AMD destroys Nvidia at Bitcoin mining, can the gap ever be bridged?

[badb0y]

It sounded like an attempt at trolling, talking about AMD spending money giving away games.
The broken english, and the total BS sounding post.

Let me try to clarify because I somewhate understood what he was trying to say.

I have $7000 in free computer gear all because of bitcoin mining. AMD should buy bitcoins to keep the price high so more people buy their cards to mine bitcoins. How much money has AMD wasted on the bundles? They should have just bought bitcoins instead to keep the prices of bitcoins high and people would to buy their cards.
Basically he's saying AMD should manipulate the bitcoin market instead of spending money on game bundles.

My $149 MSRP Sapphire HD 7790 cost me $111 after rebates, promos and selling the bundle that came with it. I put it in my bit coin farm on April 2nd and I have earned $49 on it in about 16 days of mining. I don't know how long the bitcoin craze will last but unless you are rich nVidia cards cost twice as much as AMD cards!(false)

My HD 7990 cost me $899 plus $63 of tax on November 28. I sold the bundle that came with it. So it was about $870. It has earned over $600 in bitcoins so the cost is $270 for me out of pocket!

How much is a GTX 690 right now $999? I don't play games at demanding settings but who in their right mind would choose a $999 GTX 690 over a $270 HD 7990? By the way the price of bitcoins is back up to $110(per)

Hope that helps lol.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Even now it makes more sense to buy low, sell high with bitcoins, as it always did.

The thing with purchasing AMD cards was you'd still have the fall back of gaming if the bitcoins fell through, but the real money was always in straight up purchasing coins for cash.

You can't even make enough to buy a 12 pack of Coke a day at the current rates I see with a 7950..

I thought it was going to be better, but when I got my 7950 the payout was just as bad, though if I kept mining I might have been able to get 2 coins in that month right before diff doubled again (now takes 1 month for 1 coin, soon to be 2 months 1 coin @ 1200MHz). Had I minted two coins, and by the gods sold them for $250 each around the peak I would have paid for the electricity and the card, instead I just played video games.

In hindsight though, had I just bought 10 coins at $30 each at the time instead of spending $300 for a video card to never play games I would have rolled it into a $2200 profit while playing 0 games (assuming I had the forsight/luck to hold until it peaked prior to it crashing).

Even now looking back I'm glad I bought the 7950 and stopped mining to play video games.





Point being, even if Nvidia shot past AMD in hash rate it wouldn't matter, it's a fools market to mine.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Let me try to clarify because I somewhate understood what he was trying to say.



Hope that helps lol.

Well, yeah but AMD is in the business to sell cards to for gaming. That's how they are marketed, that's how they are really sold.

 

[sandorski]

Well, yeah but AMD is in the business to sell cards to for gaming. That's how they are marketed, that's how they are really sold.

Not to mention that getting caught doing such a thing would have dire consequences.

 

[Eureka]

How popular was BTC mining, anyway? What was the most number of individual miners?

I can't imagine it being a significant portion of AMD's userbase.

 

[Will Robinson]

I have 7000 in free computer gear. all due to bit coins. amd should buy bit coins and drive the price up so that people buy their gear to mine. How much has amd spent giving away games when all they need do is keep the bit coin price high enough to justify purchase of a amd gpu.

My 149 list sapphire hd7790 cost me 111 after rebates promoes and selling the game that came with it. I put it in my bit coin farm on april 2. I have earned 49 bucks on it in about 16 days. I do not know how long this will last but unless you are a hard core gamer with money to burn Nvidia is 2x the price of amd.

My hd7990 cost me 899 plus 63 tax on nov 28. I sold the games with it. So it was about 870. It has earned over 600 so cost is 270.

how much is a gtx 690? 999. I do not game at a high enough level, but how many people given a choice would pay 999 for a gtx690 vs 270 for a hd7990? BTW coins are back up to 110 usd

That is just incredible...well done man.:awe:
Great return on investment and fun watching and exploring a novel thing like BitCoin Mining.:thumbsup:

 

[dualsmp]

My 149 list sapphire hd7790 cost me 111 after rebates promoes and selling the game that came with it. I put it in my bit coin farm on april 2. I have earned 49 bucks on it in about 16 days.

