AMD GPU14 Tech Event Sept 25 - AMD Hawiian Islands

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EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,121
49
91
Sorry, but where is the low level api for nVidia which Dice had be worked on?
Oh right, there is not one. So they worked exclusive with AMD to develop such api.

You see that is like Glide - vendor specific and a lock down.

Yes, but it's not a business decision to lock it down, it's the nature of providing a low-level API. This isn't "flip a switch, support nVidia hardware" this is "write a band new specific implementation for each and every nVidia architecture." It sucks nVidia missed the boat on the consoles, but AMD is going to take this to the house if they have the chance and they're mart to do so. The likelihood of their being a Mantle only game is essentially nill, so I'm not terribly sure why nVidia fans are angry about it.
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
There is an elephant in the room here. What if Mantle, being much more efficient/close to metal approach, can also leverage the hardware more efficiently in an Nvidia GPU? After all, the hardware between Nvidia and AMD is not radically different. Not to say Nvidia will benefit as much as AMD because of architectural commonality, but at the same time maybe Nvidia will not be left as hopelessly behind in Mantle developed games as one might initially think.

From a game dev perspective, I don't think they want to outright ignore all the Nvidia hardware out there, they want to sell games as many as possible.

If that were true, NVIDIA would be suing the pants off of AMD for pouching their architecture.

Also, please, please learn the subject before posting.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Kinda smells like desperation.....CPUs have been in shambles since the Phenom II X6, with more delays announced this month....and they are stuck on a node that they haven't been able to release a new GPU on in years.....

Something would most likely suffer, my guess is IQ.
 

Freaksterz

Member
Sep 25, 2013
56
0
0
still, GCN is to small near Intel+NV+previous gens from AMD on the market,

porting a game with mantle only sounds stupid, apart from that they would need OGL/D3D for the others, it probably makes it more complex to support multiple APIs? maybe something only appealing to AMD sponsored games.

Stuff like that takes time, They said BF4 will use DX11 and an update will release in December to enable Mantle.

Kinda smells like desperation.....CPUs have been in shambles since the Phenom II X6, with more delays announced this month....and they are stuck on a node that they haven't been able to release a new GPU on in years.....

Something would most likely suffer, my guess is IQ.

What desperation is it to write software that gives an edge to your hardware? I don't get it.
Wouldn't you do the same if you had the chance?
Nobody is preventing you from buying an AMD GPU on your Next upgrade cycle. It will take quite sometime for this Feature to kick off anyway.
 
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sushiwarrior

Senior member
Mar 17, 2010
738
0
71
Sorry, but where is the low level api for nVidia which Dice had be worked on?
Oh right, there is not one. So they worked exclusive with AMD to develop such api.

You see that is like Glide - vendor specific and a lock down.

Yes, AMD spent money and man-hours to gain an additional performance benefit for their cards through low level optimization tweaks. Said API is open to Nvidia if they would like to go through the same process as AMD has. But are you suggesting that AMD should use THEIR time and THEIR money to optimize performance on Nvidia cards? LOL!

You don't understand architecture specific or low level API's whatsoever. That's like suggesting that as an airplane pilot, I should be certified to train F1 drivers. Completely different purposes and nuances.
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
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A low level API is always a artificial lock down. It's optimize for a specific hardware. There is no difference to Cuda which only runs on nVidia hardware and a few other processors.

There is a reason why Glide died and why we have higher level Apis. A low level graphics api is bringing us right back to the 90s.

I agree. But I can see why AMD is doing it. It's going to save their business, since they are going for a monopoly on consoles. It also opens the doors for Linux development.

I'm not going to say this is going to hurt Nvidia at all, but it sounds like they are attacking MS more directly. Eliminating the usefulness of DX, and the Windows gaming monopoly.

If it handles Audio and Video (assumed). If they build it for Linux this will make Linux a viable platform for consoles. (a PC centric hardware + Linux os) could result in some cheap and powerful consoles.

