AMD GPU14 Tech Event Sept 25 - AMD Hawiian Islands

[VulgarDisplay]

Obviously a console (which is by definition a closed platform with very specific CPU/GPU hardware) can and should make use of very low-level API's to extract maximum performance. But when porting a console game to PC (which is by definition an open platform with non-specific CPU/GPU hardware), it is important that the game runs smoothly on a variety of different hardware, and DirectX and OpenGL facilitate that. Mantle, on the other hand, is an opportunistic play from AMD that provides benefits only for GCN-equipped GPU's, and that is one reason why it is destined to fail in the marketplace. If you look at the full breadth of PC gamers in the world, only a very small percentage of people are actually using GCN-equipped GPU's, and an even smaller percentage of people are using 8-core AMD CPU's.

What you are completely failing to realize is that GCN is the marketplace for the next 8-10 years.

The xbox 360 and ps3 combined to sell 153.2 million units during their console generation. I fully expect the PS4 and Xbone to outsell them in a huge way because of their lower launch price, and the massive amount of gamers that the last console generation created. The upcoming consoles are GCN based APU's and there is a very large chance that Mantle will be usable on both consoles because of this. Mantle being a crossplatform API that targets the largest install hardware install base across consoles and PC's will allow developers to make far more money and save time allowing them to release higher quality games faster. Couple gaming PC's with GCN gpu's, consoles, and low end APU's that will now have the performance to run games well and AMD has a HUGE audience for developers to make money off of. Anyone stating that this will not gain any traction is delusional.

AMD is delivering next-generation consoles, and next generation butt-hurt to people unwilling to accept how handily Nvidia has been played with all of AMD's moves leading up to this announcement and the next gen consoles.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm of the opinion that a lot of people will be choking on their words come December when BF4 gets it's Mantle update.

 

[Creig]

Well, unless AMD payed for the entire mantle path. It did cripple something. Be it DX path or the game itself. Resources and money needs to come from somewhere.

Thats also why multipath renders is a terrible idea.

Except that this is a cross-platform API. It will actually have the effect of reducing game development times since it can be used on the PS4, the XBox One and GCN equipped PCs simultaneously. Previously, resources would need to be devoted to make the modifications necessary to run acceptably on all three separate platforms.

And from what I read, Mantle will continue to follow AMD's policy of open source. Nvidia would therefore be able to include the technology in their GPUs in the future. Whether they will choose to embrace it will be up to them.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Except that this is a cross-platform API. It will actually have the effect of reducing game development times since it can be used on the PS4, the XBox One and GCN equipped PCs simultaneously. Previously, resources would need to be devoted to make the modifications necessary to run acceptably on all three separate platforms.

And from what I read, Mantle will continue to follow AMD's policy of open source. Nvidia would therefore be able to include the technology in their GPUs in the future. Whether they will choose to embrace it will be up to them.

How can it reduce it, if mantle only works on CGN. So nomatter what you need to make a DX port for the rest of the 90% of the potential market without CGN capable GPUs. Even the best case would just mean its status quo, and CGN users getting a slight boost. However you would now have to support mantle on the PC platform as well.

 

[Fire&Blood]

LOL:

Wade Brainerd
@wadetb
Principal Technical Director at Activision

Portland, ME · wadeb.com


We'll have to support #Mantle now; wish it was just #OpenGL extensions though! Maybe someone will lightly wrap D3D or GL around it for us?

 

[wand3r3r]

How can it reduce it, if mantle only works on CGN. So nomatter what you need to make a DX port for the rest of the 90% of the potential market without CGN capable GPUs. Even the best case would just mean its status quo, and CGN users getting a slight boost. However you would now have to support mantle on the PC platform as well.

Supposedly it's open for NV to use too. It would mean NV has to take the API and make it work with Kepler presumably. Why would AMD do the porting to kepler?

In the fantasy world that both take it up, it would mean PC = mantle API, done.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Supposedly it's open for NV to use too. It would mean NV has to take the API and make it work with Kepler presumably. Why would AMD do the porting to kepler?

In the fantasy world that both take it up, it would mean PC = mantle API, done.

It seem rather closed to put it mildly. And its like saying AMD could just make PhysX work on their cards.

 

[96Firebird]

But the developers WANT IT!

 

[ShintaiDK]

LOL:

Wade Brainerd
@wadetb
Principal Technical Director at Activision

Portland, ME · wadeb.com


We'll have to support #Mantle now; wish it was just #OpenGL extensions though! Maybe someone will lightly wrap D3D or GL around it for us?

LOL, translated: This cost money we dont want to spend.

 

[wand3r3r]

It seem rather closed to put it mildly. And its like saying AMD could just make PhysX work on their cards.

I'd imagine they could, but there are probably legal issues and $ to even begin thinking about it.

Of course AMD apparently implemented an API similar to the xbox for GCN. Now it's up to NV to determine if they think it's worth it to implement the API for their architecture. The market will sort this out in the next couple years.

I'd imagine it was mostly done with the xbox so they just refined it enough to use it on the PC.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Why is everyone so upset over this? I welcome this. My 2 year old GPU gettin a substantial performance boost?

Low end cards capable of running 4k resolutions?

The only people who should be finding anything negative about this are ones who are unwilling to buy an AMD gpu.

You can draw your won conclusions as to why anyone would not purchase an AMD card that is cheaper and far faster than it's nvidia counterpart.

 

[Creig]

How can it reduce it, if mantle only works on CGN. So nomatter what you need to make a DX port for the rest of the 90% of the potential market without CGN capable GPUs. Even the best case would just mean its status quo, and CGN users getting a slight boost. However you would now have to support mantle on the PC platform as well.

90%? I'm not sure where you're getting that number from.

