AMD blog comment on TWIMTBP

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: aka1nas
Simply getting AA to enable and running through a single level of the game isn't sufficient.

But if AA works when you force it in CCC then we already know it works don't we (unless the manner in which the game is detecting which objects to apply AA to is specific to nV cards)?

 

[dev0lution]

So you're going to quote a blog post from a guy at AMD who's job title is "Advanced technical MARKETING" and who just got beat up for 20+ posts about how their newest drivers broke a bunch of stuff in a bunch of titles as evidence NVIDIA is sabotaging AMD performance? Sounds like AMD should pick up the phone and call some game dev's a bit more often....

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: dev0lution
So you're going to quote a blog post from a guy at AMD who's job title is "Advanced technical MARKETING" and who just got beat up for 20+ posts about how their newest drivers broke a bunch of stuff in a bunch of titles as evidence NVIDIA is sabotaging AMD performance? Sounds like AMD should pick up the phone and call some game dev's a bit more often....

IF the type of ingame AA in Arkham cannot be used on ATI cards then so be it...but IF the AA isn't actually specific to nV cards (like for example PhysX is specific to nV cards) then it does seem like nV and the dev are artificially inflating performance on nV cards which isn't right IMO.

 

[dev0lution]

Originally posted by: thilan29

IF the type of ingame AA in Arkham cannot be used on ATI cards then so be it...but IF the AA isn't actually specific to nV cards (like for example PhysX is specific to nV cards) then it does seem like nV and the dev are artificially inflating performance on nV cards which isn't right IMO.

Agreed - would like to see more info from 3rd parties or the dev..

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: aka1nas

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: aka1nas

Originally posted by: T2k

Originally posted by: aka1nas

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Wreckage
AMD has poor developer relations. That's not NVIDIA's fault.

There's probably some truth in that but disabling AA(!!)...that's just wrong...it's not a proprietary tech like PhysX (I think)...why should ATI's dev relations have to help a dev put AA of all things into their game when it's running an ATI card. If true...the fact that changing the hardware tag enables the AA (and assuming it runs fine) just reeks of the devs being paid off (which is the devs' fault as much an nVidia's).

They didn't disable it, they enabled AA if you had NV hardware. That's completely different and it's a misrepresentation to claim the reverse.

Yeah, except aparently it's enabled by default as soon as you change the Vendor ID.

Stop BSing about Nvidia's another disgusting trick.

It's not enabled by default. They changed the Vendor ID to Nvidia.

Right. Because that enables AA - even on an ATI card, as it's been proved.

Again: games comes with disabled AA, you claim because they "worked" with NV it only works with NV cards - then changing vendor ID suddenly enables it on ATIs.

Which part of this ridiculous BS story is still unclear for you?

I'm not sure which part is unclear to you. Have you actually played the whole game through on an ATI card to make sure it actually works properly with AA enabled?

You're knee-jerking based on an corporate blog entry by an AMD employee. I'm going to take the word of the actual developer of the game over that unless there's direct proof of the contrary. Simply getting AA to enable and running through a single level of the game isn't sufficient.

ROFLMAO - this post is the winner of the "Most Pathetic & Illogical NV-excusing Post of the Week" title! :beer:

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: dev0lution
So you're going to quote a blog post from a guy at AMD who's job title is "Advanced technical MARKETING" and who just got beat up for 20+ posts about how their newest drivers broke a bunch of stuff in a bunch of titles as evidence NVIDIA is sabotaging AMD performance? Sounds like AMD should pick up the phone and call some game dev's a bit more often....

IF the type of ingame AA in Arkham cannot be used on ATI cards then so be it...but IF the AA isn't actually specific to nV cards (like for example PhysX is specific to nV cards) then it does seem like nV and the dev are artificially inflating performance on nV cards which isn't right IMO.

.but but but...


...it WORKS after you change the ID thus fake an NV card.

 

[MarcVenice]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: dev0lution
So you're going to quote a blog post from a guy at AMD who's job title is "Advanced technical MARKETING" and who just got beat up for 20+ posts about how their newest drivers broke a bunch of stuff in a bunch of titles as evidence NVIDIA is sabotaging AMD performance? Sounds like AMD should pick up the phone and call some game dev's a bit more often....

IF the type of ingame AA in Arkham cannot be used on ATI cards then so be it...but IF the AA isn't actually specific to nV cards (like for example PhysX is specific to nV cards) then it does seem like nV and the dev are artificially inflating performance on nV cards which isn't right IMO.

There is no such thing. Apparently the game tells the drivers where to apply AA and where not. Then AA get's applied. MSAA is roughly 95% the same for Nvidia and ATI, it get's done after all the scenes have been rendered, so there is no reason it should work on Nvidia-cards and not on ATI-cards. Unless you artificially disable it of course...

