AMD GPU14 Tech Event Sept 25 - AMD Hawiian Islands

[USER8000]

The Mantle API is open:

http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd-launches-mantle-api-to-optimize-pc-gpu-performance.html

Other companies can use it.

 

[itsmydamnation]

So, an AMD site (beyond3d) and an AMD employee is promoting their own vendor specific API.

Yap, i guess i should take this serious. :\

how the hell is beyond3d an AMD site , you have active intel GPU engineers, active amd engineers, active imgtech engineers , active game devs like repi, sebbi and countless others.

There are likely NV engineers on it as well, but NV policy means they cant say anything.....

 

[wand3r3r]

Hyprocrite at best.

Pot kettle black?

This thread is about AMD, which you clearly hate so why keep trying to derail it and smear everything amd.

---

About the physx and mantle comparison, most of the same people in here spreading so much FUD about mantle (on those principles) are those that support physx (with similar ideas).

I'm not trying to support one manufacturer cutting off the other, however that is not even happening here. NV can join the fray, or just leave it to the forum trolls (& FUD) desperately smearing it.

 

[sontin]

how the hell is beyond3d an AMD site , you have active intel GPU engineers, active amd engineers, active imgtech engineers , active game devs like repi, sebbi and countless others.

There are likely NV engineers on it as well, but NV policy means they cant say anything.....

The site is promoting AMD and talking trash about nVidia. Every thread about nVidia is a trainwreck. It's fun to read but not really informative.

And yes - they are promoting the same thing AMD is doing. You will never read any nVidia news on it since Arun left the staff. The site was much better 10 years ago.

Pot kettle black?

This thread is about AMD, which you clearly hate so why keep trying to derail it and smear everything amd.

This thread is about AMD's livestream and GPUTech14.
Maybe you are in the wrong one?!

About the physx and mantle comparison, most of the same people in here spreading so much FUD about mantle (on those principles) are those that support physx (with similar ideas).

I'm not trying to support one manufacturer cutting off the other, however that is not even happening here. NV can join the fray, or just leave it to the forum trolls (& FUD) desperately smearing it.

Funny, you the guy who is complaining about nVidia and PhysX every time, even started a thread about it. And now you talk about "spreading fud"? D:

So AMD is not "cutting of nVidia" with an own API they only have access to? I mean, really? REALLY?

 

[SiliconWars]

Lol, the reason why nVidia did not do it was it will seperate the pc market and will not get support outside of partner they are paying. Nobody will use so many different APIs. The reason why Dice is using it is because they wanted it. It's a console thing for a closed plattform.

Yeah no way would Nvidia ever pay devs to use their proprietary features or hobble performance on AMD cards! :hmm:

If Nvidia had the talent and foresight to develop their own API you'd be celebrating like it was Christmas. The butthurt and double-standards are reaching new levels, clearly AMD has Nvidia on the canvas and almost out for the count!

 

[itsmydamnation]

The site is promoting AMD and talking trash about nVidia. Every thread about nVidia is a trainwreck. It's fun to read but not really informative.

And yes - they are promoting the same thing AMD is doing. You will never read any nVidia news on it since Arun left the staff. The site was much better 10 years ago.

You have zero credibility bud , you completely ignored the contents of my post ( shock horror ) to attach its source, because the content, of which some is many years old, directly contradicts you and points out your lies! Also it isn't a news site, you will never read "news". Nice to know its major game developers, intel , AMD and imgtech vs NV. You need some tin foil with your crack?

 

[Fire&Blood]

Info on Mantle is scarce but it looks like it's basically something COD and Indy developers will shy away from while Crytek, ID Tech and similar devs will be all over it from day one.

 

[raghu78]

Pot kettle black?
This thread is about AMD, which you clearly hate so why keep trying to derail it and smear everything amd.

:thumbsup:

About the physx and mantle comparison, most of the same people in here spreading so much FUD about mantle (on those principles) are those that support physx (with similar ideas).

Mantle has the potential to be a game changer for AMD. I am also thinking, since they say Mantle is cross platform , that it supports PS4 / Xbox One and Steambox.

 

[sontin]

Sure. Because the company who invented the first software and hardware for GPGPU in 2004 and brought it to the market in 2006/2007 was not able to develop an own low level API...

The reason why they did not do it was because they had seperated the market. And believe me no developer would invest time to optimize two different APIs for so many different architectures. Even AMD is only supporting GCN!