The reduction in programming necessary will come from those games that exist on both consoles and PCs. The programming for consoles will carry over to PCs equipped with a GCN capable video card. And vice versa.

Previously, programming had to be done separately for the XBox, the PS3 and the PC. And even in the PC world, you have separate AMD and Nvidia tweaking. Now it will be possible to copy/paste a lot of work for the XBox One, the PS4 and newer AMD video cards since they will all be GCN based.

It will also encourage those developers who only write for one platform to consider porting their games over to multiple platforms since a lot of the work will be compatible between them.

 

[ShintaiDK]

90%? I'm not sure where you're getting that number from.

Steam.

The reduction in programming necessary will come from those games that exist on both consoles and PCs. The programming for consoles will carry over to PCs equipped with a GCN capable video card. And vice versa.

Previously, programming had to be done separately for the XBox, the PS3 and the PC. And even in the PC world, you have separate AMD and Nvidia tweaking. Now it will be possible to copy/paste a lot of work for the XBox One, the PS4 and newer AMD video cards since they will all be GCN based.

It will also encourage those developers who only write for one platform to consider porting their games over to multiple platforms since a lot of the work will be compatible between them.

Mantle will not bring any cost reduction that wouldnt be there by itself. And you still need the extra DX path on PCs. Also meaning that only those that get payed extra will even do mantle port to PC. Perhaps why we only hear about BF4 and a december patch.

Mantle even increases cost, if we assume it also used on the xbox. Since the Xbox supports regular DX11.1 and Windows. Meaning the mantle port would be extra cost.

 

[Pinecallado]

(Didn't want to make a new thread for this)

Do you think I should buy a gpu now or wait for these new gpus to be released next month. I've been looking at buying a msi 7850 that's on sell at newegg for about $125 after rebate+s/h. The R7 250 just costs $89. Is that considered a rebrand of the 7750 or 7850?

Maybe if I save up hard enough I can afford the R9 270X which is $200. What do you guys think I should do?

 

[Creig]

It seem rather closed to put it mildly. And its like saying AMD could just make PhysX work on their cards.

Um, hardware PhysX does work on AMD cards. It's just that Nvidia has deliberately locked out AMD cards to prevent them from running it.

 

[Teizo]

AMD is delivering next-generation consoles, and next generation butt-hurt to people unwilling to accept how handily Nvidia has been played with all of AMD's moves leading up to this announcement and the next gen consoles.

I guess it is alright to AMD fanboys if AMD starts doing what they hated about their counterparts...I mean, after all...AMD is innocent and can do no wrong.

As I've said before, I can't blame AMD for doing this...but seeing all this hoorah is amusing.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Um, hardware PhysX does work on AMD cards. It's just that Nvidia has deliberately locked out AMD cards to prevent them from running it.

You mean with, because on changes the entire dynamic of your post.

 

[Granseth]

It seem rather closed to put it mildly. And its like saying AMD could just make PhysX work on their cards.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-physx-ati,5764.html

I sort of remembered reading about somebody doing this.

Of course alot has changed, but if PhysX was open it probably would be possible for AMD to do this

 

[ShintaiDK]

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-physx-ati,5764.html

I sort of remembered reading about somebody doing this.

Of course alot has changed, but if PhysX was open it probably would be possible for AMD to do this

We never saw the software did we? So it ended up as a random 15mins of fame statement? Not to mention a Theo article. Reverse hyperthreading!

 

[Carfax83]

Um, hardware PhysX does work on AMD cards. It's just that Nvidia has deliberately locked out AMD cards to prevent them from running it.

You're talking about hybrid systems with an NVidia card as a dedicated PhysX card and an AMD card as the rendering GPU.

AMD cards cannot run PhysX by themselves. The only way that could happen, is if PhysX was ported to OpenCL.

 

[Jaydip]

Mantle can't be cross platform period, why people are spewing this nonsense is beyond me.

 

[Granseth]

We never saw the software did we? So it ended up as a random 15mins of fame statement? Not to mention a Theo article. Reverse hyperthreading!

http://www.techpowerup.com/65144/eran-badit-of-ngohq-now-part-of-nvidia-developer-program.html
He (Eran) might have done something right though.

 

[Creig]

Steam.

Except that you will now have to factor in console user numbers since they will also be a recipient of Mantle's benefits. That swings the percentages a LOT. Plus the new AMD cards haven't been released yet. As people continue to upgrade their old cards for new ones, the number of GCN equipped PCs will only continue to increase.

Mantle will not bring any cost reduction that wouldnt be there by itself. And you still need the extra DX path on PCs. Also meaning that only those that get payed extra will even do mantle port to PC. Perhaps why we only hear about BF4 and a december patch.

I didn't hear anything about companies getting paid extra to use Mantle. If the low-level API works cross platform between the XBox One, the PS4 and GCN equipped PCs, developers will save money by using it. No additional financial incentives will be necessary. Mantle will save the companies time and money just by being utilized.

 

[Fire&Blood]

As a PC user, it's in my interest that the 2 duopolies remain balanced. It became a lot harder ever since ATI was bought. AMD bouncing back would benefit everyone, including people who hate AMD with a passion. Mantle could help but it would be nice to hear some good news on the CPU front as well.

 

[Creig]

You're talking about hybrid systems with an NVidia card as a dedicated PhysX card and an AMD card as the rendering GPU.

AMD cards cannot run PhysX by themselves. The only way that could happen, is if PhysX was ported to OpenCL.

Correct. I should have worded it better. Hardware PhysX is possible to be run on an Nvidia card with an AMD renderer, but Nvidia deliberately prevents this through the driver.

 

[Creig]

Mantle can't be cross platform period, why people are spewing this nonsense is beyond me.

Did you even read the Anandtech article?

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.


Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.


If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.