AMD CEO talks of long-term turnaround

[ShintaiDK]

You mean like the fact that it's enabling them to pull money out of a very old architecture and keeping it competitive. Marketshare doesn't matter to a company that needs to make profits.

Profit depends on marketshare in a volume oriented business.

 

[mrmt]

HBM is an inflection point for the video card business (and maybe the entire PC industry) and AMD is leading the charge. Its a feather in their cap. Whether they made the right decision short term is moot; what matters is the long term and there I think they hit a homerun.

I'm shocked tbh how much AMD'S competitive position improved with HBM.

By the time HBM becomes relevant for the rest of the market Nvidia will be able to adopt it and reap all the benefits, but we don't know whether AMD will have a competitive uarch. It's the same old pattern, AMD gets a technological prowess (dx11, ghz card, etc) but Nvidia ends up laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[mrmt]

Fury's power consumption would be huge without HBM. AMD also spent years and years of work on HBM with the ability to use it before anyone else. Yes, they didn't have the money to develop a new architecture with it but that doesn't make it a failure when they started development so many years ago.

A new uarch could be used on the entire product stack. HBM1 just in a few skus.

 

[jeff_rigby]

By the time HBM becomes relevant for the rest of the market Nvidia will be able to adopt it and reap all the benefits, but we don't know whether AMD will have a competitive uarch. It's the same old pattern, AMD gets a technological prowess (dx11, ghz card, etc) but Nvidia ends up laughing all the way to the bank.

Unless multiple game consoles create an economy of scale and make AMD APU/SoCs with HBM MUCH cheaper than Intel APUs. Nvidia will share the cost reductions with AMD for HBM on dGPUs.

What I have posted is about PCs in the living room and they should be a cheaper one package middle of the line SoC (PS4 performance) likely without dGPU. It's a world wide market and includes China where PCs are more popular than Game Consoles. Windows 10 marketing model changes reflect targeting China and the Free Playready server after Jan 2015 reflects the one DRM Playready standard ecosystem that's coming to the US. Vidipath + Playready ND will support up to 4K media & PC as DVR in the home (FCC DSTAC).

I'm not a Johnny one note but I believe Microsoft (AMD Trustzone partner) is counting on 4K media and the PC moving to the living room to create a resurgence of the PC market. Moving to Windows 10 as a service is only viable with many more users.

Windows 10 supporting HEVC encoding and decoding and the XB1, Kaveri and Carrizo supporting both without using Shaders as well as Gesture recognition and more (Trustzone partner) gives AMD an advantage over Intel till the next Intel APU/SOC generation. Do OEMs get this?

 

[mrmt]

Windows 10 supporting HEVC encoding and decoding and the XB1, Kaveri and Carrizo supporting both without using Shaders as well as Gesture recognition and more (Trustzone partner) gives AMD an advantage over Intel till the next Intel APU/SOC generation. Do OEMs get this?

They do, that's why AMD doesn't sell. Intel CPUs also support these features you mentioned, and while AMD might have an efficiency edge on these tasks Intel has an edge in many others.

 

[jeff_rigby]

They do, that's why AMD doesn't sell. Intel CPUs also support these features you mentioned, and while AMD might have an efficiency edge on these tasks Intel has an edge in many others.

Intel has NO APU that doesn't need to use GPU shaders for Video Codecs. AMD has had a Trustzone security processor since 2010 and Intel I think something similar since 2013. The problem for AMD is that Windows 10 is the first OS that shows the difference between AMD and Intel.

Twitch is pretty much unusable while gaming on any other APU except AMD Kaveri, Carrizo, XB1 and PS4 and Game streaming using HEVC the same. That is not an efficiency difference.

Late this year Intel will release a new APU that corrects this feature difference. Timing is screwing AMD.

AMD is Barcelona-bound with the lowest power APUs yet

And those experiences can get even better when APU-powered hardware is mated with software from leaders like Adobe®, Bluestacks, eyeSight™, Microsoft, our ARM TrustZone® partners

AMD has a low power ARM SoC inside the X-86 APU which is used for DRM, Codecs, Gesture recognition and more without impacting game performance.

