AMD launches Ryzen Mobile 7 2700U & 5 2500U with Vega Graphics

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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,172
3,868
136
No. It isn't only the backlight. The screen has switching transistors at each pixel. There are 4X as many of these transistors in a 4K screens.

Transistors are used as switches and account for nothing, it s the leds that consume the power, here there are 4x the led count per unity of surface, unless the leds used in 4K screens are of abyssimal efficency they will produce the same luxes at a given power as a screen that has half the led count, this latter will have its leds driven with twice the power to get the same screen light as the 4K screen...
 
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PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
Transistors are used as switches and account for nothing, it s the leds that consume the power, here there are 4x the led count per unity of surface, unless the leds used in 4K screens are of abyssimal efficency they will produce the same luxes at a given power as a screen that has half the led count, this latter will have its leds driven with twice the power to get the same screen light as the 4K screen...

No there aren't 4x the LED count. The LED is the back light. The screen is the LCD based. The transistors control LCD twist status, and more transistors do consumer more power.

A 4K LCD screen of the same size/brightness will consumer more power than an HD screen, so screen resolution is a confounding factor for something like idle power.
 
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docp

Senior member
Jul 4, 2007
206
0
76
what are laptops available with these chips?
all I can find is HP 360 systems.
pls post few config.which re available to buy.
 

CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
1,114
1,153
136
No there aren't 4x the LED count. The LED is the back light. The screen is the LCD based. The transistors control LCD twist status, and more transistors do consumer more power.

A 4K LCD screen of the same size/brightness will consumer more power than an HD screen, so screen resolution is a confounding factor for something like idle power.
That and usually it's slightly more intensive to output a 4K image from the hardware, which needs to happen even when idle.

That said, higher resolution screens don't really take an appreciable amount of extra energy with IPS panels. They do, but it's slight. It's when you enter OLED territory is when you start getting issues with res, since each pixel is literally its own light source.
 

lefty2

Senior member
May 15, 2013
240
9
81
About LPDDR3 memory: Raven ridge does not support this, but that may not be as important as you think it is.
The advantage of LPDDR3 is much lower idle power. The 2500U draws 5.9W idle, the i5-8550U draws 4.1W (according to notebookcheck).
That's great, but what if you want decent graphics? Well, the GDDR5 and dGPU combo is going to throw your low power idle target out the window. A 8550U with GeForce MX150, draws 11.6W idle. The best option for low power and respectable graphics is probably Raven Ridge.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Man i regret buying a kbl i3 hp 15w tdp laptop for one of the kids 2 months ago. Stupid. This apu wil run 1080 at aprox 30% higher fps than the 620 gpu at 720!
Its much more efficient than i thought. Gpu perf midway between 940mx and 150mx! Crazy.

Keep trying to find reason to buy kbl. Like finding a needle in a haystack.
For like 130% faster gpu. No way. After a string of 6 ultrabooks i am done with this slow gpu. Not to mention the throtling is really next to nonixisting on the model tested here. Keep looking for the needle...

Its just nothing but impressive. It crushes the intel solution. No other way to frame 130% difference all other things more or less the same if not better. If anyone want a kbl be my guest. Useless overpriced stuff vs this imo.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,670
136
No there aren't 4x the LED count. The LED is the back light. The screen is the LCD based. The transistors control LCD twist status, and more transistors do consumer more power.

A 4K LCD screen of the same size/brightness will consumer more power than an HD screen, so screen resolution is a confounding factor for something like idle power.
And yet, Apple MacBook Pro retina display (IPS) from latest generation is using less power than non retina TN panel from mid 2012 MBP. While having 4 times bigger resolution( 2880x1800 vs 1440x900).

Everything depends on the technology used in the displays.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,670
136
Its just nothing but impressive. It crushes the intel solution. No other way to frame 130% difference all other things more or less the same if not better. If anyone want a kbl be my guest. Useless overpriced stuff vs this imo.
If it would have any type of dedicated high bandwidth memory and was sold on desktop...
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
If it would have any type of dedicated high bandwidth memory and was sold on desktop...
Naa. We have like 2 desktops in the house with powerfull stuff. But all members have a 15w machine for school/work/light gaming.
I guess most households these days run or intend to buy slim 15w machines. Desktop gets no sale vs this market. 4 cores is really nice here but 130% gpu perf uplift is perhaps even more needed.
I dont think apu is remotely interesting for standard desktop but zen2 with some vega plus hbm made on 7nm for same total power envelope as this stuff is really interesting.
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,142
550
146
Since the Internet likes comparing wildly different laptops, I thought: how accurate the "Total system power" sensor is in HWiNFO?

