AMD Bulldozer and Llano going to be delayed? GF 32nm troubles?

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ModestGamer

Banned
Jun 30, 2010
1,140
0
0
BD has no GPU, I don't know where you heard this. The only block diagrams I've seen show a shared 256b FP unit between core pairs.

I'm all for BD being good and AMD producing a good product, but you're sounding like a thoughtless fanboi.


LOL look more carefully at the diagram. I use the term gpu lightly. it is a math coprocessor "what they were called before they were gpu's back in the 386 days". they offload math to it from the instruction side. There is way more to bulldozer then your being led to belive. I got in on a Q&A a while back. Its pretty heady stuff they are talking about.

but its ok. even if it clocks slower its instruction and math execution per cycle is going to be impressive.

you think the rearranged the cores and handlers for a dual core cpu ?

So they could have a mini dual core dual core? whats the advantage in that. add in a coprocessor though and it makes alot more sense.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
wow this thread rapidly decayed to point of useless fanboy hopes.

^Thanks IDC, that would be great.

sending pm...I've no desire to incite the kind of pointless debates that occur all the time on AMDzone, and going by the tone already set in here that is about all my post would accomplish.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Why is it that nobody picked up "Bulldozer remains on track" from the call?

I picked it up just fine. 2011 1sr qt. 2ndqt 3rd qt. 4th qt. Iread the XS forum on this subject as most here in this thread have .

You have been told this already so I won't bother. But what QT. of 2011. I listened to what was said at this conferance call and the one befor that . So your aware of were the debate comes from . Intel gave a road map for sandy bridge about a year ago . and have moved ramping forward. The last time we talked. I said lets see AMDs server market share after 2nd qt results. I said AMDs first qt results for server would decrease from 9% market share to lower share in second qt results. I was thinking 8% but now I am thinking 7%.
Yes I understand the 12 core unit was just released so it didn't add much .

But I will say after 3rd qt results AMD loses even further server share. This is AMDs high dollar CPUs . Since you work for AMD server . You should have known this . I did and I don't work for either. So whats up. As for being ontrack Ya we might see BD in 2011 or it may be 2012. He said its still on track for 2011. Thats is 12 months in 2011. Pick a month.
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
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Amd will be fine...The meeting also said bulldozer was on track. Dirk said that the delays weren't anything bad and that they wer just normal learning delays. It also said Ontario will be shipping before the end of the year and available for purchase quarter 1 next year. Which is good, because that's probably the chip that stands to really make AMD the most money, imho. They also look like they had all around a great quarter. So basically Llano gets pushed back 2-3 months. Oh no! (Good for Intel though, and in a way it's good for those of us who live in Oregon, whistles innocently, going to push SB demand up I bet!)

I fail to see the doom and gloom, I do find it funny how everyone is like "zomg intel r0x0rs lol amd is not goin to be able to compete they aren't big enough lololol" (basically...and yes, I like Intel as well, and have Intel box, so does my gf)...

I remember people saying that back in the friggin K6 days... Yeah. AMD is still around. They've made some great products and some mediocre ones. Just like Intel. Goes back and forth. I predict that that will continue.

Right now we're at a bit of a lull, where AMD isn't competitive on the high end. Sort of like Intel wasn't back in the K8 / P4 days (and I'd argue, before that for a while as well). Intel came back and made some of the most kickass chips we've ever seen.

The meeting also said bulldozer was on track for sometime in 2011.

would ya ike me to digg up threads were people were saying 1st second qt .2011. We won't see BD until late 2011 if we see it at all in 2011. A new arch requires alot of valadation on server side at least a year . Tap out and valadation samples are worlds apart . When did BD tape out . Second QT . of 2010 correct or not.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
On the AVX thing 1+1 = 2 Yep its afact 128 + 128= 256 . In this case not .

256 is greater than 128+128= 256 . Were this math is concerned . Also Intel has EXCLUSIVE use of the VEC PREFIX. Find out the differance people become informed.

Who will developers develope for Giant Intel or Tiny AMD . In the server market this rings even more true. A lot of talk about what SB is yet INtel hasn't really said as much about SB arch . Were as AMD has .
 

Kuzi

Senior member
Sep 16, 2007
572
0
0
Anyway, let's not make too much out of this. Delay? I don't think so. It was known for quite a long time Bulldozer release would be Q2/Q3, while Llano was always "H1". I'm thinking April-May for Llano, similar time next year as Thuban did this year.