 

[imported_Shaq]

So is Ian saying securerom is in on it too? Where is the smoking gun that they took AA out? AA had to be forced in the demo too so it was most likely never in the code in the first place. It is always a conspiracy and not a simple business decision. You pay money you influence the game development. Maybe Nvidia did it because they knew they were behind with the next gen and this might help their bottom line. "It's not personal, it's just business" as Trump would say.

Things like this are going to be the norm from now on get used to it. The Cryostasis advanced PhysX patch got delayed because EVGA and/or Nvidia got a 3-4 week exclusive before prior purchasers were able to get the patch. DIRT 2 is delayed to put DX11 in it at the behest of AMD. Pizza Hut got a 2-3 week exclusive on free DLC for Fight Night 4 for the 360 so EA/MS or whoever can make a little bit more money. I think there may be exclusive games for the PC in the future depending what card you have or at least a delay for the other companies cards. It wouldn't surprise me at all if 5870 owners get to download DIRT 2 before it hits retail. Like I said get used to it both sides are doing it now. Nobody likes it but Nvidia, AMD and the game developers/publishers. Maybe in the future we will need an AMD and Nvidia card in the same PC to play games because of this.

 

[MarcVenice]

Originally posted by: Shaq
So is Ian saying securerom is in on it too? Where is the smoking gun that they took AA out? AA had to be forced in the demo too so it was most likely never in the code in the first place. It is always a conspiracy and not a simple business decision. You pay money you influence the game development. Maybe Nvidia did it because they knew they were behind with the next gen and this might help their bottom line. "It's not personal, it's just business" as Trump would say.

Things like this are going to be the norm from now on get used to it. The Cryostasis advanced PhysX patch got delayed because EVGA and/or Nvidia got a 3-4 week exclusive before prior purchasers were able to get the patch. DIRT 2 is delayed to put DX11 in it at the behest of AMD. Pizza Hut got a 2-3 week exclusive on free DLC for Fight Night 4 for the 360 so EA/MS or whoever can make a little bit more money. I think there may be exclusive games for the PC in the future depending what card you have or at least a delay for the other companies cards. It wouldn't surprise me at all if 5870 owners get to download DIRT 2 before it hits retail. Like I said get used to it both sides are doing it now. Nobody likes it but Nvidia, AMD and the game developers/publishers. Maybe in the future we will need an AMD and Nvidia card in the same PC to play games because of this.

Very wrong.

Both Nvidia and AMD won't sell any videocards if some games only run on ATI or Nvidia-cards. No, having exclusives like you are mentioning is totally unrelated. It's about open standards. DirectX 11 is an open standard, if Nvidia brings out a dx11-gpu it'll make use of dx11 features just the same as ATI cards. That has NOTHING to do with DLC being available early through Pizza hut, or Dirt 2 being downloaded with the Dirt 2 coupons you get with AMD cards.

 

[Atechie]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice

Originally posted by: Shaq
So is Ian saying securerom is in on it too? Where is the smoking gun that they took AA out? AA had to be forced in the demo too so it was most likely never in the code in the first place. It is always a conspiracy and not a simple business decision. You pay money you influence the game development. Maybe Nvidia did it because they knew they were behind with the next gen and this might help their bottom line. "It's not personal, it's just business" as Trump would say.

Things like this are going to be the norm from now on get used to it. The Cryostasis advanced PhysX patch got delayed because EVGA and/or Nvidia got a 3-4 week exclusive before prior purchasers were able to get the patch. DIRT 2 is delayed to put DX11 in it at the behest of AMD. Pizza Hut got a 2-3 week exclusive on free DLC for Fight Night 4 for the 360 so EA/MS or whoever can make a little bit more money. I think there may be exclusive games for the PC in the future depending what card you have or at least a delay for the other companies cards. It wouldn't surprise me at all if 5870 owners get to download DIRT 2 before it hits retail. Like I said get used to it both sides are doing it now. Nobody likes it but Nvidia, AMD and the game developers/publishers. Maybe in the future we will need an AMD and Nvidia card in the same PC to play games because of this.

Very wrong.

Both Nvidia and AMD won't sell any videocards if some games only run on ATI or Nvidia-cards. No, having exclusives like you are mentioning is totally unrelated. It's about open standards. DirectX 11 is an open standard, if Nvidia brings out a dx11-gpu it'll make use of dx11 features just the same as ATI cards. That has NOTHING to do with DLC being available early through Pizza hut, or Dirt 2 being downloaded with the Dirt 2 coupons you get with AMD cards.