Acer E5-575G-55KK: Intel Core i5-7200U -0.115 V, 2x8 GB RAM, {NVIDIA GeForce 940MX (GM107-B variant) 997.5 MHz, 2 GB GDDR5 1.6 GT/s}, built-in display off, HDD replaced with SSD.
~36 W
 

The Stilt

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2015
1,709
3,057
106
Since the Internet likes comparing wildly different laptops, I thought: how accurate the "Total system power" sensor is in HWiNFO?

Acer E5-575G-55KK: Intel Core i5-7200U -0.115 V, 2x8 GB RAM, {NVIDIA GeForce 940MX (GM107-B variant) 997.5 MHz, 2 GB GDDR5 1.6 GT/s}, built-in display off, HDD replaced with SSD.
~36 W

The "Total System Power" displayed by HWInfo isn't the actual "Total System Power" but the total consumption of the SoC and the DRAM combined.
On a laptop the best way to measure the actual total power draw is to monitor the battery discharge rate.
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,142
550
146
On a laptop the best way to measure the actual total power draw is to monitor the battery discharge rate.
I disconnected charger and tested again with same setup.
The LGC AS16A8K battery has a sensor, and the magnitude of "Charge rate" is ~36 W, while "Total system power" decreased a bit.

My message is I can get much lower power numbers than Notebook Check's, although the changes I've done far beyond what an average user would do.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
AMD isn't likely to sell an SoC into an Apple laptop anytime soon, so that's not really a concern.

AMD chips tend to go into lower cost laptops whereas LPDDR is for more expensive computers, so it's not a surprise that Raven Ridge only supports standard DDR4. The systems AMD will reasonably have a chance of winning with these chips aren't expensive enough for LPDDR to be viable.

AMD chips have been going into cheap laptops because they sucked. Raven Ridge doesn't appear to suck.

Do you honestly not think that this would be a good option for Apple's dGPU-less laptops, like the 13" MBP? They'd be replacing the 28W i5-7267U with Raven Ridge, getting two extra cores and a fantastic GPU in the process. Sounds like a good product to me.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
136
AMD clearly has the better product with RavenRidge, lets see if they can manage to take advantage of it and make the money they should make from a product like that.
 
May 11, 2008
20,068
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No there aren't 4x the LED count. The LED is the back light. The screen is the LCD based. The transistors control LCD twist status, and more transistors do consumer more power.

A 4K LCD screen of the same size/brightness will consumer more power than an HD screen, so screen resolution is a confounding factor for something like idle power.

The liquid crystals behave a bit like tiny variable capacitors, and although there are more tft transistors, the power consumption is still very low. For surely when comparing to what a backlight consumes.
Led is alread a big improvement compared to the old tubes based backlight.
It is the backlight that consumes the most power. IMHO with a 4K screen, there needs to be a more powerful backlight anyway when compared to a 1920*1080 screen.
Because for the same physical size , the pixels are smaller letting less light through, also, these are tft screens meaning all the (tft) electronics are on the glass it self.
For a human perception of having the same contrast, the backlight should be more powerful.
At least, that makes sense to me.

And if the lcd controller (that gets its data from the gpu) that switches al those tiny transistors consumes more power than a HD screen controller, i would say that depend on what process it is build.
That is a variable too.
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
And if the lcd controller (that gets its data from the gpu) that switches al those tiny transistors consumes more power than a HD screen controller, i would say that depend on what process it is build.

If one was being smart about it, wouldn't you rig it so only changed pixels switch? There is no reason to refresh static pixels. If you have a mostly static image, you could cut down severely on panel refresh rates too. Don't exactly need 144Hz refresh rate to read a page of text (though its nice).

Disclaimer, I only know the basics of panel technology...
 

prtskg

Senior member
Oct 26, 2015
261
94
101
AMD clearly has the better product with RavenRidge, lets see if they can manage to take advantage of it and make the money they should make from a product like that.
It's a good product but it's first generation for Zen mobile so I don't expect anything extraordinary. It'll definitely improve AMD's monetary situation that's for sure. I'll build at least one system based on the desktop raven when it comes.
 
