inline with the 2.53 p4 and its 533fsb.
Think about that.

They can't. In 3D animation and CAD (acehardware review) and similar memory hungry applications, the 2600 can't even keep up with a 2.0a. That means that in this application, the P4 is actually more efficient clock for clock because of the FSB. The Athlon is sitting idle IN THIS TYPE OF APPLICATION because it can't get enough data to process. They can keep up in areas where FAB is less important but the FSB is definitely a limiting factor for these applications.
Read about that.

"...it is clear that the Athlon XP 2600+ is not even close to the Pentium 4 in this kind of workload. We suspect that VIA's AGP driver and chipset implementation might not be so effective and rather poorly optimized for professional OpenGL applications. Typically these kind of applications move around huge amounts of geometry data, and therefore memory bandwidth and AGP drivers can make a big difference."

"Four out of seven gaming benchmarks proved to be faster on the Athlon XP 2600+ than on the 2.53 GHz Pentium 4. So, for gamers, the Athlon XP 2600+ lives up to its QS rating and will be a very attractive alternative considering its price.

However, the 2.53 Pentium 4 outperforms the Athlon XP 2600+ by a significant margin in typical workstation creative work. For those kinds of applications, AMD's platform will not outperform Intel's before the Hammer family arrives. We strongly suspect that the Athlon has enough firepower on board to perform well in CAD and 3D-modeling workloads, but that the AGP port and memory bandwidth of the current AMD platform is simply not up to par with Intel's."

 

[pRoNe]

I would think, but might be wrong (I'm sure someone will correct me though )
the main reason that the newer p4 ie 533fsb topple the xp in the workstation tests, not all but most of them, is that it has 512k onchip data cache and xp's only have 256 kb.
I would also like to point out that I did mention that the p4 2.53 is on top of the xp in most test, just read my post propperly, and that the xp2600 can keep inline with it not beat it, although that does as much to me as it does to some of you.

Can you really compare a 2.13mhz xp to a 2.53 mhz p4 cpu anyway without one side being disadvantaged?

It was not long ago when every intel fan was upset buy the amd k7's and it will not e that long until they again have to make excuses for themselves.

 

[alexruiz]

Did anyone notice that aces' s was the only site showing the P4 murdering the AXP in some workstation benchmarks (specviewperf and rendering)???

All the other sites gave the Athlon the upper hand in specviewperf or whatever it is called. They have a tread about it, and they think it is because ACEs was the only one to use a quadro videocard (and they suspect drivers optimization)

Also, if you remember well, NEVER this disparity was shown before in those benchmarks (convince yourselves, check older reviews) so it obvious Ace's changed something.

 

[SSXeon5]

Originally posted by: CrazySaint

Originally posted by: SSXeon5

Originally posted by: Boonesmi
my point is either you deal with officially supported for both or you dont for both

whining about the anantech article not using pc 1066 with the P4 is just silly since its not officially supported

You know your just saying that because wile anandtech handicaped (CrazySaint this time i can say it) the 533Mhz fsb with 800Mhz Ram, and when tom didnt handicap it, the P4 2.53GHz wooped up on the 2600+

SSXeon

No you can't Near as I can tell, PC800 and PC2700DDR are nearly dead even, with the PC2700 having a slight lead. That's not handicapping. Second, running an XP with 3:4 mem ratio at 133FSB gives it a whopping 2% performance increase over PC2100.

I've already stated my opinion of Tom's review. Is it possible that the reason you enjoyed Tom's review and not Anand's is because Tom's review showed the P4 2.53GHz slightly (no whooping going on) more favorably than the 2600+ whereas Anand's review didn't? As near as I can tell, the 2600+ and the 2.53GHz are pretty much dead even.

No I liked toms because he used the top of the line RDRAM (PC1066) and PC800 to compare to the new XP. Anandtech did not, and because it is not offically supported is bullsh*t. So what if they used PC1600 with the XP? And the P4 had PC1066? Would that be fair? No sir, and the way you all act that anandtechs was better because they used PC800 instead of PC1066 or even DDR333 on the BG7/P4B533-V.

SSXeon