If you don't mind how are you earning that much in 16 days? The 7790 mines around 300 Mhash overclocked, but I'm not following how it's already raked in almost $50.

 

[Will Robinson]

Even now it makes more sense to buy low, sell high with bitcoins, as it always did.

The thing with purchasing AMD cards was you'd still have the fall back of gaming if the bitcoins fell through, but the real money was always in straight up purchasing coins for cash.

You can't even make enough to buy a 12 pack of Coke a day at the current rates I see with a 7950..

I thought it was going to be better, but when I got my 7950 the payout was just as bad, though if I kept mining I might have been able to get 2 coins in that month right before diff doubled again (now takes 1 month for 1 coin, soon to be 2 months 1 coin @ 1200MHz). Had I minted two coins, and by the gods sold them for $250 each around the peak I would have paid for the electricity and the card, instead I just played video games.

In hindsight though, had I just bought 10 coins at $30 each at the time instead of spending $300 for a video card to never play games I would have rolled it into a $2200 profit while playing 0 games (assuming I had the forsight/luck to hold until it peaked prior to it crashing).

Even now looking back I'm glad I bought the 7950 and stopped mining to play video games.





Point being, even if Nvidia shot past AMD in hash rate it wouldn't matter, it's a fools market to mine.

It's probably only a fools market if you lose money...otherwise its a novel and interesting hobby with a chance of making a nice little profit for your efforts.

 

[hokies83]

How popular was BTC mining, anyway? What was the most number of individual miners?

I can't imagine it being a significant portion of AMD's userbase.

This just on the Pool im in...

Stratum connections: 25501 Getwork connections:5312

 

[Soulkeeper]

Delete

 

[BallaTheFeared]

It's probably only a fools market if you lose money...otherwise its a novel and interesting hobby with a chance of making a nice little profit for your efforts.

I guess, like watching paint dry!

 

[blastingcap]

If you don't mind how are you earning that much in 16 days? The 7790 mines around 300 Mhash overclocked, but I'm not following how it's already raked in almost $50.

I'm assuming that he's not factoring in cost of electricity, cost of A/C if applicable, depreciation. Also, prices have fallen a lot since he calculated his profit, and difficulty continues to skyrocket, especially as ASICs get added to the system. Unless prices rebound strongly to offset the increasing difficulty, buying a GPU today will not be as profitable.

It's really turning into an ASIC-or-go-home kind of environment for mining, which is why the title of this thread is stupid... even if NV caught up in a month, it would be too late because GPU mining is already on its way out. No GPU, even AMD GPUs, can really compete with ASICs (chips built specifically to mine bitcoins and which are more than 10 times more efficient at it), and ASICs are already starting to arrive.

 

[x3sphere]

If you don't mind how are you earning that much in 16 days? The 7790 mines around 300 Mhash overclocked, but I'm not following how it's already raked in almost $50.

Well Bitcoins were worth $200+ a pop a few weeks ago, if he sold the coins he made then that seems right.

 

[3DVagabond]

Source http://www.extremetech.com/computing/153467-amd-destroys-nvidia-bitcoin-mining

If you typically follow GPU performance as it related to gaming but have become curious about Bitcoin mining, you’ve probably noticed and been surprised by the fact that AMD GPUs are the uncontested performance leaders in the market. This is in stark contrast to the PC graphics business, where AMD’s HD 7000 series has been playing a defensive game against Nvidia’s GK104 / GeForce 600 family of products. In Bitcoin mining, the situation is almost completely reversed — the Radeon 7970 is capable of 550MHash/second, while the GTX 680 is roughly 1/5 as fast.

