AMD guy having trouble O/Cing C2D

bomax

Member
Dec 3, 2001
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Can someone explain how the RAM speeds work in relation to the FSB on these C2Ds?
 

RonAKA

Member
Feb 18, 2007
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Originally posted by: bomax
Can someone explain how the RAM speeds work in relation to the FSB on these C2Ds?
It is incredibly stupid Intel "engineer"/marketing terminology:

If you look at CPU-Z on the first tab you will see the "Bus Speed". The CPU runs at a multiplier shown above this times the bus speed to give you the core (CPU) speed, or the commonly advertized speed of the computer. You overclock the cpu by changing the bus speed or multiplier or both.

If you look at the memory tab then you will see that the DRAM runs at the same bus speed times a FSBRAM ratio or multiplier. If this multiplier is 1:1 then the frequency of the DRAM is the same as the bus speed. Careful: note the FSB term is the same number as is called the bus speed on the previous tab!

But that would be too simple to end there. For whatever reason the rating of the DRAM to do this is double this frequency. So if your frequency of the memory is 400 MHz then you need DDR2-800 to ensure it will work without errors.

However, if you increase the voltage from the default 1.8v on the DRAM you are likely to get more than the rated speed out of the memory. The other trick of course is to increase your CPU speed and change your memory multiplier to keep the memory within frequency limits.

Make sense? Probably only to a "Intel engineer", or more likely the marketing dept!

 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
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91
Originally posted by: RonAKA
It is incredibly stupid Intel "engineer"/marketing terminology:

If you look at CPU-Z on the first tab you will see the "Bus Speed". The CPU runs at a multiplier shown above this times the bus speed to give you the core (CPU) speed, or the commonly advertized speed of the computer. You overclock the cpu by changing the bus speed or multiplier or both.

If you look at the memory tab then you will see that the DRAM runs at the same bus speed times a FSBRAM ratio or multiplier. If this multiplier is 1:1 then the frequency of the DRAM is the same as the bus speed. Careful: note the FSB term is the same number as is called the bus speed on the previous tab!

But that would be too simple to end there. For whatever reason the rating of the DRAM to do this is double this frequency. So if your frequency of the memory is 400 MHz then you need DDR2-800 to ensure it will work without errors.

However, if you increase the voltage from the default 1.8v on the DRAM you are likely to get more than the rated speed out of the memory. The other trick of course is to increase your CPU speed and change your memory multiplier to keep the memory within frequency limits.

Make sense? Probably only to a "Intel engineer", or more likely the marketing dept!
Haha, great explanation, Ron. The only thing you forgot to tell him is that on some motherboards, instead of it being called the 1:1 memory ratio, it's called the 266 Mhz or the 533 DDR memory ratio. I think that all Asus boards call it the 533 ratio, for instance, even though the RAM is actually running at 266 Mhz, until you start overclocking.
 

RonAKA

Member
Feb 18, 2007
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Originally posted by: myocardia
Haha, great explanation, Ron. The only thing you forgot to tell him is that on some motherboards, instead of it being called the 1:1 memory ratio, it's called the 266 Mhz or the 533 DDR memory ratio. I think that all Asus boards call it the 533 ratio, for instance, even though the RAM is actually running at 266 Mhz, until you start overclocking.
I didn't want to get into that, but since you raise it, yes it appears the Asus "engineers" had to trump Intel on this one, for supreme stupidity. I can't say I have figured it out for sure, but by trial and error I think what they have done is take your default bus speed and the default DRAM speed and put in a multiplier to ensure on default auto DDR2-800 runs at 400, and 667 at 334.... That makes some good sense for out of the box performance. But to overclock it, you have to go from SPD to Manual and select another DDR2 speed which in effect really just changes the bus to memory multiplier. The only up side is that the BIOS will tell you what the memory will run at with a simulated DDR2 rating as you select different bus speeds. CPU-Z does as well, if you manage to boot up to display it.

Wouldn't it make some sense for the DRAM manufacturer to tell you what frequency it is really rated for, and the motherboard manufacturer to let you select that real frequency in the same terms (not double or half or some goofy proxy for a multiplier)???

Perhaps that would be too simple and everybody would OC their CPU and not buy the same version for more $$ that has it done for you.

 

myocardia

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2003
9,291
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Originally posted by: RonAKA
I didn't want to get into that, but since you raise it, yes it appears the Asus "engineers" had to trump Intel on this one, for supreme stupidity. I can't say I have figured it out for sure, but by trial and error I think what they have done is take your default bus speed and the default DRAM speed and put in a multiplier to ensure on default auto DDR2-800 runs at 400, and 667 at 334.... That makes some good sense for out of the box performance. But to overclock it, you have to go from SPD to Manual and select another DDR2 speed which in effect really just changes the bus to memory multiplier. The only up side is that the BIOS will tell you what the memory will run at with a simulated DDR2 rating as you select different bus speeds. CPU-Z does as well, if you manage to boot up to display it.