My thoughts exactly IntelUser2000. It was obvious for a while now that Bulldozer will not make it for Q1 and probably not even for Q2 2011. But I don't believe the new process is the issue here, as both Ontario and Llano have been sampling for some months now, which means AMD should be able release these parts in the first half of 2011.

One thing to remember is that the move from 45nm to 32nm will be huge for AMD, and will bring on tremendous improvements in power efficiency. Intel already had HKMG for their 45nm process, so the gains in power efficiency when they moved to 32nm was for the most part because of the process shrink.

Seems to me that Bulldozer would release around Q3 2011 if all goes well, so a bit later than what people were expecting. But it's likely the delay has more to do with the architecture itself than Global Foundries 32nm process.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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It also said Ontario will be shipping before the end of the year and available for purchase quarter 1 next year. Which is good, because that's probably the chip that stands to really make AMD the most money, imho.

It sounds like a very interesting chip. I am really curious to see how it will stack up against Intel Oak Trail as far as pros and cons go.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
I'm expecting Cedar Trail(Pine Trail successor) for Netbooks/Nettop early next year so that's what Ontario would go against, mainly. Oak Trail stands one TDP segment lower than Cedar Trail.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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I'm expecting Cedar Trail(Pine Trail successor) for Netbooks/Nettop early next year so that's what Ontario would go against, mainly. Oak Trail stands one TDP segment lower than Cedar Trail.

I appreciate you clearing that up for me.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
Lol, no problem.

The current Pine Trail platform stands at 5.5W CPU+GMCH TDP and 1.5W NM10 chipset for combined total of 7W. The Oak Trail platform is the successor to the Z5xx Menlow, which currently have 2.5W+2.2W for the highest SKU. Cedar Trail would likely remain 7W combined, while Oak Trail should be a bit lower, perhaps at under 4.5W.





AMD seems to be happy about the graphics for Ontario from the transcript.
 
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veri745

Golden Member
Oct 11, 2007
1,163
4
81
LOL look more carefully at the diagram. I use the term gpu lightly. it is a math coprocessor "what they were called before they were gpu's back in the 386 days". they offload math to it from the instruction side. There is way more to bulldozer then your being led to belive. I got in on a Q&A a while back. Its pretty heady stuff they are talking about.

but its ok. even if it clocks slower its instruction and math execution per cycle is going to be impressive.

you think the rearranged the cores and handlers for a dual core cpu ?

So they could have a mini dual core dual core? whats the advantage in that. add in a coprocessor though and it makes alot more sense.


OK, as long as you're using the term 'GPU' to mean "not a GPU", then I think we're on the same page.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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AMD seems to be happy about the graphics for Ontario from the transcript.

Yep, I am wondering how the power management will compare to Nvidia NG-ION. I know every watt counts in the netbook/subnotebook segment.
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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Lol, no problem.

The current Pine Trail platform stands at 5.5W CPU+GMCH TDP and 1.5W NM10 chipset for combined total of 7W. The Oak Trail platform is the successor to the Z5xx Menlow, which currently have 2.5W+2.2W for the highest SKU. Cedar Trail would likely remain 7W combined, while Oak Trail should be a bit lower, perhaps at under 4.5W.

Thanks again for this info.

Anandtech Moorestown article said:
Lincroft houses the CPU, GPU and memory controller and is built on Intel’s 45nm process. This isn’t the same 45nm process used in other Intel CPUs, instead it’s a special low power version that trades 6 - 8% performance for a 60% reduction in leakage. The tradeoff makes sense since the bulk of these chips will run at or below 1.5GHz. And by the way, it’s now called the Atom Z600 series.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3696/...600-series-the-fastest-smartphone-processor/3


With Lincroft being confirmed low leakage 45nm at this point would it be safe to assume Cedar Trail use the same manufacturing process? Or would 32nm be more likely for Cedar Trail?

The reason I am asking is because these very low power x86 chips sound rather interesting for very small tablet form factors running Windows. (see link below)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3752/moorestown-wont-run-windows-but-oaktrail-will

Anandtech article said:
Moorestown can’t run Windows. It has no PCI bus, and without one you can’t run Windows. Oaktrail solves this problem.

Take Lincroft (Atom Z6xx series SoC) and pair it with a new PCH, codenamed Whitney Point and you get Oaktrail. Whitney Point is effectively Langwell plus SATA, HD Audio, HDMI and a bunch of legacy I/O (HPET, GPIO, RTC, DMA). Oaktrail is roughly the same footprint as Moorestown and although it’ll consume more power it’ll use less than Pine Trail.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
With Lincroft being confirmed low leakage 45nm at this point would it be safe to assume Cedar Trail use the same manufacturing process? Or would 32nm be more likely for Cedar Trail?