So, bitcoin mining and gaming performance are reversed are they? I didn't realize the 680 was 5x faster than the 7970 in gaming (sic). Seriously, what a crock of crap.

I know you aren't saying this hokies83. You are just quoting the article.

 

[hokies83]

No my overclocked 7950s out perform my overclocked 680s in every game i play besides Crysis 3.

 

[dust]

It's probably only a fools market if you lose money...otherwise its a novel and interesting hobby with a chance of making a nice little profit for your efforts.

I hate the guy you replied to,but he's got a point

 

[ShintaiDK]

Bitcoin is only faster on Radeon cards due to a SHA256 instruction (BIT_ALIGN_INT). I doubt nVidia is going to implement that just to satisfy the niche of bitminers. Also FPGAs seems to own bitmining, not GPUs.

 

[ViRGE]

Bitcoin is only faster on Radeon cards due to a SHA256 instruction (BIT_ALIGN_INT). I doubt nVidia is going to implement that just to satisfy the niche of bitminers. Also FPGAs seems to own bitmining, not GPUs.

Makes sense. This is the same reason then for why AMD cards beat NVIDIA cards years ago in older encryption scenarios such as Dnet's RC5-72 contest. BTC favors fast integer rotate instructions (ROTL/ROTR), just like RC5-72 did. NVIDIA never had (and still doesn't have) a fast hardware path for those instructions.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Makes sense. This is the same reason then for why AMD cards beat NVIDIA cards years ago in older encryption scenarios such as Dnet's RC5-72 contest. BTC favors fast integer rotate instructions (ROTL/ROTR), just like RC5-72 did. NVIDIA never had (and still doesn't have) a fast hardware path for those instructions.

Exactly. I am sure if nVidia wanted, and thought it was important, then it would have been implemented it long ago.

But again with these FPGA ans ASIC setups, why even use GPUs.

 

[Rikard]

This is in stark contrast to the PC graphics business, where AMD’s HD 7000 series has been playing a defensive game against Nvidia’s GK104 / GeForce 600 family of products.

What a strange statement! I wonder on what planet this guy was living on the last year

Just curious, but would not the only metric to matter be power consumption per bitcoin?

No it is only one of the relevant metrics. What if you have free or cheap electricity? Other valid metrics are hash per hardware cost, hash per PCI-e slot, etc.

 

[pandemonium]

That article is just proof that bitcoin is no longer an underground movement (it hasn't been for a while, but this really seals the certainty). It's purpose is laughable to me.

 

[Rikard]

Even now it makes more sense to buy low, sell high with bitcoins, as it always did.

The thing with purchasing AMD cards was you'd still have the fall back of gaming if the bitcoins fell through, but the real money was always in straight up purchasing coins for cash.

You can't even make enough to buy a 12 pack of Coke a day at the current rates I see with a 7950..

I thought it was going to be better, but when I got my 7950 the payout was just as bad, though if I kept mining I might have been able to get 2 coins in that month right before diff doubled again (now takes 1 month for 1 coin, soon to be 2 months 1 coin @ 1200MHz). Had I minted two coins, and by the gods sold them for $250 each around the peak I would have paid for the electricity and the card, instead I just played video games.

In hindsight though, had I just bought 10 coins at $30 each at the time instead of spending $300 for a video card to never play games I would have rolled it into a $2200 profit while playing 0 games (assuming I had the forsight/luck to hold until it peaked prior to it crashing).

Even now looking back I'm glad I bought the 7950 and stopped mining to play video games.





Point being, even if Nvidia shot past AMD in hash rate it wouldn't matter, it's a fools market to mine.

I partly agree with you. If you have good business instincts it is better to invest the money in speculation, be it bitcoin or stocks or whatever. You will likely turn a larger profit faster. But you run the risk of losing it all. If you already own the hardware, all it costs you is the electricity so the potential loss if the value of the coins fall to zero is much smaller than the potential gain. It is a gamble but the odds are in the miner's favor!