 

[mrmt]

streaming using HEVC the same. That is not an efficiency difference.

Late this year Intel will release a new APU that corrects this feature difference. Timing is screwing AMD.

So basically this won't be an edge for AMD after all.

The problem for AMD to differentiate in terms of features is that Intel is much bigger than AMD, so nobody will approach them to prop up a standard (as they have no scale) and because their R&D budget is too small whenever they develop something faster than their competitors we can be sure that a few quarters down the road competition will deploy something equivalent or better.

AMD has become too small to compete in the markets they are in. They could compete with Nvidia for sure, but they can't compete against Intel, let alone against Intel, Nvidia and ARM as they are doing now.

 

[jeff_rigby]

So basically this won't be an edge for AMD after all.

The problem for AMD to differentiate in terms of features is that Intel is much bigger than AMD, so nobody will approach them to prop up a standard (as they have no scale) and because their R&D budget is too small whenever they develop something faster than their competitors we can be sure that a few quarters down the road competition will deploy something equivalent or better.

AMD has become too small to compete in the markets they are in. They could compete with Nvidia for sure, but they can't compete against Intel, let alone against Intel, Nvidia and ARM as they are doing now.

It's exactly opposite, AMD spent the R&D in 2008 to support features that will be needed from late 2015 on (trustzone TEE, Gesture and voice recognition, codec and BlueStacks Android emulation) and Intel around 2013 through the end of 2015 for features that will be needed from late 2015 on. This should have been Dec 2012 and on but was delayed by a TiVo suit and more. Anyone with an AMD (from 2010) older APU can take advantage of Windows 10 while for Intel from 2013 on.

The public doesn't know this so it's useless as a marketing feature.

Power efficiency for Desktop computers is in part an evolution rewarded by Energy Star and in part required for the CE and IoT roadmap. Intel with their in house foundry has been leading the industry in power efficiency for X-86 while AMD has been including an ARM SoC inside X-86 APUs and dGPUs. Windows 10 finally fully uses those ARM SoCs.

The leaked 2010 Microsoft Xbox 720 YUKON powerpoint points this out. What's in it is inside the XB1 except for the BC processor which required an Interposer (industry wasn't ready) and Xtensa processors (Xtensa processors can emulate a GPU, perform as a DSP, as an accelerator for software Codecs, Gesture and Voice recognition and are 10X more efficient than a GPU at some tasks) instead of the second low power ARM GPU. The ARM buss with low power Xtensa processors are key to AMD designs.

It's in part Kaveri with some features like 32MB on die RAM that won't be seen till Zen in 2016 and in an APU till 2017.

HSAIL needed to manage the DSP (Xtensa processor), GPGPU and CPU choosing the best processor for the job and power gating the CPUs not being used. Larger GPUs in AMD APUs won't become a fixture till Vulcan and SPIR, VISC, HBM, HSAIL, clock and power scaling = 2017

 

[Chaotic0ne]

AMD is losing the gaming market big time with CPUs. They should release a new line of CPUs targeted towards gaming and similar related tasks. I've seen benchmarks were even an Intel I3 outperforms AMD's flagship CPU, and it doesn't have to be like that. Are they even trying to compete for that market?

 

[pablo87]

AMD has become too small to compete in the markets they are in. They could compete with Nvidia for sure, but they can't compete against Intel, let alone against Intel, Nvidia and ARM as they are doing now.

On this I agree with you 100%.

Its the story of AMD's life since they got that x86 cross license - an Intel wannabe without Intel's wherewithal. Intel has probably made more mistakes than AMD (they're making one right now), its just that they can afford them.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Maybe things will change with Windows 10, but so far seems to me that the PC as an integration with TVs has not really caught on. The cable companies themselves just provide the dvr equipment nicely integrated into the system. I am sure most readers of this forum are technically literate and can figure out how to integrate an HTPC with the system, but for the average user, it just seems like it will be much simpler use the equipment provided by the cable company. They already provide DVR functionality, ability to record multiple channels, pause, on demand content, etc.