I'm thinking of summarizing all the variations of Atom out there in a seperate thread.

But for now, Lincroft is a Smartphone/Tablet platform, Oak Trail is a slightly higher power bracket that enables Windows support for Tablets/MIDs and whatever that's small but not phone-small. Cedar Trail is based on the next generation 32nm Atom, that will be for Netbooks/Nettops which has even higher thermals.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
Ontario/Bobcat will likely go head on against Cedar Trail/Cedarview, but for the most part, AMD will be able to take the "premium" Netbook market at least. Perhaps they can do Tablets and even MID/UMPCs as well.

I suspect there's going to be so much overlapping next year, with the higher end Ontario competing against low end Llano and Core ix low power derivatives, not only in performance, but pricing too.
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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Oak Trail is a slightly higher power bracket that enables Windows support for Tablets/MIDs and whatever that's small but not phone-small.

Does anyone here know what size form factors Oaktrail could accomodate? Would a 7" Tablet complete with HDD be out of the question?

I am presuming 45nm "Low leakage" is being used in order to enable a fanless chassis design.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
AIt also said Ontario will be shipping before the end of the year and available for purchase quarter 1 next year.

Makes sense, I think. Ontario is supposed to be 40nm bulk silicon from TSMC. So long as TSMC doesn't have any problems with their 40nm process, it should be on track.

So basically Llano gets pushed back 2-3 months. Oh no!

You can color me disappointed, but apparently AMD thinks Bulldozer is higher-priority, so that's the 32nm product that stays on schedule, or what not. That is, provided that AMD actually made a decision of that nature . . . it could be that Bulldozer's release date has always been a bit more conservative than Llano's.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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I'm thinking of summarizing all the variations of Atom out there in a seperate thread.

That would be awesome if you have the time. I still need to read the old Anandtech atom articles myself.

But anyway, back on topic. I wonder what implications successful development by Intel in the x86 Tablet area will have on AMD?

We have already talked about AMD being a year behind Intel in process technology. How much would it matter in this category? Is developing a "low leakage" version of an existing process harder or easier than advancing to the next node?
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
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Don't need Oak Trail to make a fanless Atom system. I have a 5.6-inch screen UMPC here and the only sound it makes is the HDD, barely noticeable.

Oak Trail would make it even better. They could probably make pretty thin Tablets.

That would be awesome if you have the time. I still need to read the old Anandtech atom articles myself.

But anyway, back on topic. I wonder what implications successful development by Intel in the x86 Tablet area will have on AMD?

AMD has absolutely no presence here. If Intel can popularize the Tablet segment, AMD should benefit as well. After all, they are both x86.

We have already talked about AMD being a year behind Intel in process technology. How much would it matter in this category? Is developing a "low leakage" version of an existing process harder or easier than advancing to the next node?

IDC is probably better at answering this than me. He's the resident process tech expert. Though yes, Intel's SoC process is 1 year behind their performance version. They are trying to reduce the gap.
 
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Kuzi

Senior member
Sep 16, 2007
572
0
0
We have already talked about AMD being a year behind Intel in process technology. How much would it matter in this category? Is developing a "low leakage" version of an existing process harder or easier than advancing to the next node?

It is easier and much cheaper to develop a lower leakage version of the same process, than to move to a smaller process. The main difference between the lower power and high performance versions is the different "material/element" being used for the gate dielectric film (insulating layer). Of course because of the competition between semiconductor companies, many of them simply decide against developing different versions of the same process, and instead work on the move to the smaller process which should bring on better improvements in chip power characteristics.

The use of High-k Metal Gate layer (HKMG), is one example of lowering leakage and power. It actually can be used for either high performance (higher clocks) or low power versions of the chips produced. Intel has been researching/using HKMG for some years now, and SandyBridge will be developed on their second generation 32nm process, so expect SB to achieve impressive power efficiency numbers.

IDC knows much more about this subject, so he can probably explain this in greater detail
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
We have already talked about AMD being a year behind Intel in process technology. How much would it matter in this category?

It has its pros and its cons. Being a year behind means that your critical decision points during development are also a year behind, which means you have the added advantage of the process hardware (tools, like immersion litho) being a year more mature or a year further along in their own development timeline so you have all the more data and confidence in your risk assessments when it comes time to make your decision regarding whether or not you are going to rely on those leading edge technologies when you enter your new node into production.