Wouldn't it make some sense for the DRAM manufacturer to tell you what frequency it is really rated for, and the motherboard manufacturer to let you select that real frequency in the same terms (not double or half or some goofy proxy for a multiplier)???

Perhaps that would be too simple and everybody would OC their CPU and not buy the same version for more $$ that has it done for you.
What's your mother's name? I think we might have been separated at birth!
 

bomax

Member
Dec 3, 2001
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Thanks for the replies... I didn't mean to come off as ignorant on the overall issues... I've been doing this stuff for quite awhile (been a member of this site for 6 years). The reason I asked is because I just made the switch to Intel after going with AMD for almost 10 years. And now I'm having trouble O/Cing.

When I decrease the mem ratio to 1:1, the max FSB I can hit is 340Mhz. This seems very low compared to others I've seen. My e6700 runs well (3.4ghz) at that FSB but the RAM is only running at 340mhz (or 680 to the marketing department). I would be happy enough with 340 but I'm concerned that I'd be running the RAM pretty slow. Is this what other people are doing as well? How can I fix that?

Also, at stock multiplier I can't increase the FSB at all really, 268 and it will not boot. What is with this??
 

gramboh

Platinum Member
May 3, 2003
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With Asus boards (I'm picking up a P5B Deluxe) what memory divider options are there and what are they listed at? I know from Ron's post above that 1:1 is 533, what do 667 and 800 show up as? 5:4 and 3:2 I'm getting? And these have the effect of running the RAM faster than the FSB?

I'm also assuming 1:1 is the best situation for overall performance. I'm going to be buying an E6600 with OCZ PC2-6400 Platinum Rev2 (or FlexXlc CL4) and hoping to run it at either:

1:1 8x 450FSB/memory (900MHz DDR, CAS5) = 3600MHz
1:1 8x 425FSB/memory (850MHz DDR, CAS4 or 5) = 3400MHz
1:1 8x 400FSB/memory (800MHz DDR, CAS4) = 3200MHz

depending on how my chip performs (crossing fingers). For these settings I'd leave it on 533 in the BIOS for 1:1 correct?
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
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Sound like your hitting the wall with CPU not ram. You will likely have to up the vcore to get past 3.4ghz. You can try droping the cpu multi to 8x and set the FSB at 401, That will give you 3.2ghz with ram at stock DDR2-800. Don't know whats going on with the stock settings not booting at 268?

It would help alot if you give us your full specs mobo, ram, gpu, ps, etc... And the exact settings and voltages that your using
 

bomax

Member
Dec 3, 2001
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I've updated my sig to reflect the system... I had maxed out all voltages except CPU which was at 1.4, and RAM which was at +.4v. I will try increasing it to see if it helps...
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
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3GB of RAM? That could even be part of the problem... better to stick 2x1GB sticks than throwing in another 1GB or worse an additional 2x512MB. Try taking out the extra RAM. Also be careful with the voltages. Maxing out the RAM voltage could be very harmful to the RAM and the CPU shouldn't need too much voltage just to get to 3GHz.
 

bomax

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Dec 3, 2001
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Yes I hit the 3.4Ghz on 1.4v very stable... but that was with the mem ratio at 1:1, so my memory was only running at 340Mhz... too slow. When I increased the mem ratio to the next step (2.5 as listed in bios), it would not even boot (even after reducing FSB to 320Mhz resulting in RAM at 800Mhz -- stock speeds).

This is what led me to believe there is something I'm missing from the equation...
 

RonAKA

Member
Feb 18, 2007
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Originally posted by: gramboh
I'm also assuming 1:1 is the best situation for overall performance. I'm going to be buying an E6600 with OCZ PC2-6400 Platinum Rev2 (or FlexXlc CL4) and hoping to run it at either:
1:1 8x 450FSB/memory (900MHz DDR, CAS5) = 3600MHz
1:1 8x 425FSB/memory (850MHz DDR, CAS4 or 5) = 3400MHz
1:1 8x 400FSB/memory (800MHz DDR, CAS4) = 3200MHz
depending on how my chip performs (crossing fingers). For these settings I'd leave it on 533 in the BIOS for 1:1 correct?

I don't think there is anything magic about a 1:1 ratio. Ideally you want to run the DRAM as fast as it can, perhaps with a little overvoltage to help it, and if needed increased timing settings.

The E6600 runs at 266 stock with a 9X multiplier, and should optimially support 533, 667, and 800 DRAM. So yes to get a 1:1 ratio you would select 533. That may be the lowest you can choose. And unless you can select a higher bus multiplier (don't think you can), then there likely would be no use for the higher ratio settings, and you are limited to the options you list above. 850 is likely possible with over voltage on DDR2-800. Not sure about 900. Others could comment.