 

[mrmt]

HSAIL needed to manage the DSP (Xtensa processor), GPGPU and CPU choosing the best processor for the job and power gating the CPUs not being used. Larger GPUs in AMD APUs won't become a fixture till Vulcan and SPIR, VISC, HBM, HSAIL, clock and power scaling = 2017

HSA is nowhere close to prime time on the market, it is basically turning into HSAFAIL.

 

[dark zero]

On this I agree with you 100%.

Its the story of AMD's life since they got that x86 cross license - an Intel wannabe without Intel's wherewithal. Intel has probably made more mistakes than AMD (they're making one right now), its just that they can afford them.

And that's I was saying that they could end their own arch without losing much since they are on other places too like Routers, Mobile, etc. And how to end that? By replacing with it's succesor... Just like Itanium. And since now there are not competitors, they can try to do that again and finally succeed.

AMD is about to die and when they goes bankrupt is the end of the x86 we know. VIA won't last enough since Intel could drop their license due goverment issues (yeah VIA are being helped by ZhaoXin, Chinese goverment company, more info, here http://en.zhaoxin.com/site/introduction ). And about the very minor vendors... Well they won't need the licence Anyways. Intel pays them some millions and they are out.

And since ARM is there, they could defend themselves to not to being slashed into smaller companies. Also they could help with the US government and that's all. No one would touch them for a while.

Yeah sounds extremely gloomy, but times change and seems that ARM will be the new x86 (they are dominating on mobiles by now and mobiles are the future). Times changes. And AMD didn't changed on time and seems that nVIDIA is following that destiny.

 

[jeff_rigby]

HSA is nowhere close to prime time on the market, it is basically turning into HSAFAIL.

HSA is the hardware design and HSAIL is the language and engine that can use the hardware. It only needs to be implemented by 2017 on APUs or SoCs with large GPUs and it appears on track. Smaller APUs and SoCs do not need HSAIL, they just need something like Windows 10 as a "Trustzone Partner" for AMD. Eventually ARM and AMD will support HSAIL as they are both implementing HSA designs.

As an example of what's coming with Sony using previous posts as background; everyone including PCs will support this:

For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB.

Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC has a picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables. The 2010 Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (XB1) has the HD Homerun listed third row down, third column from the left. These two tuners were chosen by the W3C's TV working group as standards and their control schemes will be used as the APIs for the Network and USB tuner control standards supported by W3C extensions to Javascript.

HTML5 (W3C extensions already mentioned as supported by Android L) Tuner support for Cable also means Tuner support for Antenna TV. Sony now has GetTV on OTA (Antenna TV) in I think 130 markets and is starting a IPTV network, it's rolling out in larger markets now.

Sony is starting their own IPTV network and wants as many Playstation game consoles as possible in Living rooms and that includes the PS3. DLNA CVP2 and ATSC 2.0 support gets the game consoles in the living room used as IPTV STBs. I would prefer a PS3 or PS4 in the living room and the Cable TV DVR in the bedroom as my DLNA server doesn't work with the Cable TV DVR although I think that is changing.

The delay in getting PS3 updates is related to Playready. Why else would Sony be implementing Playready in the PS3? Apps can contain their own DRM and Marlin is used in Japan. Only for DLNA CVP2 is Playready a requirement and the platform must be certified as DRM secure by DTLA and DLNA which requires secure embedded and middleware and a HTML5 DLNA CVP2 APP using the embedded and middleware routines.

Edit: Note: Playready is supposed to be ONLY on embedded platforms where the manufacturer supports a root of trust boot and embeds and protects encryption keys, codecs and Player with the player required to support Metadata DRM rules which are also encrypted as part of the Content. Netflix for instance, had a self contained player and DRM scheme and if DRMtoday is correct (No Playready embedded support in the PS3) then any IPTV app for the PS3 that claimed it was using Playready was not using an embedded version but a self contained Playready DRM. This might explain Comcast not allowing a PS3 HBO Go for instance.


