AMD GPU14 Tech Event Sept 25 - AMD Hawiian Islands

[gorobei]

the slide says multiplatform i dont recall him mentioning open source. platform would mean it works on any gcn hardware(windows with gcn card/apu, ps4 gcn apu, xbone gcn apu, linux on gcn card/apu).

mantle the software interface may be open to anyone wanting to build a direct to metal library.



for those that dont get direct to metal calls, the simplest analogy would be fedexing a package.
california vinyard needs to send grapes to winery in next county.

directX method: give grapes to fedex, fedex packages grapes into arbitrary containers, fly to fedex tennessee sorting center, fly back to california, send to winery, winery sorts red and white grapes, makes wine.

call to metal method: pack red grape into 18wheeler truck & pack white grape into 2nd truck, drive to winery, make wine.

mantle simply cuts out the middle man steps of the process.


if mantle is anything like the ps3 libgcm, instead of translating game engine assets in to generic DX11 instructions, mantle will package the assets into a format that the gcn registers can operate on directly through a library tag/call.

on the pc it will be a nice reduction of dx overhead. but most games will still use directaudio and directinput parts of dx.

with true audio and mantle, steambox just needs an api for controller inputs. this is an anti MS move, thats why they wasted an hour on the audio portion of the presentation.

 

[Abwx]

Being optimized for DirectX and supporting/optimizing for Mantle are not exclusive from one another.

Quite possible but what i had in mind is how reviewers
will compare graphic cards using BF4 since Hawai will
run on DX11.1/11.2 while the GTX will be stuck in legacy mode
running only with DX11.0.

 

[BD2003]

Would Nvidia really consider writing a Mantle aware driver? I dunno, that's putting control too much in the hands of your direct competitor. What's stopping AMD from updating Mantle so that Nvidia hardware is always 2 steps behind. Same as if AMD were to obtain a PhysX license, risky.

Exactly. Calling this "open" is a farce. It's OpenAL all over again.

That worked out great, didn't it?

 

[Xarick]

??? Not sure you know what you're talking about. An easier port means MORE time to focus on pc control scheme and getting the pc version correct. If anything devs can now build for pc and scale down for the respective consoles.

You all keep forgetting.. first the game has to be adapted for direct x and that takes money.
So.. since you can easily port it.. you spend your money to code for direct x. The goal here is to minimize financial output as game creation gets more expensive. So adding things to accomodate will be one of the first cuts made... as it is today.. this just makes it even easier to make those cuts because the port is more direct.

I have been in enough meetings to know how this money cutting works.. Someone is going to say.. hey look.. this HUD ports directly over.. we don't need to spend money optimizing it.. the controls can be thrown together fast.. we can cut our development time and costs by X..

 

[OCGuy]

People trumpeting the downfall of anything other than this yet-to-be-seen API will be reminded of this thread in a year.

Game developers aren't going to lock out everyone other than AMD and their minority marketshare (remember Intel owns the majority of graphics processing and NV owns discreet), and Xbox is a Microsoft product.

 

[GaiaHunter]

You all keep forgetting.. first the game has to be adapted for direct x and that takes money.
So.. since you can easily port it.. you spend your money to code for direct x. The goal here is to minimize financial output as game creation gets more expensive. So adding things to accomodate will be one of the first cuts made... as it is today.. this just makes it even easier to make those cuts because the port is more direct.

The thing is that they are already coding for GCN in the consoles which is the same architecture of AMD PC GPUs, so most of the work is already done.

So, AMD will use mantle optimized API wherever it is possible and DX just like NVIDIA for the rest.

 

[Xarick]

The thing is that they are already coding for GCN in the consoles which is the same architecture of AMD PC GPUs, so most of the work is already done.

And then the mantle API also helps porting it to DX.

Except.. more than 2/3rds of the market is Nvidia, Intel and AMD non GCN gpus. So your money is made making the game work across all cards.. not just one arch. If they don't have to spend money for the AMD stuff that will be good. Unless you have an AMD card and an intel CPU.. then it might not be so good. That is my biggest worry.

 

[gorobei]

Would Nvidia really consider writing a Mantle aware driver? I dunno, that's putting control too much in the hands of your direct competitor. What's stopping AMD from updating Mantle so that Nvidia hardware is always 2 steps behind. Same as if AMD were to obtain a PhysX license, risky.

whether nvidia makes their own version or offers a call library for mantle, the benefit isnt there because of the amd consoles. if the console code is already written in optimized form for gcn, there is no benefit to a cuda mantle.

back when with ps3, xb360, windows dx; you would have to code 3 versions of the game. with ps4, xbone, win amd, win dx(nv and non gcn amd), the first console version already covers 3 of 4 of the targetable platforms. write once use 3 times for anything gcn, write again for dx use once.

 

[Revolution 11]

Agreed, but Microsoft moves at the pace of a sloth. So we could be in for a long wait...

Oh I actually have no hope for Microsoft. It is a dying company, completely paralyzed by its own past success and cash cows, a utterly dysfunctional management structure, and drained of employee morale. :'(

 

[GaiaHunter]

Except.. more than 2/3rds of the market is Nvidia, Intel and AMD non GCN gpus. So your money is made making the game work across all cards.. not just one arch.

Except AMD will be the biggest player of the PC+Console videogame market with the hardware in consoles.

It is already in place due to consoles.

The mantle is something that will naturally come from the consoles, it won't be replacing DX, just make it the games faster for AMD hardware.

Get it?

Optimizations for the AMD hardware console will come to the AMD PC hardware.