May 11, 2008
20,068
1,292
126
If one was being smart about it, wouldn't you rig it so only changed pixels switch? There is no reason to refresh static pixels. If you have a mostly static image, you could cut down severely on panel refresh rates too. Don't exactly need 144Hz refresh rate to read a page of text (though its nice).

Disclaimer, I only know the basics of panel technology...

I also know the basics only but from work experience and hobby experience :

The TFT transistors in a TFT liquid crystal display are connected to the liquid crystal pixels in a x,y matrix configuration.
And this is the case for all individual red, green and blue pixels.
This reduces the connections needed to address every single pixel.
An lcd controller switches the individual liquid crystals by addressing an x row and an y column. And does this at a very rapid speed.
I think it selects for example a x row and then activates all the y column pixels with a bias voltage. But i am not sure about this.
By varying the voltage on the pixel, it twists more or less and lets more or less light through , creating color intensity and contrast.
It needs to refresh the crystals because the crystals will return to there default position when not driven.
Changing only one crystal would need an individual tft signal for each pixel. That is impossible.


Gsync and freesync monitors are not interesting for me because they cannot go down to 0Hz.
They make it sound like the lcd controller in the monitor is way more expensive, but i find it strange because these monitors still have a minimum refresh rate as if it does not have its own dedicated ram.
Most monitors have only a small amount of dedicated ram just enough to display the OSD (on screen display menu) even when no signal is present.
When you move the OSD around the ram for the OSD gets mapped to different x rows and y columns, giving the idea of moving it around the entire screen.


Assuming that a future gsync and freesync monitor has its own dedicated ram for the signal allowing refresh rates as low a 0Hz (gpu to lcd refresh rate, the panel itselfs still needs to be refhreshed),
A HD monitor would need :
1920*1080* (3bytes for color) = 6075 kB of memory.
A 4K monitor would need
3840*2160*(3 bytes) = 24300kB of memory.

And the best way would even be to have two buffers of this ram.
Doubling the amount.
Then one can be filled with data by the gpu while the other is used by the lcd panel controller to drive the pixels.
After that flip the two ram buffers and display the content again.
It is a bit what a gpu does with double buffering or even triple buffering, but it would also work for an lcd screen that can go from 0Hz to 144Hz.
(edit forgot to mention that this also completely eliminates screen tearing as long as the gpu does not produce the screen tearing).
And current gsync and free sync monitors have still some need of refreshing hence the minum required Hz.

So a static image would reduce communication between gpu and lcd controller and power usage and even allows the gpu core and the memory controller(when it issues a self refresh command to the dram chips) to completely halt and become static until there is new gpu data to be calculated, but not necessarily be transmitted to to the lcd (think gpu cpompute).
But this future 0Hz to 144Hz only works on a static image.
It does greatly reduce power consumption and emi (electromagnetic interference) noise at the same time.
 
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trparky

Junior Member
Mar 2, 2008
14
0
76
This may seem like a really dumb question but... why the 2 in 2700u and 2500u? Wouldn't the 2 indicate Zen+? I guess my question is why the mobile chip numbers start with a 2 when the desktop versions start with a 1.
 

scannall

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2012
1,948
1,640
136
This may seem like a really dumb question but... why the 2 in 2700u and 2500u? Wouldn't the 2 indicate Zen+? I guess my question is why the mobile chip numbers start with a 2 when the desktop versions start with a 1.
Yes, it's Zen+ cores.
 

trparky

Junior Member
Mar 2, 2008
14
0
76
Alrighty then... Zen+ cores it is. Cool. Now I guess the question is has anyone down-clocked a desktop Ryzen version 1 chip to meet the clock speeds of one of these mobile chips and measured the IPC difference? If so, has IPC been increased?
 

scannall

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2012
1,948
1,640
136
Alrighty then... Zen+ cores it is. Cool. Now I guess the question is has anyone down-clocked a desktop Ryzen version 1 chip to meet the clock speeds of one of these mobile chips and measured the IPC difference? If so, has IPC been increased?
They'd have to dwonclock the ram as well to 2400.
 
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