The problem is the slow returns. I make about $4/day now after deducting electricity. Fine, that is more than $1000/year if the prices and difficulty would stay the same (which they won't). However, I save more money by buying a cheaper lunch at work, or skipping coffee and desert. Or take the bike to work instead of the car. You could of course hoard the coins waiting for them their value to skyrocket, but that applies to any commodity. What I am saying is that mining is profitable, but there are much better ways to get rich...

 

[blastingcap]

But again with these FPGA ans ASIC setups, why even use GPUs.

At this late stage in the game, only fools would buy GPUs for the sole purpose of mining coins. Smart money is on FPGAs or ASICs or trading BTC directly. I made more trading BTC today than I did mining, by a factor of 8.

To analogize, bitcoin mining is like a gold rush, and the initial wave of the gold rush is almost over. Nowadays, only fools would buy pans to pan for gold--you used to be able to make decent money doing it, until 10,000 other people showed up at the river and picked all the low-hanging fruit, so to speak. So these days with gold so difficult to mine, the smart miners buy machines to sift through dirt 10-20 times more efficiently (FPGAs and ASICs). And some people do even better trading gold on Wall Street.

 

[Rikard]

At this late stage in the game, only fools would buy GPUs for the sole purpose of mining coins. Smart money is on FPGAs or ASICs or trading BTC directly. I made more trading BTC today than I did mining, by a factor of 8.

To analogize, bitcoin mining is like a gold rush, and the initial wave of the gold rush is almost over. Nowadays, only fools would buy pans to pan for gold--you used to be able to make decent money doing it, until 10,000 other people showed up at the river and picked all the low-hanging fruit, so to speak. So these days with gold so difficult to mine, the smart miners buy machines to sift through dirt 10-20 times more efficiently (FPGAs and ASICs). And some people do even better trading gold on Wall Street.

You sound like you know the future, but you do not. Right now the USD is rotten, EUR is rotten, CHF is tied to EUR, most other EU currencies are basing their BNP on exports to EUR or USD countries, and even the CNY is rotten. Investors are looking for safe havens since the stock markets are all rotten too. Now imagine what would happen if the troika decides to pull their Cyprus trick on a country like Spain or Italy... With more people fleeing to BTC, BTC will gain in usage as a currency instead of just being used as a commodity. This is much bigger than some people mining on ASICs, and we do not know if this will crash or take off a year from now.

 

[blastingcap]

You sound like you know the future, but you do not. Right now the USD is rotten, EUR is rotten, CHF is tied to EUR, most other EU currencies are basing their BNP on exports to EUR or USD countries, and even the CNY is rotten. Investors are looking for safe havens since the stock markets are all rotten too. Now imagine what would happen if the troika decides to pull their Cyprus trick on a country like Spain or Italy... With more people fleeing to BTC, BTC will gain in usage as a currency instead of just being used as a commodity. This is much bigger than some people mining on ASICs, and we do not know if this will crash or take off a year from now.

I am not claiming anything about BTC price, I am saying difficulty will continue to skyrocket and that is a fact. Avalon has already shipped their first wave of ASICs out and that doubled difficulty... two more waves are coming, and the other ASIC makers are trying to ship as well. Plus a lot of coverage has gotten a lot of people to turn on their GPUs and even buy GPUs to try to eke out a few coins before difficulty rises so high that even $100 BTC isn't enough to cover electricity costs, particularly in the summertime when the waste heat is unwanted.

Under these tough mining conditions, imho, only a fool would buy a GPU for the sole purpose of mining today. Better to buy a FPGA/ASIC if you insist on mining. And if you really want to make big money, and you have the skill, trade BTC directly. In real life, miners got lucky once in a while but weren't really that rich, but Wall Street has always been full of rich people. Chew on that.