Sony is set to implement four business models for IPTV, they do have GetTV in those same markets mentioned for Playstation Vue and it's a OTA Network. All models take advantage of h.265 (HEVC).

1) DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath support for Cable TV channels with Sony offering VOD movies and TV programs in addition to those offered by Cable TV. Temporarily using Cable TV DVRs to convert RF to IPTV in the home and after 2016 using Sony Passage and USB or Network tuners with "Certified" DRM platforms and DSS (DSTAC's recommended Downloadable Security Scheme) which are also Vidipath. This is the transition scheme till consumers have STBs and cable develops it's infrastructure to handle all IPTV traffic (about 2017+). This is also in one of the Sony Passage PDFs.

2) Playstation Vue for the cable cutters in major cities with faster Internet and trunk lines that can carry the traffic.

3) OTA (Antenna TV) Media Hub ATSC 2.0 support for those not on cable and using even a slower Internet service like DSL. NRT or Sideloading movies downloaded at DSL speeds for later viewing. This goes along with Sony's GetTV OTA. All TVs except newer Smart TVs will require a Vidipath STB connected to them with either network tuners or USB tuners which are seen supported for Cable in the Sony Passage PDFs. A Vidipath STB or TV also has support for ATSC 2.0.

OTA (Antenna TV) for those with faster Internet; in addition to the above, Playstation Vue will be offered. Multiple networks are offering unbundled VOD channels for this model...so after 2016 a person on an Antenna can receive on average 35 channels from the antenna with some of them offering (ATSC 2.0) 1080P with S3D in addition to XTV support and their choice of Networks via VOD unbundled and untill recently only available on Cable TV.

4) Satellite whole home DVR DLNA RVU/RUI (Essentially DLNA CVP2 for satellite) with slower DSL or Cable Internet. This is already in place with the PS3 supporting DLNA RVU.

This is the transition scheme till consumers have STBs and cable develops it's infrastructure to handle all IPTV traffic (about 2017+). Everyone will need a STB (game console) or Smart TV by 2017+ even OTA for ATSC 2.0 and it's predicted that there will be 240 million new internet connected VIDEO platforms by that date. This generation should never see a dropoff in sales for the game consoles, it should increase by about 2016.

For Antenna TV the Electronic program guide can be built using the FCC required data that is included in the Video stream but if you want Voice, Gesture and Second screen support then Sony, for instance will have to provide this...for a Fee and the UI will include other services and Search features.

The PS4 and XB1 will have DVR support for Antenna TV and Cable. Multiple Tuners, Network DLNA servers, combo DLNA/DVR servers will be sold beginning in 2016 as every Vidipath CE platform should have Javascript support for Tuners and DLNA support is a given even if there is no Tuner or guide support.

These TV use cases by the W3C are also coming:

Contents
1. "Use Case One – Tablet Joins Home Network"
2. "Use Case Two – TV Triggers 2nd Screen"
3. "Use Case Three – Tablet EPG"
4. "Use Case Four – Content Sharing"
5. "Use Case Five – Content Search"
6. "Use Case Six – Tuner Control thru Web Application"
7. "Use Case Seven – Channel Bounded Applications"
8. "Use Case Eight – Download and Go"
9. "Use Case Nine – Watch and Record"
10. "Use Case Ten – Sync Among Browser- and non-Browser Devices"
11. "Use Case Eleven – Parental Control in Content Access"
12. "Use Case Twelve – Multiscreen Advertisement"

All AMD APUs can support the above with Windows 10 and my view has PCs supporting a large percentage of the 240 million new connected TVs by 2017. You have to add that Windows 10 will support DVR and 4K blu-ray using standard blu-ray drives and plans are for Playready ND to support streaming 1080P and 4K over the home network from those drives either directly or from the PC Hard Disk.

