AMD @ GDC: Partnership with MS next-generation graphics.

[PPB]

Are we still pretending Mantle isn't in more than 2 games currently? And that not even the full 30% of AMD's marketshare has the hardware needed to use it?

You tell me, are we still pretending we can call something vaporware when you can actually use it right now, and defend all MS's claims in a few slides just because it involves the company some people happen to like so much?


Some guys like facts here, so let me show you a pretty straight forward one:

Number of shipped games running the API?
- Mantle: 2
- DX12: 0, but somehow a bunch of slides make up for that.

 

[ASM-coder]

So now MS and Partners invented an API we didn't need, because DX11 multithreading was fine, just to make AMD's crappie CPU's and APU's look good, and AMD stole it from them? Yeah, I can follow the logic... No wait, no I can't.

Logic doesn't play into that type of thinking. When you argue an untenable
position, you start making sh*t up.

 

[Mand]

Some guys like facts here, so let me show you a pretty straight forward one:

Number of shipped games running the API?
- Mantle: 2
- DX12: 0, but somehow a bunch of slides make up for that.

The reason people seem to think some slides make up for that is this question:

Number of to-be-shipped games running the API?
- Mantle: ??? Dunno, depends on how many devs decide they like it.
- DX12: Lots, because it's DX.

 

[AnandThenMan]

The reason people seem to think some slides make up for that is this question:

Number of to-be-shipped games running the API?
- Mantle: ??? Dunno, depends on how many devs decide they like it.
- DX12: Lots, because it's DX.

Mantle will be in just about every major game engine before DX12 even ships.

 

[monstercameron]

mantle is dx12, can no one see that? why would AMD promote it and invest in it if only for a 1.5yr space of time only to abandon it??

 

[AnandThenMan]

mantle is dx12, can no one see that?

Sure as heck looks like it. If it's not, then MS has taken plagiarism to a whole new level. You could swap the word DX12 with Mantle and it would read exactly the same.

 

[PPB]

mantle is dx12, can no one see that? why would AMD promote it and invest in it if only for a 1.5yr space of time only to abandon it??

Because they are evil. They stole the hard work of MS all these 4 years to come to market first with a half assed product that only ships in 1,5 games (because BF4 is so broken ATM), only works with 0.0001% of the shipped hardware but in reality VLIW4 surely works, but those bastards are forcing you to buy overpriced hardware because of cryptocoin mining.


Wow, making irrational hyperboles denigrating AMD is much simpler than I tought, now I realise why there are so many minions doing that lately.

 

[ASM-coder]

Number of to-be-shipped games running the API?

But when and on what OS version(s) leaves enough speculative area to hide
a Boeing 777.

 

[parvadomus]

mantle is dx12, can no one see that? why would AMD promote it and invest in it if only for a 1.5yr space of time only to abandon it??

Cause fanboys are blind, if DX12 was being developed for years AMD wouldnt launch an API near DX12 arrival

 

[PPB]

Here's hoping that the new OS that we will be shafted over to upgrade to get DX12 has start button built in. Really that's the only concern for me right now.

If it doesnt have, well, I have 2 years to get used to the idea of an OS with no built in start button. I think I have time to adjust

 

[Stuka87]

Are we still pretending Mantle isn't in more than 2 games currently? And that not even the full 30% of AMD's marketshare has the hardware needed to use it?

Why are you saying AMD's full market share does not support it? Every GPU they sell supports Mantle (Well, except for the super low end ones which are still VLIW4).

All market share numbers out there are for sales during that quarter. It does not take old existing hardware into account at all.

 

[AnandThenMan]

There is one way DX12 will never be able to compete with Mantle. DX is Windows exclusive, Mantle can be made to run on anything. Well really MS could make DX available for other OS platforms but never will.

So what about the STEAM OS, will we see DX12 in that? Nope.

 

[PPB]

The reason people seem to think some slides make up for that is this question:

Number of to-be-shipped games running the API?
- Mantle: ??? Dunno, depends on how many devs decide they like it.
- DX12: Lots, because it's DX.