 

bomax

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Dec 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: yacoub
3GB of RAM? That could even be part of the problem... better to stick 2x1GB sticks than throwing in another 1GB or worse an additional 2x512MB. Try taking out the extra RAM. Also be careful with the voltages. Maxing out the RAM voltage could be very harmful to the RAM and the CPU shouldn't need too much voltage just to get to 3GHz.

I thought about the 3GB being an issue, but running Vista, I don't think I'd want to run any less RAM than 3gb. It's 2x1gb and 2x512, but all of the same stuff.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
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How do you have your ram installed? To get the full 3gb in dual channel you probably need 1x1gb + 1x512mb in each channel (same colored slots)

Post a screenshot of the memory tab in CPU-z if you can.
 

RonAKA

Member
Feb 18, 2007
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Originally posted by: bomax
Yes I hit the 3.4Ghz on 1.4v very stable... but that was with the mem ratio at 1:1, so my memory was only running at 340Mhz... too slow. When I increased the mem ratio to the next step (2.5 as listed in bios), it would not even boot (even after reducing FSB to 320Mhz resulting in RAM at 800Mhz -- stock speeds).
This is what led me to believe there is something I'm missing from the equation...
Your processor has a X10 multiplier, so your bus is running at 340 MHz. With a 1:1 DRAM multiplier this is a DDR2-680. Yes a bit slow for DDR2-800, and you likely could get away with DDR2-667 and save some $$. I've ran mine there and the memory part works fine. Not sure what you mean by a 2.5 multiplier as the next choice. Those are not ASUS confusion terms. If this means 2.5 X 340 or 850, then yes I would have expected your DDR2-800 to get by with some extra volts. However, I think you said you were at +.4 already. Sounds very high if nominal is 1.8V? 2.2V is usually max.

Have you tried loosening your DRAM timings to 5-5-5-15?

 

bomax

Member
Dec 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
How do you have your ram installed? To get the full 3gb in dual channel you probably need 1x1gb + 1x512mb in each channel (same colored slots)

Post a screenshot of the memory tab in CPU-z if you can.

I put it in [1GB][1GB] [512][512]. I'm not 100% sure this is correct however the mobo manual really didn't help much. CPU-Z reports I'm running in dual channel. I notice when the computer boots that it says "Memory running at Flex Mode."

Here is the screenshot you requested: (Note that I am currently running at stock speeds until I figure this out)

http://www.sigmanengineering.com/CPU-Z.jpg
 

bomax

Member
Dec 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: RonAKA
Your processor has a X10 multiplier, so your bus is running at 340 MHz. With a 1:1 DRAM multiplier this is a DDR2-680. Yes a bit slow for DDR2-800, and you likely could get away with DDR2-667 and save some $$. I've ran mine there and the memory part works fine. Not sure what you mean by a 2.5 multiplier as the next choice. Those are not ASUS confusion terms. If this means 2.5 X 340 or 850, then yes I would have expected your DDR2-800 to get by with some extra volts. However, I think you said you were at +.4 already. Sounds very high if nominal is 1.8V? 2.2V is usually max.

Have you tried loosening your DRAM timings to 5-5-5-15?
I'm using a Gigabyte mobo, and in the BIOS the memory multipliers are somewhat odd, it has 2 (which really means 1:1), and the next step up is 2.5. By changing to 2.5 it wouldn't even boot! I don't understand this since by reducing FSB to 320 this *should* mean the memory is running right at 800Mhz, or stock. Again, this is what made me originally believe I was missing something...
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
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Your correct that would give you the same ram speed as stock, maybe a problem with that particular multi (2.5). Just for grins I would try 401x8 with the 2.0 multi which should give you DDR2-802 and see if that works. I say 401 instead of 400 because that makes sure your on the 1333 strap for internal timings. If that works then I'd say your board doesn't like the 2.5 multi for some reason.

If that is the case you could shoot for 401x9=3.6ghz, but you will have to up the vcore for sure. Or 425x8=3.4ghz, this would push your ram to DDR2-850 which is probably quite doable with looser timings
 

bomax

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Dec 3, 2001
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Well as it turns out I had the memory modules installed incorrectly. By swapping two of them, I was able to remove the message that said "Memory runs at flex mode" and now it says "Memory runs at dual channel interleaved." Which is a good thing.

Edit: By upping CPU volts to 1.48 I was able to pass Orthos at 345mhz... woo hoo! Now I'll continue to go higher... Hopefully the issue was the ram swap after all.
 

bomax

Member
Dec 3, 2001
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My conclusion is that it was indeed the Flex memory issue (really the issue of me inserting the ram sticks into the wrong channels) that was causing my odd behavior. For whatever reason, when this mobo runs in Flex mode, it makes the memory VERY finicky.

As I type this I'm running at 320mhz FSB for a 3.2Ghz clock and 800Mhz RAM at 1.350Vcore. So far so good with the Orthos. Now I want to find a memory benchmark to see if the 2.5 multiplier that I'm using in the BIOS is helping or hurting.

Thanks for all the help guys.
 
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