AMD CEO mentions long term turnaround and this is part of what they are counting on.

 

[Genx87]

Maybe things will change with Windows 10, but so far seems to me that the PC as an integration with TVs has not really caught on. The cable companies themselves just provide the dvr equipment nicely integrated into the system. I am sure most readers of this forum are technically literate and can figure out how to integrate an HTPC with the system, but for the average user, it just seems like it will be much simpler use the equipment provided by the cable company. They already provide DVR functionality, ability to record multiple channels, pause, on demand content, etc.

I tried to build an HTPC 10 years ago. Then I found TiVo. Did everything I wanted without the cost nor hassle. Today like you said Cable companies provide the device to do all of it. Next I expect TVs to have it all built in.

 

[buletaja]

MS hold a secret
but also MS has IHV to think.

AMD or MS dont want to call X1 as nextgen game processor in prestige event recently in 2014, if X1 is jaguar

X1 has HP-APU
AMD categorized HP-APU only for datacenter/supercomputing usage

look at this clue
plus why MS can enabling BC from nowhere?
because there is something hide in plain sight on Xbox One

i agree with this slide
especially as the keynote at IEEE is categorized as future System/Possible Future

*)The Conference : http://vcew.org/CE-Vail-2014-Program.pdf
*) the PDF material from the event, is currently off limit (NDA)

 

[railven]

MS hold a secret
but also MS has IHV to think.

AMD or MS dont want to call X1 as nextgen game processor in prestige event recently in 2014, if X1 is jaguar

X1 has HP-APU
AMD categorized HP-APU only for datacenter/supercomputing usage

look at this clue
plus why MS can enabling BC from nowhere?
because there is something hide in plain sight on Xbox One

i agree with this slide
especially as the keynote at IEEE is categorized as future System/Possible Future

*)The Conference : http://vcew.org/CE-Vail-2014-Program.pdf
*) the PDF material from the event, is currently off limit (NDA)

I know that incoherent babbling sounded familiar!

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/189579.html

Haha, MisterX is considered the most delusion Xbox Fanboy, if* no the best Sony Troll/Fanboy.

 

[Dresdenboy]

I know that incoherent babbling sounded familiar!

http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/189579.html

Haha, MisterX is considered the most delusion Xbox Fanboy, if* no the best Sony Troll/Fanboy.

I'd even add to that, that the MisterX logo looks Russian as does the username "buletaja".
Maybe you've just become a witness of the way how a new religion emerges, as usually driven by hope. Well, no, actually I think this is the enjoyment of some youngsters. Let them have that joy.

There are worse things out there like big investment/trading banks using FPGA accelerated Gauss Copula functions to get wrong predictions much faster than before...

 

[NTMBK]

Oh heck, please don't drag the MisterX delusions into this thread. He just flat out makes up hardware.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Oh heck, please don't drag the MisterX delusions into this thread. He just flat out makes up hardware.

Too late.

 

[mrmt]

There are worse things out there like big investment/trading banks using FPGA accelerated Gauss Copula functions to get wrong predictions much faster than before...

I would say that some will be even more wrong than before, because they will use some of the extra power they got putting even junk in the models.

 

[buletaja]

you have to check the link by yourself
http://vcew.org/CE-Vail-2014-Program.pdf

so Jeff can post a patent, but no proof ?
but that actual keynote is a fake ? LOL

from Trinity Designer & John Sell not a proof?
check the link
"Xbox One Next gen Processor"
that is not fake !!!


we are educated guys here
all is linked to real link

Linkedin is real, just searh Kryptos HP-APU in linkedin

also unless Jaguar suddenly categorized as HP-APU
good debate is when we are debating from real source then assumption based on that

 

[NTMBK]

you have to check the link by yourself
http://vcew.org/CE-Vail-2014-Program.pdf

so Jeff can post a patent, but no proof ?
but that actual keynote is a fake ? LOL

from Trinity Designer & John Sell not a proof?
check the link
"Xbox One Next gen Processor"
that is not fake !!!


we are educated guys here
all is linked to real link

Linkedin is real, just searh Kryptos HP-APU in linkedin

also unless Jaguar suddenly categorized as HP-APU
good debate is when we are debating from real source then assumption based on that

Oh for the love of god.