You have zero credibility bud , you completely ignored the contents of my post ( shock horror ) to attach its source, because the content, of which some is many years old, directly contradicts you and points out your lies! Also it isn't a news site, you will never read "news". Nice to know its major game developers, intel , AMD and imgtech vs NV. You need some tin foil with your crack?

The content is nothing new. It's marketing to promote something only a few people want on the pc. It's like quoting nVidia and showing how great Cuda is and that you need no other open standard API.

"Major Game developers"? It's only Dice. And they are dont care about pc gaming anymore.

 

[Red Hawk]

Hmm. The more I think about Mantle, the more I see its potential and why it has to be AMD exclusive, or GCN exclusive.

DirectX is slow because it has to run on all sorts of hardware. DirectX 11 has to still support GCN, Kepler, Fermi, and AMD's VLIW architectures. DirectX 10 has to support Nvidia's pre-Fermi unified shader architecture and AMD's pre-DirectX 11 VLIW5 architecture. Heck, DirectX 9.0c technically still supports the fixed function vertex shader/pixel shader architecture. Compatibility is a good thing, but it comes at a price. DirectX does not change itself or adjust to suit new or old architectures, and that's leaving a lot of performance on the table.

By focusing Mantle on just being compatible with AMD's GCN architecture, they can get at a lot of that performance. I'm sure it won't quite get up to game console levels, as the API still has to account for different system memory sizes and speeds, different CPU core counts and speeds, etc., but it should allow great improvement over DirectX.

It remains to be seen if it takes off in the market. If there's truly a desire from developers for a more efficient API in this vein, they'll jump at it. We'll see.

So, an AMD site (beyond3d) and an AMD employee are promoting their own vendor specific API.

Yap, i guess i should take this serious.

You do realize that those articles are from 2011? They're not promoting anything, just talking about what they know about PC game development.

 

[raghu78]

The Mantle API is open:

http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd-launches-mantle-api-to-optimize-pc-gpu-performance.html

Other companies can use it.

We need confirmation from other sites and some kind of official statement from AMD. Even if Mantle is open would Nvidia use it ? I don't think. They are too aggressive and arrogant to accept a console style API for the PC fashioned by their arch rival ATI / AMD. If Nvidia adopts Mantle you can effectively kill Directx given that its much more efficient. So is Nvidia willing to join hands with AMD and kick MS / Directx goodbye.

 

[Grooveriding]

If you crap up the thread much more you're going to need to get yourself a diaper to wear.

Good grief man, let it go. So AMD will own one benchmark, Battlefield 4 - in December - not even when the game releases...

 

[Red Hawk]

We need confirmation from other sites and some kind of official statement from AMD. Even if Mantle is open would Nvidia use it ? I don't think. They are too aggressive and arrogant to accept a console style API for the PC fashioned by their arch rival ATI / AMD. If Nvidia adopts Mantle you can effectively kill Directx given that its much more efficient. So is Nvidia willing to join hands with AMD and kick MS / Directx goodbye.

As others have mentioned, it may simply be that they can't use it. The efficiency comes from addressing the specific resources and architecture of a GCN-based GPU. So while game developers would be free to code for it, Nvidia can't just write up a set of drivers to support it.

Has anyone mentioned that this could be exactly what SteamOS needs? If SteamOS provides support for Mantle, they would essentially be able to support every PC game that comes out with a Mantle renderer.

 

[Final8ty]

I already predicted AMD needs exclusives and here you are.Where are you Finalty?
I won't be surprised if NV comes with their own "Dismantle" stuff pretty soon

I said exclusives helps, that does not mean it is needed for success , it depends what the exclusive feature is to how important is, exclusive for sake of exclusive does not mean a damn thing if that feature is unimportant, and besides SLI in windowed mode NV has no no exclusives features that interests me and there are many other factors, AMD would still do fine without it and its no different to TressFX, the API is not locked out for anything but AMD hardware, its only that possibly that AMD hardware and drivers fully support it for now, no different than DX is not locked to any vendor either and Mantle give more performance and not exclusive features that drag performance down.

As i said price to performance and marketing is the key and the poll showed that the exclusives had very little to do with NV success when it comes to PC gaming, they are nice little extras when the price and performance line up but the exclusives are not the reason, it was having the performance crown most of the time and the marketing which has lead to brand loyalty to NV even when they are not the best price to performance and you were arguing that having the best price to performance is not enough, funny that this feature is all about more performance for the money, so it should not make any difference because its only more performance for the money like what AMD has been offering and failing with, performance its not a new feature is it, its what people want most, performance and it could give enough lead for the power of NV Marketing and brand loyalty to not be worth the cost anymore.

