AMD is sandbagging

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
2,836
218
106
Before R600 was released you could see a negative tone on the interviews done by those high ranked ATI men but when AMD talks about Barcelona they sound like they have a big winner and they make claims that it will crush anything Intel has to offer.
I wanna buy another PC within 6 months and i'm waiting to see how good that cpu will be before i switch to the Intel camp. I don't care about brand loyalty, i like to have the best and if AMD doesn't deliver Intel just got back one more customer.

So what are your thoughts on that? Do you think Barcelona will just be the R600 of cpu's??
 

Noubourne

Senior member
Dec 15, 2003
751
0
76
I disagree that they talked like R600 was going to get de-pantsed by the 6-month old 8800.

I don't think there's any value in comparing the CPU that AMD's engineers built to a GPU that ATI's engineers built.
 

A554SS1N

Senior member
May 17, 2005
804
0
0
Plus on the GPU front, performance is dependant on being unlocked by drivers, while CPU performances is pretty much as it is without all that much in driver tweaks, so less for AMD to work on regards the software side with CPU's.

I think Barcelona will end up being comparable with Core 2 in clock for clock performance overall, at the very least anyway, so expectations in general have to be a little bit on the positive side as it should help AMD keep sales, rather than the current losses.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
The chatter on the Barcelona seems to be mixed. Kyle Bennett and Anand have both expressed excitement in the chip, but then recently the inquirer posted some terrible benchmarks and some other people have expressed concern about the lack of published benchmarks on behalf of AMD.

I personally put more creedence into what Anand/Kyle have to say, and I'm confident that Barcelona will soundly beat anything intel has on the market this July.

Intel will surely counterattack quickly, and from the look of thigs, the CPU world will be very competetive. My guess is that in about 6 months, both AMD and intel will offer very competetive CPUs.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Originally posted by: Noubourne
I disagree that they talked like R600 was going to get de-pantsed by the 6-month old 8800.

I don't think there's any value in comparing the CPU that AMD's engineers built to a GPU that ATI's engineers built.

I think he is talking more about the "Hype" that surrounds the product, rather than the product itself. He is worried that Barcelona will be a repeat of what the hype and final outcome of R600 is. Which is "average".

 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.
 

allies

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2002
2,572
0
71
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.

Link?
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,274
959
136
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.

where
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
0
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.
Kyle was probably drunk again.


 

hardwareking

Senior member
May 19, 2006
618
0
0
i hope it will or atleast pull even with penryn

i dont want intel to succeed to much nor do i want AMD to go down

Us consumers need competition to get decent prices

AMD for all we know might be sand bagging,but if they can bring out a killer chip,then the race is on,although intel will still have the advantage
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,107
2,379
136
AMD could be underestimating what Intel can do: 16 core AMD Barcelona system vs Intel 8 core. It would be a severe blow to AMD if they cant do better than this when Barcelona comes out. Keep in mind that during this time Intel is hard at work too, and their R & D is backed by deeper coffers than AMD.
 

Amaroque

Platinum Member
Jan 2, 2005
2,178
0
0
If I were to speculate... I think IPC will be comparable to Intel.

But if you have two different CPU architectures that perform pretty much equal, and one can OC 800-1000MHz, and the other can OC 400-500MHz on average...
 

ShadowOfMyself

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2006
4,227
2
0
Originally posted by: Conky
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.
Kyle was probably drunk again.

Lol, Kyle, the guy that said C2D wasnt any better than any Athlon X2 when he reviewed it
 

allies

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2002
2,572
0
71
Originally posted by: amenx
AMD could be underestimating what Intel can do: 16 core AMD Barcelona system vs Intel 8 core. It would be a severe blow to AMD if they cant do better than this when Barcelona comes out. Keep in mind that during this time Intel is hard at work too, and their R & D is backed by deeper coffers than AMD.


We don't know if they ran identical benchmarks, so you have to take the results of each benchmark with a huge grain of salt.
 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
277
136
Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself
Originally posted by: Conky
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.
Kyle was probably drunk again.

Lol, Kyle, the guy that said C2D wasnt any better than any Athlon X2 when he reviewed it

Well it really isnt, I mean maybe 5-6% performance difference, the reason why the C2D is doing so well is because it o/c's like crazy.

If C2D did not o/c so well I would still be on my 3800+x2. I believe many others would be also.
 
Feb 20, 2005
181
0
0
Originally posted by: Zstream
Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself
Originally posted by: Conky
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.
Kyle was probably drunk again.

Lol, Kyle, the guy that said C2D wasnt any better than any Athlon X2 when he reviewed it

Well it really isnt, I mean maybe 5-6% performance difference, the reason why the C2D is doing so well is because it o/c's like crazy.

If C2D did not o/c so well I would still be on my 3800+x2. I believe many others would be also.

It's commonly accepted that C2D holds a ~20% advantage, clock for clock against X2 whether stock or overclocked. 5-6% is ludicrous.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,148
4,848
136
Well my opty 175 stock was 2.2 and my e6400 was 2.13 and it was faster than the opty. Oc'd, well the margin increases in favor od c2d. I hope that amd does pull a rabbit out of their hat. If it wasn't for competitoin we wouldn't have the stuff we've got today.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,107
2,379
136
The thing that concerns me is that Intel is playing vicious. The huge price decreases we've seen and that are coming doesnt sound much like competition but rather an attempt to bury AMD or cripple it out of business. They are far bigger and richer than AMD and can withstand massive price cutting much easier than AMD. We'll see.
 

rise

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2004
9,116
46
91
Originally posted by: UncivilizedAMD
Originally posted by: Zstream
Well it really isnt, I mean maybe 5-6% performance difference, the reason why the C2D is doing so well is because it o/c's like crazy.