Can you disclose the marketshare of DX11 games vs DX9 right now? That is, after almost 5 years of DX11 release.

Also, let me just leave this here, so you can draw conclusions about the time required to make an API, according to wikipedia:

On the "DirectX 11" article:

"Direct3D 11 was released as part of Windows 7. It was presented at Gamefest 2008 on July 22, 2008 and demonstrated at the Nvision 08 technical conference on August 26, 2008.

[...]

First seen in the Release Candidate version, Windows 7 integrates the first released Direct3D 11 support. The Platform Update for Windows Vista includes full-featured Direct3D 11 runtime and DXGI 1.1 update, as well as other related components from Windows 7 like WARP, Direct2D, DirectWrite, and WIC."


On "Windows 7" article:

"The release candidate, build 7100, became available for MSDN and TechNet subscribers and Connect Program participants on April 30, 2009. On May 5, 2009 it became available to the general public, although it had also been leaked onto the Internet via BitTorrent"

Roughly 9 months from announcement to first appearance to the public. Seems like a prudent window of time before announcing a new API and actually releasing it.

Now with DX12 we have..... 1,5-2 years at best, between announcement and supposed launch. Lets sustract 4 months because we might be actually be able to preview it on a preview candidate of the new OS that will be shipping with it... Still nowhere close to the times handled behind the DX11 launch.

So why MS announces this new API 2 years in advance, going against what they did with the API that preceded it? Suddenly API developing costs in time became much higher, or is it that they made this presentation to do damage control of the pressure felt by the launch of that puny little API called Mantle?

 

[Gikaseixas]

Wanted to read relevant info and only found what can be called a fanboys war, wow

Two questions:
1-If AMD really had a hand in DX12 why didn't they say so. This was the perfect moment to take advantage of a free ad
2-If MS had it in the oven 4 years ago why wait this long to announce. It seems AMD did a much better work in launching a similar tech 2 years earlier

It's all too confusing at the moment. I think we'll get a clear picture soon

 

[PPB]

Wanted to read relevant info and only found what can be called a fanboys war, wow

Two questions:
1-If AMD really had a hand in DX12 why didn't they say so. This was the perfect moment to take advantage of a free ad
2-If MS had it in the oven 4 years ago why wait this long to announce. It seems AMD did a much better work in launching a similar tech 2 years earlier

It's all too confusing at the moment. I think we'll get a clear picture soon

1- Because AMD's relations with MS exceed this API development to just ruin it because of screaming a big "we did it first!". AMD is actually one of the few standing that keep drumming the Windows sinking ship, even for a company that is actually going to release ARM products (which implied at first a more direct approach towards embracing Android or Chrome OS, instead of the Bluestacks emulation approach). MS is doing a good work trying to GPU accelerate everything in new Windows implementations, a road AMD firmly endorses. Not even bringing to discussion that one company is supplying hardware to the other for their latest video game console, it should be obvious by now. So for now, AMD is in a better possition keeping being the Remora and MS being the Shark in this scenario, even if AMD actually came up first with the API.

2- Because well.... most bets go to MS not having anything being developed, at least that far in the timeline.

 

[AnandThenMan]

1-If AMD really had a hand in DX12 why didn't they say so. This was the perfect moment to take advantage of a free ad

It's most certainly an ongoing process between MS and AMD. I would imagine MS was caught between a rock and a hard place, they had to source AMD for the Xbox, but at the same time surely knew AMD was working on Mantle which would tread on MS's turf. Mantle may or may not essentially become DX12, but probably why we have nothing about this from AMD is the details are not yet at a stage where an announcement can be made. Maybe MS still thinks they can cobble together a viable answer to Mantle on their own.

2-If MS had it in the oven 4 years ago why wait this long to announce. It seems AMD did a much better work in launching a similar tech 2 years earlier

It's pretty obvious, MS was caught with their pants down. Maybe they were in denial or believed Mantle would never become a real thing, but now that it's real and making D3D look decidedly lame, they have no choice.

And let me remind people that Mantle was said to not be necessary, that D3D was more than good enough. But now all of a sudden a thin/light API model is the way forward. It's been a really long time since I've seen such wide reaching hypocrisy.