The XBox One counts as a "high performance SoC" because it is a huge, ~125W part with hundreds of shaders, 8 cores, 256-bit memory interface, and a big chunk of ESRAM on it. Stop inventing random chips that don't exist.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Oh for the love of god.

The XBox One counts as a "high performance SoC" because it is a huge, ~125W part with hundreds of shaders, 8 cores, 256-bit memory interface, and a big chunk of ESRAM on it. Stop inventing random chips that don't exist.

There is one custom add-on to Jaguar in the XB1 APU and that is a custom connection to the ESRAM from the Jaguar CPU. It could support VISC like functionality and it's similar to what Zen is getting with a large ESRAM cache in addition to DDR4.

Nintendo NX is likely to have the same and that could allow it to emulate the Power PC in the WiiU. Since the XB1 is doing this for Xbox 360 BC on the XB1, I think that sorta indicates it's possible. The only speculation is that the custom Jaguar to ESRAM is needed.

 

[jeff_rigby]

you have to check the link by yourself
http://vcew.org/CE-Vail-2014-Program.pdf

so Jeff can post a patent, but no proof ?
but that actual keynote is a fake ? LOL

from Trinity Designer & John Sell not a proof?
check the link
"Xbox One Next gen Processor"
that is not fake !!!

we are educated guys here
all is linked to real link

Linkedin is real, just searh Kryptos HP-APU in linkedin

also unless Jaguar suddenly categorized as HP-APU
good debate is when we are debating from real source then assumption based on that

Sony and Microsoft took SOME AMD 2016 features and implemented them in 2013 Game Consoles, nothing more. It's not a super APU, nothing like what's coming in 2016 when everything planned is implemented.

Sure it's likely "Xbox One Next gen Processor" means Microsoft took a expensive AMD 2016 feature and implemented it... giving them the ability to support a 2016 feature called VISC which increases single thread IPC with multiple CPUs and as a side benefit allows X-86 CPUs to emulate RISC processors (ARM and Power PC) . This is a must have feature when AMD implements efficiencies in that many slower CPUs are more efficient than a few higher clocked CPUs. AMD's Zen must support VISC! The Zen CPUs will be smaller slower clocked (with turbo and power scaling). The Jaguar 4 CPU to a package is the same as Zen but with ZEN blocks of 8 will likely be the rule with multiples, 8 or 16 CPUs probably due to embedded on chip power supplies designed for 8 CPU blocks.

VISC designs feature 4 virtual CPUs and require a minimum number of real world CPUs for the most efficiency. MisterCteam was posting Microsoft studies on SemiAccurate about 4 CPU packages which I think applies to this.

There is a hardware, software and marketing roadmap which makes it seem that both Sony and Microsoft are taking forever to implement features in the PS3, PS4 and XB1. The same roadmap applies to AMD APUs coming late 2016 for 2017. I'm not privy to this roadmap and have to use Patents, whitepapers and the latest, presentations to the FCC DSTAC by Sony and Playready 3 + Playready ND whitepapers from Microsoft. These confirm my views on the Sony and Microsoft Media roadmaps and in part how they will implement them.

I analyze pictures of the PS4 custom HDMI and notice that the traces to the HDMI chip are exposed. That was missed by everybody, it's a big no no and not allowed if HDCP encryption takes place in the HDMI chip. So this means the HDCP encryption takes place in the PS4 southbridge not the HDMI chip. The custom Panasonic HDMI chip then only needs to pass through negotiations to Southbridge. This is how the PS4 has a HDMI 2.0 to support it being a 4k Blu-ray player. Modern standard Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray and HEVC is supported by Tensilica-Xtensa accelerators in the Southbridge.