If C2D did not o/c so well I would still be on my 3800+x2. I believe many others would be also.
It's commonly accepted that C2D holds a ~20% advantage, clock for clock against X2 whether stock or overclocked. 5-6% is ludicrous.
thank you.

and i thought barcelona would be a good part but i also didn't expect this rece3nt delay. i still expect it to do well in the server market but amd gotta get their act together.
 

Amaroque

Platinum Member
Jan 2, 2005
2,178
0
0
AMD has a stronger FP unit. That is important to us AT DCers

The A64 line in general is ~17% faster than the C2D line in DPAD, but it is a bit slower in folding (clock for clock).
 

rise

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2004
9,116
46
91
aren't dual 2900xt's the king cruncher though?

anyway, at dcers won't save amd!! lol.
 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
277
136
Originally posted by: UncivilizedAMD
Originally posted by: Zstream
Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself
Originally posted by: Conky
Originally posted by: SickBeast
You guys need to read the blurb over at HardOCP. Kyle had a hands on with Barcelona and seemed thrilled with it.
Kyle was probably drunk again.

Lol, Kyle, the guy that said C2D wasnt any better than any Athlon X2 when he reviewed it

Well it really isnt, I mean maybe 5-6% performance difference, the reason why the C2D is doing so well is because it o/c's like crazy.

If C2D did not o/c so well I would still be on my 3800+x2. I believe many others would be also.

It's commonly accepted that C2D holds a ~20% advantage, clock for clock against X2 whether stock or overclocked. 5-6% is ludicrous.

Please show me one benchmark that proves this..... You can use price/price ratio if you like.
 

coldpower27

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2004
1,676
0
76
Originally posted by: Zstream
Originally posted by: UncivilizedAMD
It's commonly accepted that C2D holds a ~20% advantage, clock for clock against X2 whether stock or overclocked. 5-6% is ludicrous.

Please show me one benchmark that proves this..... You can use price/price ratio if you like.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2795&p=11

Most of the benches here show a 15-20% improvement from the 4600+ to the E6600.

The general concensus is that it takes a 6000+ to trade blows with the E6600.

 
Feb 20, 2005
181
0
0
Originally posted by: coldpower27
Originally posted by: Zstream
Originally posted by: UncivilizedAMD
It's commonly accepted that C2D holds a ~20% advantage, clock for clock against X2 whether stock or overclocked. 5-6% is ludicrous.

Please show me one benchmark that proves this..... You can use price/price ratio if you like.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2795&p=11

Most of the benches here show a 15-20% improvement from the 4600+ to the E6600.

The general concensus is that it takes a 6000+ to trade blows with the E6600.

Here's another one. E6700 2.66 ghz vs FX-62 2.6 ghz. SimHQ
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
i better not give my personal opinion ... instead, let theinq give their positive spin to it

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39842
The hard numbers are 2200 for an 8 core (4 x 2) Opteron system vs 4000 for a 16 core (4 x 4) Barcelona, or about 1.82 scaling. On the surface, this looks pretty bad, but there are some bright spots.

First the bad, POV is a benchmark that scales really well, almost perfectly with core count. It is largely cache resident, and mainly needs raw number crunching power. POV should get much closer to 2x scaling merely going from 8 to 16 cores. That also discounts any improvement that Barcelona has over Opteron, so theoretically it should scale more than 2x. It didn't.

Back to the good. The CPUs were HE or 65W parts said to be running at the same clock speeds. Now 65W isn't a big trick with the Rev F Opterons, but 65W is a trick with a quad core Barcelona. Intel has a massively downclocked 50W Clovertown as well, so it can be done, but this is not a trivial thing.

Both systems were AMD reference platforms, big, loud and functional, but hardly speed demons. They are there to get things working solidly, not to win benchmarks. That should account for a little speed loss overall, especially as things got faster.

Where is the good? The point AMD was trying to make was not to win benches or show high end capability, but simply to show that with the current HE parts, Barcelona is a drop in upgrade with almost 100% performance increases. No more power, no more anything, just more speed.

If you consider that they both use HT 1.x, the same memory, the same power, and the same everything, 1.8x is not a bad upgrade. Going from an Intel 2C to 4C system can also get you similar scaling increases, it all depends on workload.

One other note about the benchmark itself, POV as downloaded uses a lot of x87 math. The x87 improvements from Opteron to Barcelona are somewhere between nothing and minimal. This is about the worst case scenario to show off a Barcelona, AMD has to have been mad to use it as a benchmark. Well either that or they are sandbagging.

In any case, since there are now numbers that can be worked back to a known starting point, the 8-way Opteron, I asked the good folk at the Inq Suburban Paris Research Labs (ISPRL ? pronounced like 'nonogenarian' if you were wondering) for a hard clock speed.

Simply working the numbers back gets you 1.6-1.7Ghz for the Opterons on a more performance tuned platform. All the tested numbers came up as 1.8Ghz, but we have reason to believe the demo boxes might have been a clock bin up from that.

In any case, you could do this with a store bought 1.8Ghz Opteron box so that is the numbers we will be going with. Any loss due to the platform would be equally reflected in both sets of numbers, so it seems like a fair comparison.

So now you know, 1.8GHz is doable now in a 65W AMD quad core. When HT3 parts come with Socket G, speeds will certainly improve, but you can look forward to at least a 1.8x increase with drop in parts
 
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