As for your rant against fiat... save it for someone who cares. F*** the EU, they are paying for the sins of decades of overspending, and unlike the US, the Euro is not the world's reserve currency. Most EU countries have histories of exploiting the rest of the world, even worse than the USA, and I have no sympathy for them. And the ones I am most sympathetic to (e.g., Norway and other countries that didn't kill and colonize like the British, French, Germans, Spaniards, etc. did) are the best positioned to tough it out anyway (Norway even had the good sense to keep its Krone). I am already hedged against the Euro collapsing. Guess what appreciates in a hurry under that scenario? No, not BTC. Yes, the US dollar, and to a lesser extent a few other currencies like the Yen. Gold will actually suffer, at least at first, in the USD-denominated sense. And yes USD is not invulnerable either, but I have hedges for that, and it sure as hell isn't BTC. If the USD implodes, that's game over for the world economy. A LOT of Really Bad S*** would happen, and people will be forced to sell of stuff like BTC just to pay their taxes, rent, and other fiat-denominated must-pays. BTC is far from a safe haven. At least Gold doesn't need electricity to exist. Nor do brass, lead, and steel.

With all due respect, you sound like one of the True Believers at bitcointalk.org. It's a self-selecting Libertarian echo chamber over there. Here's the problem: BTC has some severe vulnerabilities and the fact of the matter is that it is the Friendster of would-be digital currencies. The sheer number of people who did NOT use Friendster meant that alt-social-networks had plenty of room to grow and compete, and Myspace kicked Friendster's ass and even they weren't so big that other competitors couldn't get in and beat up on Myspace (Facebook, Google+). BTC only has value because people use it and it has some critical mass, but don't think for a second that it is 100% safe from destruction by other digital currencies that spring up. And even the 21M limit is not inviolate--Forbes had a great writeup on why (hint: how did we avert the blockchain fork crisis in March? Those very same programmers and the de facto mining cartel can also get together to do hijack the blockchain in theory).

Then there are other technical matters like the agonizing 10 minute long (on average) first confirmation duration (please don't tell me to use BitInstant or something, as that charges a fee and defeats one of the purposes of BTC in the first place--zero or very low transaction costs... it also introduces an additional element of risk and point of failure), the fact that with so few big pools it's actually possible to 51% attack it today. It won't happen so long as the big mining pools deem it more profitable to be honest, but man, that's a huge flaw and we better hope that nobody ever manages to hack a major pool and then DDOS or hack a few other pools, because that's all you need to hijack the entire blockchain. A vindictive major pool operator could probably do it, too, just DDOS the other big pools and voila, you have 51% hashing power yourself. Until people get off the big pools and thus make mining less concentrated, this vulnerability will continue to plague BTC.

Then there is the deflationary problem that causes more hoarding than spending as a currency. At least you have the good sense to admit that BTC is just a commodity right now, and not a real currency, due to its wild gyrations in price that render it useless as an actual unit of measure. Today, if you go to any major merchant that takes BTC, they will almost surely calculate the price in fiat and then quote you the BTC price at current exchange rates. I can't blame them, given how volatile BTC prices are. Could be $200 when I wake up tomorrow, could be $20. If BTC were a real currency, they'd quote you in BTC without resorting to figuring out the fiat-BTC exchange rate and quoting you the BTC equivalent of the fiat number. It's simply not there yet and may never get there, or it might.

In sum, BTC is highly speculative and can go to zero. On the other hand, it might somehow fend off all other comers and become quite valuable--the Facebook of digital currencies instead of the Friendster of digital currencies. Here's the thing though: if you are a True Believer that BTC will inevitably be worth millions each, why are you dicking around with GPU mining? Go big or go home: that means buy an ASIC, or if you can't, then buy BTC directly. Seriously, just buy and hold, as even those that bought at the previous peak around $30 are doing just fine now. And if you're not a true believer, well, don't invest more than you can afford to lose. And I'd still much rather have an ASIC than waste capital buying nearly-obsolete GPU mining equipment.

Anyway, we have gone too far off topic so if you want to talk about this some more, feel free to PM me.