DirectX is proprietary to Microsoft (and ONLY under Windows)...it's not a open standard.
Just like PhysX is proprietary to NVIDIA or Havok is proprietary to Intel.

 

[MarcVenice]

Originally posted by: Atechie

DirectX is proprietary to Microsoft (and ONLY under Windows)...it's not a open standard.
Just like PhysX is proprietary to NVIDIA or Havok is proprietary to Intel.

True, dx11 isn't an open standard, but then again, considering both nvidia and ati simply makes videocards that adhere to the dx-standard, it's a non-argument. I mean, anyone can try and make a vidcard thats directx compatible, not everyone can make a videocard that will run CUDA, coz Nvidia won't tell. That's the big difference.

DirectX is industry leading, Cuda isn't. And AA isn't even a standard, so enabling it on nvidia hardware and not on ati-hardware means you're going to alienate gamers....

 

[Jacen]

If this is even remotely true it is a real shame that things have come to this point. Locking out major graphic features from a rival is terrible repercussion for consumers regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

 

[MrK6]

Originally posted by: Atechie

Originally posted by: MarcVenice

Originally posted by: Shaq
So is Ian saying securerom is in on it too? Where is the smoking gun that they took AA out? AA had to be forced in the demo too so it was most likely never in the code in the first place. It is always a conspiracy and not a simple business decision. You pay money you influence the game development. Maybe Nvidia did it because they knew they were behind with the next gen and this might help their bottom line. "It's not personal, it's just business" as Trump would say.

Things like this are going to be the norm from now on get used to it. The Cryostasis advanced PhysX patch got delayed because EVGA and/or Nvidia got a 3-4 week exclusive before prior purchasers were able to get the patch. DIRT 2 is delayed to put DX11 in it at the behest of AMD. Pizza Hut got a 2-3 week exclusive on free DLC for Fight Night 4 for the 360 so EA/MS or whoever can make a little bit more money. I think there may be exclusive games for the PC in the future depending what card you have or at least a delay for the other companies cards. It wouldn't surprise me at all if 5870 owners get to download DIRT 2 before it hits retail. Like I said get used to it both sides are doing it now. Nobody likes it but Nvidia, AMD and the game developers/publishers. Maybe in the future we will need an AMD and Nvidia card in the same PC to play games because of this.

Very wrong.

Both Nvidia and AMD won't sell any videocards if some games only run on ATI or Nvidia-cards. No, having exclusives like you are mentioning is totally unrelated. It's about open standards. DirectX 11 is an open standard, if Nvidia brings out a dx11-gpu it'll make use of dx11 features just the same as ATI cards. That has NOTHING to do with DLC being available early through Pizza hut, or Dirt 2 being downloaded with the Dirt 2 coupons you get with AMD cards.

DirectX is proprietary to Microsoft (and ONLY under Windows)...it's not a open standard.
Just like PhysX is proprietary to NVIDIA or Havok is proprietary to Intel.

Except it has complete market penetration. What other OS are you gaming on?

I called it from the beginning that NVIDIA was pulling gimmicky market bullshit with this game. First with their completely neutering the in-game PhysX on non-NVIDIA hardware, now with AA. I refuse to spend any money on this game. Whenever this BS marketing crap is involved, I'm not going to support this.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

AA has never worked well on AMD cards using the Unreal 3 engine.

Can you please elaborate?

ATi might be slow with implementing it in certain titles but when they do, it works like nVidia?s AA does.

So the developers probably disable it because of these issues.

What issues might those be? When the game is tricked AA runs fine, and from I?ve seen it runs fine when forced from CCC too, just slower.

These conspiracy theories of nefarious deeds are rather amusing though.

This is an artificial block imposed for absolutely no good reason. If it isn?t nVidia?s fault then it?s the developer?s.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
It seems pretty lame for AMD to blame its problems on NVIDIA. Especially in a blog post with no proof.

It seems pretty lame for fanboys to blindly defend NVidia before they have all the facts.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Shaq
Maybe in the future we will need an AMD and Nvidia card in the same PC to play games because of this.

Except, the drivers will lock out games from running on your system if you have a mixed config. Seperate ATI and NV gaming PCs for the win! PC gaming just doubled in expense, as if PC gaming needed another strike against it to survive.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice

Originally posted by: Atechie

DirectX is proprietary to Microsoft (and ONLY under Windows)...it's not a open standard.
Just like PhysX is proprietary to NVIDIA or Havok is proprietary to Intel.

True, dx11 isn't an open standard, but then again, considering both nvidia and ati simply makes videocards that adhere to the dx-standard, it's a non-argument.