I will say it will be a game changer. Things just got interesting.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
Yes, but it's not a business decision to lock it down, it's the nature of providing a low-level API. This isn't "flip a switch, support nVidia hardware" this is "write a band new specific implementation for each and every nVidia architecture." It sucks nVidia missed the boat on the consoles, but AMD is going to take this to the house if they have the chance.

There is a reason why open plattforms growing. Windows and Android.
A low level API is turning a open plattform into a close one - like consoles. There will be no competition, no development, no choice.
 

Bubbleawsome

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2013
4,833
1,204
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Sorry to ask this, but I missed it. Between a 7950/7970/280/290/270 what's the deal comparison wise? Should I jump on a $209 7950 or $309 7970?
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
21
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Kinda smells like desperation.....CPUs have been in shambles since the Phenom II X6, with more delays announced this month....and they are stuck on a node that they haven't been able to release a new GPU on in years.....

Something would most likely suffer, my guess is IQ.

...what?
 
Feb 19, 2009
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There is a reason why open plattforms growing. Windows and Android.
A low level API is turning a open plattform into a close one - like consoles. There will be no competition, no development, no choice.

Is that how you feel about PhysX also?
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,058
410
126
Stuff like that takes time, They said BF4 will use DX11 and an update will release in December to enable Mantle.

yes, added cost and complexity that will only benefit GCN GPU owners, so there is not much future for this outside of AMD sponsored games I guess... like GPU physx.
 

EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,121
49
91
There is a reason why open plattforms growing. Windows and Android.
A low level API is turning a open plattform into a close one - like consoles. There will be no competition, no development, no choice.

You're way over doing this. It's not like developers are suddenly going to skip developing with DirectX or OpenGL. Seriously.
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
21
81
Sorry to ask this, but I missed it. Between a 7950/7970/280/290/270 what's the deal comparison wise? Should I jump on a $209 7950 or $309 7970?

The prices are the same, AMD is rebranding their current lineup and sticking two new GPUs at the top to compete with 780 and Titan.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
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yes, added cost and complexity that will only benefit GCN GPU owners, so there is not much future for this outside of AMD sponsored games I guess... like GPU physx.

How about all the games developed in the future for ps4 and xbone?? Compatible low level porting means the PC version will benefit GCN GPUs, period.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
You're way over doing this. It's not like developers are suddenly going to skip developing with DirectX or OpenGL. Seriously.

Well we went from rumours of a new card that could be 2X as fast as Titan, to on par with Titan, to today's announcement.......

I don't see how any of this merits excitement, but what the heck...
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
Is that how you feel about PhysX also?

Yes. It's the same. The difference is: We have DX and OpenGL. On the other hand no other ISV is interested into effect physics. So GPU-PhysX is the only solution which provides such kind of effects.

You're way over doing this. It's not like developers are suddenly going to skip developing with DirectX or OpenGL. Seriously.

Right now Mantle is only supported by Dice. So BF4 will the first game which shows the effect of it.
But the thing is: If a ISV is using Mantle then why would they programm another api path? Twice the work? I dont think so.
 
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24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
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How about all the games developed in the future for ps4 and xbone?? Compatible low level porting means the PC version will benefit GCN GPUs, period.

AMD >>better<< not use GCN AGAIN at 20nm.

If they aren't using GCN for their 20nm GPUs, they won't get any benefit from this stuff for more than literally half a year give or take.

Trying to fight a new architecture like Maxwell with GCN AGAIN is just madness.
 

Shakabutt

Member
Sep 6, 2012
122
0
71
wowtrainer.net
One good thing about this Mantle thing is that i don't have to upgrade my FX 6100 in the future with all this CPU optimizing thingies in it.

Thanks based DICE
 

Freaksterz

Member
Sep 25, 2013
56
0
0
yes, added cost and complexity that will only benefit GCN GPU owners, so there is not much future for this outside of AMD sponsored games I guess... like GPU physx.