Immersion litho is a perfect example of this. The technology for making production-worthy immersion litho tools was maturing at a pace that was just too far behind Intel's own 45nm development schedule.

AMD's development schedule, by virtue of being about a year behind Intel's, was much better aligned with that of the toolset developer's schedule. As such, when it came time at AMD for the decision of whether to implement immersion-litho or double-patterning they had a year's more data on the production worthiness of immersion litho equipment and were able to assess the risk and make a data-driven decision to go for it.

This is just one example, but basically every process step in the entire flow benefits from similar advances in toolsets that are always going on. We just don't hear about them in the consumer world because not every process tool makes for a good PR story.

Is developing a "low leakage" version of an existing process harder or easier than advancing to the next node?

At TI we developed three flavors of a process node in parallel. Low-power/mobile, higher-power for plug-in devices, and then highest performance for CPU's.

You get to recycle your BEOL process tech (metal layers) but virtually the entire FEOL (transistor build) is developed around the targeted application. So the low-power transistors were independently developed/optimized/etc from the development efforts to make the high-power xtors, and so on.

The differences are not so simple as just changing gate-oxide. All the implants are adjusted, all the spacers and physical dimensions are adjusted. Min Lg will be larger, EOT will be thicker, etc. Pretty much everything is altered and optimized to minimize power-consumption for the targeted parametrics excepting for the minimum gate pitch.

In other words it is very much like developing a wholely new node, takes nearly as much time, and as such is done in parallel. Intel's low-power stuff coming out a year after the high-power doesn't mean they started the low-power development when the high-power was done...they probably spent a minimum of 3yrs developing that low-power flavor of their node. (at TI we called these different flavors of a node the "sub-nodes")

And it is the lead times that are involved here that makes the situation pretty much as it is. You need 3 yrs to develop the low-power stuff, the chip designers need at least 2yrs for simple DSP stuff, longer if it is a complicated SOC design like Atom or Llano. You can't just tell everyone to wait it out to the next next node. The treadmill is always going and you can't really jump ahead in an effective manner.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
106
It has its pros and its cons. Being a year behind means that your critical decision points during development are also a year behind, which means you have the added advantage of the process hardware (tools, like immersion litho) being a year more mature or a year further along in their own development timeline so you have all the more data and confidence in your risk assessments when it comes time to make your decision regarding whether or not you are going to rely on those leading edge technologies when you enter your new node into production.

Immersion litho is a perfect example of this. The technology for making production-worthy immersion litho tools was maturing at a pace that was just too far behind Intel's own 45nm development schedule.

AMD's development schedule, by virtue of being about a year behind Intel's, was much better aligned with that of the toolset developer's schedule. As such, when it came time at AMD for the decision of whether to implement immersion-litho or double-patterning they had a year's more data on the production worthiness of immersion litho equipment and were able to assess the risk and make a data-driven decision to go for it.

This is just one example, but basically every process step in the entire flow benefits from similar advances in toolsets that are always going on. We just don't hear about them in the consumer world because not every process tool makes for a good PR story.



At TI we developed three flavors of a process node in parallel. Low-power/mobile, higher-power for plug-in devices, and then highest performance for CPU's.

You get to recycle your BEOL process tech (metal layers) but virtually the entire FEOL (transistor build) is developed around the targeted application. So the low-power transistors were independently developed/optimized/etc from the development efforts to make the high-power xtors, and so on.

The differences are not so simple as just changing gate-oxide. All the implants are adjusted, all the spacers and physical dimensions are adjusted. Min Lg will be larger, EOT will be thicker, etc. Pretty much everything is altered and optimized to minimize power-consumption for the targeted parametrics excepting for the minimum gate pitch.

In other words it is very much like developing a wholely new node, takes nearly as much time, and as such is done in parallel. Intel's low-power stuff coming out a year after the high-power doesn't mean they started the low-power development when the high-power was done...they probably spent a minimum of 3yrs developing that low-power flavor of their node. (at TI we called these different flavors of a node the "sub-nodes")

And it is the lead times that are involved here that makes the situation pretty much as it is. You need 3 yrs to develop the low-power stuff, the chip designers need at least 2yrs for simple DSP stuff, longer if it is a complicated SOC design like Atom or Llano. You can't just tell everyone to wait it out to the next next node. The treadmill is always going and you can't really jump ahead in an effective manner.

Thanks for the post. That helped tremendously.

It would be great to see AMD and other companies gaining technology to help them achieve faster development at the sub node level. That way even if Intel is always faster to the next node there might be a chance to tie on the low leakage parts.
 
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