Whats helping AMD the most at the moment is that the consoles are exclusively AMD with all this is having an effect on AMD on the PC which is ironic with many saying that AMD having all the consoles is unimportant.

The fact that AMD in linked in association to all the things like TressFX,Mantal, Consoles, GE titles is good PR= Marketing regardless if it runs on other brands.

 

[Fire&Blood]

Has anyone mentioned that this could be exactly what SteamOS needs? If SteamOS provides support for Mantle, they would essentially be able to support every PC game that comes out with a Mantle renderer.

Interesting angle. Mantle is in line with the reasoning that spawned SteamOS to begin with.
I'm willing to bet you are onto something here.

 

[DarkKnightDude]

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/03/16/farewell-to-directx/1
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1788711&postcount=210

got any more lies to make up sontin

this is also a very good read
http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/120/1

Reading that, really does seem like they've been working on it for awhile and finally decided to unveil it.

 

[sontin]

You do realize that those articles are from 2011? They're not promoting anything, just talking about what they know about PC game development.

I know these articles. And i know the other ones from AMD, where they promoting open standards instead of a proprietary solutions.
Mantle exists so that AMD does not need to bring faster and better hardware to the market. They are doing a second 3DFx which did nearly the same for three generations - V1, V2 and V3.

There is no reason for nVidia not to do the same. The only result will be a seperation of the pc gaming market. Funny that especially AMD people have no problem with it after they promoted open standards for the last 5 years. D:

 

[Silverforce11]

Reading that, really does seem like they've been working on it for awhile and finally decided to unveil it.

They've been working on it as soon as they knew their GPUs would power PS4 and Xbone, which was years ago.

Developers that make games for these crossplatform would kill to have something like this, it's also backwards compatible with DX so there's no need to divert resources to optimize both. It'll just default to DX on non-GCN GPUs and hence won't take advantage of the speed boost.

This is the caveat: IF Mantle works as advertised, its a major win for AMD since the two major console for the next 8 years will use it.

 

[GaiaHunter]

I think you guys are making a mistake by comparing PhysX to Mantle.

PhysX is just middleware that runs on CUDA. Mantle is an architecture specific API, so there's no way it can be classified as "open.".

You could port PhysX over to OpenCL and AMD would be able to run it without needing to use CUDA.

But how can NVidia use Mantle when it's created exclusively for GCN? If anything, Mantle is more like CUDA.

I don't see any way for NVidia to jump on the Mantle bandwagon, without making their own similar exclusive API that allows for deeper access on their hardware.

And so we'll end up with multiple APIs and some games running inherently much faster on NVidia hardware, and some running inherently much faster on AMD hardware.

Although I recognize the desire for developers to circumvent the software limitations that APIs like OpenGL and DirectX impose on hardware, AMD is really opening up a can of worms with this.

If it causes Intel and NVidia to retaliate, then what?

Mantle isn't like CUDA.
CUDA is a language that means you need to rewrite all your program to work with it.
An API like mantle means that you need to allow your backend to interface with it and that part doesn't require substantial resources.

Loads of people talking about the past but one needs to understand several things changed - you don't have a ton of hardware makes on the videocards market any longer, engine licensing is common and natural while back then it basically didn't exist (this means only the engine owners have to spend resources to offering different backends), developers that develop for multi platform already write different backends - one for DX for PC, one for xbox, one for PSx.

 

[RussianSensation]

I don't see any way for NVidia to jump on the Mantle bandwagon, without making their own similar exclusive API that allows for deeper access on their hardware. And so we'll end up with multiple APIs and some games running inherently much faster on NVidia hardware, and some running inherently much faster on AMD hardware.

And? Guess what NV and Intel threw $ at developers for a decade for architecture/brand specific/compiler/driver optimizations. AMD fought fair and square for years, offered nearly unbeatable price/performance (4850/4870/5850/5870/6950 unlocked) beat NV to market (HD5000), kept features open (TressFX), offered dual bioses for free, and their profitability & market share hardly improved. If you want to blame someone for this development, blame NV and consumers that keep rewarding NV. Now, AMD said forget this, we are going to go from working closely with developers to having their babies.