 

[PPB]

And let me remind people that Mantle was said to not be necessary, that D3D was more than good enough. But now all of a sudden a thin/light API model is the way forward. It's been a really long time since I've seen such wide reaching hypocrisy.

You havent been that long into reading this subforum then.

 

[Gikaseixas]

1- Because AMD's relations with MS exceed this API development to just ruin it because of screaming a big "we did it first!". AMD is actually one of the few standing that keep drumming the Windows sinking ship, even for a company that is actually going to release ARM products (which implied at first a more direct approach towards embracing Android or Chrome OS, instead of the Bluestacks emulation approach). MS is doing a good work trying to GPU accelerate everything in new Windows implementations, a road AMD firmly endorses. Not even bringing to discussion that one company is supplying hardware to the other for their latest video game console, it should be obvious by now. So for now, AMD is in a better possition keeping being the Remora and MS being the Shark in this scenario, even if AMD actually came up first with the API.

Nvidia wasted no time in trying to get some credit. This is the difference in corporate cultures talking and that's why Nvidia excels in marketing.

2- Because well.... most bets go to MS not having anything being developed, at least that far in the timeline.

I agree with you

 

[Gikaseixas]

And let me remind people that Mantle was said to not be necessary, that D3D was more than good enough. But now all of a sudden a thin/light API model is the way forward. It's been a really long time since I've seen such wide reaching hypocrisy.

Well said.

 

[AnandThenMan]

You havent been that long into reading this subforum then.

I have not seen it on this level, well maybe ever. It's coming from Nvidia, Microsoft, and some on the various forums. For something (Mantle) that was supposed to be dead in the water, not needed, pointless, will never be released etc. it sure rattled a few cages. Great for the industry I said it before the progress of the API had become incredibly stale.

 

[sontin]

Lol.
That nVidia and Microsoft have been working since last year on a functional driver and enviroment - before AMD announced Mantle - is still ignored? D:

That DX12 supports goes back to hardware from 2010 instead of 2012? That it will be supported by anyone from Intel over nVidia to "ARM"?

DX12 is a huge step forward. And it took time to bring it into a shape which is usable.

 

[PPB]

Yeah, it was ironic seeing you have 10 years on this forum. You really didnt read any more hypocrisy in all that time? Would have killed to be here when Fermi's bumpgate happened



About my first response to your question Gikaseixas, I think its just AMD having much more to lose going against MS than Nvidia. Nvidia has catered, for good or for worse and in different levels of success, different roads to spread out something to MS/Windows monopoly should happen. For example, if something supernatural happened today and Windows suddenly died, leaving unix based OSes as the only mainstream option in the desktop, AMD would take a whole bigger hit than Nvidia, whose Linux support is better ATM, has already entered the android ecosystem and has a good relation as a supplier with Apple. I think AMD just hugged a sinking ship way too much and is praying now next Windows/DX wont fail to impress.

 

[Gloomy]

So I just woke uo and I might be groggy from sleep but I seriously thought I was reading a Mantle presentation when reading the PCPer livestream. Those looked exactly like AMD slides, same font even.

And DX12... it's Mantle. The stated goals, the way its features are worded... Microsoft could have used Mantle slides from four months ago and nobody would have noticed.

Now, I'm not stupid, and won't imply Microsoft adopted Mantle or whatever.

But I will say that AMD's development of Mantle and EA, Crytek's and everyone else adoption of Mantle makes A LOT more sense.

For AMD, they already have a DX12 driver and development tools. It's Mantle. And for the devs, their engines are now already ready for DX12 when it launches.

 

[ASM-coder]

I wonder how they get "closer to the metal than ever before," and yet stay GPU agnostic?
Edit: Since AMD needs GCN tech to get closer.

 

[Noctifer616]

I wonder how they get "closer to the metal than ever before," and yet stay GPU agnostic?
Edit: Since AMD needs GCN tech to get closer.

Mantle doesn't require GCN, just the feature set that GCN supports. It was already said that Mantle has an abstraction layer so that future GPU architectures can work with it.