Actually MS usually asks them what to include in the next one.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: dev0lution
So you're going to quote a blog post from a guy at AMD who's job title is "Advanced technical MARKETING" and who just got beat up for 20+ posts about how their newest drivers broke a bunch of stuff in a bunch of titles as evidence NVIDIA is sabotaging AMD performance? Sounds like AMD should pick up the phone and call some game dev's a bit more often....

Exactly.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Can the mods just highlight Nvidia fanboys usernames so I can skip over their posts? Oh wait, half our mods are part of the NV focus group....how could I forget?

-----------------------------------------
Our Moderators are expected to be professional with respect to Moderating this forum.
Which is more than certain members are.

This post is considered to be a Mod callout and also flaming which is not tolerated.


See you in a week


Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: ShaqMaybe in the future we will need an AMD and Nvidia card in the same PC to play games because of this.

Not going to happen. PC gaming is already a niche. If video hardware companies make it their strategy to fragment this market it will completely dry up. NV is definitely thinking marketing tactics vs tech leader strategy and hoping longer term they'll be able to compete on merit. Taking a page from Intel's playbook during the early amd64 era.

The only rational thing to do is not to buy this title if you are gaming on a PC. And think hard about buying followup titles from them in the future. There should be some financial ramifications for the developer and publisher for pulling crap like this.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice

Originally posted by: Atechie

DirectX is proprietary to Microsoft (and ONLY under Windows)...it's not a open standard.
Just like PhysX is proprietary to NVIDIA or Havok is proprietary to Intel.

True, dx11 isn't an open standard, but then again, considering both nvidia and ati simply makes videocards that adhere to the dx-standard, it's a non-argument. I mean, anyone can try and make a vidcard thats directx compatible, not everyone can make a videocard that will run CUDA, coz Nvidia won't tell. That's the big difference.

DirectX is industry leading, Cuda isn't. And AA isn't even a standard, so enabling it on nvidia hardware and not on ati-hardware means you're going to alienate gamers....

I agree Nvidia are alienating gamers,even David Hoff ex Nvidia now Director of AMD's Advanced Technology says so,

On the other hand, as I think you've seen from the PhysX side of things, while they seem to talk about support for openness when they're backed into a corner, apparently in a recent driver update they've actually disabled PhysX running on their GPU if an ATI card is used for rendering in order to pressure users to use an all Nvidia configuration.

The contrast should be fairly stark here: we're intentionally enabling physics to run on all platforms - this is all about developer adoption. Of course we're confident enough in our ability to bring compelling new GPUs to market that we don't need to try to lock anyone in..

Lets see what bull Nvidia fans say about that.


Link to above statement is here.

Btw as a long term gamer myself these are sort of tactics I hate about Nvidia,they sure are not doing any favours for all of us gamers out there.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: dev0lution
So you're going to quote a blog post from a guy at AMD who's job title is "Advanced technical MARKETING" and who just got beat up for 20+ posts about how their newest drivers broke a bunch of stuff in a bunch of titles as evidence NVIDIA is sabotaging AMD performance? Sounds like AMD should pick up the phone and call some game dev's a bit more often....

Exactly.

The Unreal engine is several years old now, isn't it? You guys feel that the devs couldn't pull off AA with AMD cards on an engine that is some years old, even though other games that use the engine can utilize AA with AMD cards? Not to mention a there is a 'hack' out there that does make it work. Some guy working out of his mom's basement can figure it out, but the devs couldn't quite pull it off due to AMD's lack of communication during the development process?

 

[sandorski]

ATI/AMD should go Scorched Earth: Pay MS to Disable Nvidia HW from DX. Then we'll see some fireworks. :laugh:

 

[dguy6789]

Unreal Engine 3 has had support for AA on ATI cards for a long time now. Without the developers writing any code what so ever, it would support AA on ATI cards. The only way it would stop working for Batman is for the developers to do something to make it stop working. It is insanely obvious that they did. All Nvidia fanboys are doing is bashing the credibility of the article. Here's a newsflash for you: Whoever said it doesn't matter. What was said makes perfect sense and can be tested and verified. Nvidia has dug themselves into a hole big time with this. Their public image will drop like a rock.(Not that it hasn't been already)

You guys can't seriously be trying to blame ATI on this can you? When all a person did was modify the vendor ID and everything began working perfectly? You believe the developer when they said they are now going to talk to ATI about this "issue"? You seriously believe that? They are obviously saving face and acting like they didn't know what happened now that they were caught red handed. You can't make a game and not know what was going on there like they are pretending has happened.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: sandorski
ATI/AMD should go Scorched Earth: Pay MS to Disable Nvidia HW from DX. Then we'll see some fireworks. :laugh:

While revenge would be sweet, ATI is above doing stuff like that. Various APIs and games working on all video cards properly is what would be better for gamers and is what ATI is all about.