---

R9 280X will have unlocked voltage and support for DX11.2. See, AMD again continues to please enthusiasts by offering them bios switches for flashing and full voltage control vs. NV that allows almost no voltage control and charges $100-150 premiums for cards that are 7-10% faster ($280-300 1Ghz 7970 vs. GTX770 2/4GB).

I don't feel sorry for NV even for a second. They pulled so many stunts with gimped AC performance, Batman games, etc. AMD doesn't stop NV from running DirectCompute in AMD GE titles, doesn't prevent NV from using features like TressFX. NV's cards are just slower because Kepler is an inferior architecture for compute. NV ends up making chips 20-30% larger to compete. Not to worry since Maxwell should blow GCN out of the water since NV has been working on it for 4-5 years. If anything we want a more competitive AMD so that NV doesn't keep charging $1,000 for flagship single GPUs. The only way for this to happen is for the cash starved AMD to figure out a way to compete better. This is going to bring more competition, not less since it'll force NV to make even faster GPUs if they are going to be behind on the software optimization level. They can make up for it on the hardware level with 550mm2 die. At the rate AMD was going, they are lucky to break even or make measly $20-30 million a quarter on the entire GPU division.

 

[Carfax83]

Mantle isn't like CUDA.
CUDA is a language that means you need to rewrite all your program to work with it.
An API like mantle means that you need to allow your backend to interface with it and that part doesn't require substantial resources.

Loads of people talking about the past but one needs to understand several things changed - you don't have a ton of hardware makes on the videocards market any longer, engine licensing is common and natural while back then it basically didn't exist (this means only the engine owners have to spend resources to offering different backends), developers that develop for multi platform already write different backends - one for DX for PC, one for xbox, one for PSx.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks for the explanation :thumbsup:

 

[raghu78]

And? Guess what NV and Intel threw $ at developers for a decade for architecture/brand specific/compiler/driver optimizations. AMD fought fair and square for years, offered nearly unbeatable price/performance (4850/4870/5850/5870/6950 unlocked) beat NV to market (HD5000), kept features open (TressFX), offered dual bioses for free, and their profitability & market share hardly improved. If you want to blame someone for this development, blame NV and consumers that keep rewarding NV. Now, AMD said forget this, we are going to go from working closely with developers to having their babies.

---

R9 280X will have unlocked voltage and support for DX11.2. See, AMD again continues to please enthusiasts by offering them bios switches for flashing and full voltage control vs. NV that allows almost no voltage control and charges $100-150 premiums for cards that are 5-7% faster ($280-300 1Ghz 7970 vs. GTX770 2/4GB).

wow that card looks sexy. :thumbsup: I hope XFX has done a much better job this time. the larger 100 mm fans should help reduce fan noise as they can run at lower speeds. Dual BIOS and unlocked voltage is something which we have come to expect with AMD. lower prices and better cooling. the only other thing AMD needs to deliver is lower power. I hope AMD has atleast done a new stepping to incorporate Bonaire style power management to Tahiti core. Also since the 28nm process has matured they can run at lower voltage of 1.175 - 1.2v and still maintain 1 Ghz clocks.

 

[blackened23]

Well this thread turned out as expected. The same guys who are clearly nvidia biased talk smack about AMD nonstop rolleyes:, and vice versa. Whatever. It's almost like arguing video cards is like arguing politics around here...

 

[RussianSensation]

Anyone who keeps blaming AMD for introducing API as an unfair way to compete, AMD was asked directly by developers for this!

AMD's head of GPU developer relations, Richard Huddy, says games developers are asking AMD to 'make the [DX] API go away'

AMD pleases enthusiasts with dual bios switches, voltage control overclocking, price/performance and game bundles.
AMD now is listening to developer feedback.
While not a Titan killer per say, we now should have a competitive AMD that forces NV to innovate, release faster cards, drop prices.

Response to all of this? This is so unfair, negative feedback, backlash! Brilliant. Didn't Titan owners already say that even if AMD releases a card with Titan's performance for $500, it won't impress them since they had Titan for 10 months? So what's the problem here exactly? AMD upped the performance which is better for gamers, while GTX780/Titan owners enjoyed a fast card for months. Everyone wins.

 

[Jaydip]

@ RS "NV's cards are just slower because Kepler is an inferior architecture for compute" is simply untrue.In the professional space kepler is much faster than tahiti where it really matters.