On the other hand, PC exclusive games won't these specific AMD optimizations due what you say.

 

[TridenT]

I'm considering buying a 7970/7970 GHz edition and I don't know if I should wait or not? (R9 290X seems too pricey at the rumored $600)

The 7970 GHz edition even comes with Crysis 3 and the 3 game never-ever-forever settle bundle. ($320 AR)

I do have really nice 2.1 speakers, but I don't know if ... this audio enhancement [redacted] is worth it? How many games will really support it? (Sounds like PhysX/gimmicky)

Warning issued for profanity.
-- stahlhart

 

[HurleyBird]

On the other hand, PC exclusive games won't these specific AMD optimizations due what you say.

Star Citizen is a PC-exclusive and will in all likelihood support Mantle. I'm sure there will be a few other exception too, but in general I think you're right -- cross platform games will more often than not support mantle, PC exclusives will not (unless they are sponsored by AMD)

 

[DooKey]

Mantle = Glide?

 

[Revolution 11]

I'm considering buying a 7970/7970 GHz edition and I don't know if I should wait or not? (R9 290X seems too pricey at the rumored $600)

The 7970 GHz edition even comes with Crysis 3 and the 3 game never-ever-forever settle bundle. ($320 AR)

I do have really nice 2.1 speakers, but I don't know if ... this audio enhancement [redacted] is worth it? How many games will really support it? (Sounds like PhysX/gimmicky)

Let me make it easy for you. Buy now. Buy when the uncertainty is high and prices low. Until they move to 20nm GPUs, there will not be a large boost. The audio stuff is nice, but not worth waiting for.

Get your GPU and game bundle and start gaming. Worry about TrueAudio/Mantle/20nm GPU for your next upgrade cycle (if they are still around).

If you need good sound right now, get a sound card like the Asus Xonar.

 

[sontin]

Mantle = Glide?

Jap. We are going 20 years back. D:

 

[24601]

Star Citizen is a PC-exclusive and will in all likelihood support Mantle. I'm sure there will be a few other exception too, but in general I think you're right -- cross platform games will more often than not support mantle, PC exclusives will not (unless they are sponsored by AMD)

That should be news to Crytek.

This kind of stuff is the domain of the engine developer, not the game developer.

 

[Despoiler]

Anyone remember AMD's Close-to-Metal initiative? Mantle reborn? It would make sense because AMD hardware is in both consoles (and they have stated this is possible because of that). Consoles have low layer access and thats why they can squeeze every ounce of performance from the hardware...unlike PCs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_to_Metal

 

[Abwx]

Jap. We are going 20 years back. D:

Because DX was a progress.?..

 

[monstercameron]

the slide says multiplatform i dont recall him mentioning open source. Platform would mean it works on any gcn hardware(windows with gcn card/apu, ps4 gcn apu, xbone gcn apu, linux on gcn card/apu).

Mantle the software interface may be open to anyone wanting to build a direct to metal library.



For those that dont get direct to metal calls, the simplest analogy would be fedexing a package.
California vinyard needs to send grapes to winery in next county.

directx method: Give grapes to fedex, fedex packages grapes into arbitrary containers, fly to fedex tennessee sorting center, fly back to california, send to winery, winery sorts red and white grapes, makes wine.

call to metal method: Pack red grape into 18wheeler truck & pack white grape into 2nd truck, drive to winery, make wine.

Mantle simply cuts out the middle man steps of the process.


If mantle is anything like the ps3 libgcm, instead of translating game engine assets in to generic dx11 instructions, mantle will package the assets into a format that the gcn registers can operate on directly through a library tag/call.

On the pc it will be a nice reduction of dx overhead. But most games will still use directaudio and directinput parts of dx.

With true audio and mantle, steambox just needs an api for controller inputs. This is an anti ms move, thats why they wasted an hour on the audio portion of the presentation.

sdl 2?

 

[sontin]

Because DX was a progress.?..

DX and OpenGL allowed competition between vendors. It was the best thing happened for the pc market.

And we see it with Android right now: Open Standards are allowing progressing and better hardware.

 

[BD2003]

DX and OpenGL allowed competition between vendors. It was the best thing happened for the pc market.

And we see it with Android right now: Open Standards are allowing progressing and better hardware.

I agree 1000000%. Leave the proprietary APIs to the consoles. Open platforms like PCs need open standards.

 

[HurleyBird]

That should be news to Crytek.

This kind of stuff is the domain of the engine developer, not the game developer.

Crytek is of course also in the AMD camp, and actually, it's both the domain of the game developer and the engine creator -- at least as far as Cryengine is concerned. For example, MWO is using the latest version of Cryengine, and although the engine supports a DX11 render path the game developers have it disabled because there is work they need to do on it from a stability and performance perspective. Ideally though, you're right that devs shouldn't need to do that kind of work.

 

[Freaksterz]

So better performance should just come from hardware ? lol.. This is just ridiculous.

 

[sontin]

Hm, "better performance"? You mean like comparing Cuda to x86?

 

[Silverforce11]

I agree 1000000%. Leave the proprietary APIs to the consoles. Open platforms like PCs need open standards.

Games will still run on DX, it will just be an option for GCN Radeons, enable Mantle and get a speed boost.

In a way its the same as PhysX, games still run on non-NV hardware, but if you have NV hardware, it runs much faster.

Its a question of how prominent these two proprietary APIs will become. I guess it doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to see Mantle being a major success given that console developers were asking AMD for this API, to make console <-> PC game development easier.