Except that it will be included already since they use pretty much the same API in PS4 XB1 .
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
81
A low level API is always a artificial lock down. It's optimize for a specific hardware. There is no difference to Cuda which only runs on nVidia hardware and a few other processors.
First: I agree with you that it is like CUDA. CUDA is a perfectly excellent tech developed by NV, and is extremely useful.
Second: It's not an artificial lockdown. You need to use the proper terminology. An "artificial" lockdown means it was not needed. CUDA, for example, is not an artificial lockdown. It target's NV's hardware, because it is meant to target a specific architecture, because that's the fastest way to achieve the most performance out of your hardware and arch. So NV needed to do no such artificial lockdowns to make CUDA non-workable in AMD or Intel tech, artificial lockdowns meaning a GPU Vendor ID check, or a GPU Model ID check to see if it is your own company's model, etc. There's no need for that because, by nature of targeting a specific hardware arch, it will automatically not work (fail spectacularly) on a different class of hardware arch.

The same goes for Mantle. Mantle is locked to GCN, like CUDA is locked to NV's archs that support it, because that's the purpose of Mantle - low level access to the hardware for better performance. AMD doesn't need to provide artificial, arbitrary lockdowns, like GPU Vendor ID checks or such, because it will automatically not work on non-GCN hardware. Imagine Mantle as a wooden board having several physical hooks that expect the wall it will attach to must have holes that line up where the hooks are. GCN has those holes in the right place, so the hooks will fit. Other archs will have holes in different places, or have differently shaped holes, or will not have holes at all - whatever the case, the hooks won't line up to the holes, and your wooden board with the hooks can't attach to the wall. That's the best mental image you could have to imagine why bare metal coding is never transferrable to different archs.

So, no artificial lockdowns. But yes, inherently, it will end up locked to GCN.

Now:
There is a reason why Glide died and why we have higher level Apis. A low level graphics api is bringing us right back to the 90s.
DX and OpenGL won't die. With Mantle, AMD is merely leveraging the good fortune they had in sweeping the consoles. These same devs (console devs) will have access to a Mantle-like API to develop on the GCN units in their specific consoles. GCN is also in desktops (with AMD cards), so why not give them this option too?

But make no mistake, it's just an option, and it might be a beneficial one for dev houses that target several consoles + PC. But no developer in their right mind will ever port exclusively to Mantle. That's just insane, because NV and Intel form a much bigger chunk than AMD in PC gaming marketshare.

So at best, if a few dev houses will opt to use Mantle in addition to DX/OpenGL in their PC ports, AMD cards might get the occasional bonus performance in a few games. At worst, only a handful will ever use it (selected Gaming Evolved titles), and it will only be a blip in the radar.

What won't happen, for sure, is that Mantle supplants DX. That's crazy talk. So it's not the end of the sane world of PC gaming. If that is your fear, then don't worry. The chances of that are nil.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Right, but it isn't like a nVidia GPU is suddenly going to be slower or not work?

It will work, it will just be slower, thats exactly the point, since NV GPUs running these future games will go through DX and windows.. on GCN, it will go through Mantle. NV will need a massive hardware grunt advantage to compete, since they are stuck with an inefficient API. Efficiency matters. <<-- this is the point of having a low lvl API for console/PC development.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,726
1,342
136
The main problem I'm seeing here is they literally only said it lowers CPU overhead.

Which tells me it's worthless for people with a setup like I do, and that the magic peddlers that say console GPUs are made of unicorns and rainbows were lying all along, as most here suspected.

Mantle is AMD's answer for the fact that their CPUs are utter trash.

It is what they are pinning their hopes on to make their CPUs and APUs worth buying now and for the future (in gaming).

From the livestream:

"Working with AMD on a solution called Mantle. Close collaboration. Cross-platform, but Windows first. BF4 is the pilot program. Have a native rendering back-end using Mantle with a compatible Radeon GPU. Will give superb GPU performance, better scaling, use all 8 CPU cores, render more in parallel. Really highly optimized GPU usage."
 
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