AMD Nano Blacklist Situation

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Jaydip

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2010
3,691
21
81
You know whats funny is that most AMD folks here consider SKYMTL to be a biased reviewer but he got one to review, man the irony lol
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
10,376
762
126
There is a huge difference between journalists and shills.
It is pretty obvious which sites belong to each category.

The shills just care about how much free stuff they can get, and the more clicks they can generate. This in turns means a bigger payday for them.

The true journalists are the ones that would go out and actually buy the product in question, and then do a honest review on that product.

But, that don't mean a shill site won't buy the product in question, and then paint the card in a bad light as possible, in order to generate more clicks and have a smear campaign, and laugh all the way to the bank.

This is why all true journalists shouldn't accept free products from anyone.

This site is a good example of being able to afford ANY card/product they want, and write a truly unbiased review, but instead, they go with the "gimme stuff!" route, since they figure they are entitled to it, and you can see how that ended up with the misinformation that still hasn't been corrected in charts, and the soft balling of 'heated issues' like the 970 RAM partition.

It is just one ugly business these days, where their only agenda is to generate more $$$ no matter what it takes, truth be damned.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
The true journalists are the ones that would go out and actually buy the product in question, and then do a honest review on that product.

By that definition, Consumer Reports is the only true group of journalists. You think Motor Trend buys the cars they test or Sound & Vision buys the home theater equipment they test? No one in any field buys the products they review on a regular basis.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,556
2,139
146
Companies should be able to choose to whom they give free product to without everyone throwing a fit.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
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I dont know... it could be that AMD simply cannot afford to give away more than a few Nanos. Sorry to say it but at this point a single $600 card represents a significant portion of AMD's profits!

AMD hasn't made any profits for a long time.
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,116
695
126
Honestly, Kyle's article was just one long rant. It was one of the most unprofessional articles I've read with the over the top swearing and sour grapes attitude. I was feeling deja vu with AB's explosion a few years ago.
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
10,376
762
126
By that definition, Consumer Reports is the only true group of journalists. You think Motor Trend buys the cars they test or Sound & Vision buys the home theater equipment they test? No one in any field buys the products they review on a regular basis.

You are comparing stuff that costs under $1000 (for the most part) to stuff that costs $25K+?

What we need is either a CR type of site for these kind of products, or, as I have said in the past, to have community sponsored reviews by trusted forum member(s) (Yes, the card can be passed to multiple people to do multiple reviews.), and when the review(s) are done, the card is raffled away to all the people that contributed.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
You are comparing stuff that costs under $1000 (for the most part) to stuff that costs $25K+?

Strawman's argument. Name any site that buys all the products they review.


What we need is either a CR type of site for these kind of products, or, as I have said in the past, to have community sponsored reviews by trusted forum member(s) (Yes, the card can be passed to multiple people to do multiple reviews.), and when the review(s) are done, the card is raffled away to all the people that contributed.

No, we don't. They're video cards. There are enough review sites to be able to eliminate outliers in the results. I don't understand the constant bitching about what games sites use to review cards as if it is an intentional attempt to make the products look bad. If you don't play those games, it's irrelevant information. What is so hard about ignoring those, and focusing on the games you do play? Just because you don't play those games, doesn't mean that nobody else does either.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
Strawman's argument.

That's not a strawman argument at all. A strawman argument is arguing with a point the person never made but acting like that person did in fact make that point, and tearing down that point that was never made.

His point is that its not impossible to buy everything in video cards (only 2 vendors, cards almost never break ~$700) on a reviewing website budget while its impossible to buy every car or motorcycle when theres dozens of brands and each unit is $14,000 to 100's of thousands of dollars. i.e. apples to oranges.

This is a valid point, while it does not refute your point directly, it is not a strawman.

In fact, the only true strawman in this back and forth is:
pariah said:
You think Motor Trend buys the cars they test or Sound & Vision buys the home theater equipment they test?
A point which he demonstrably never said until you did.

It could be that he's just saying no reviewers but consumer reports are high quality reviewers.
 
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ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
7
81
Read the anandtech review comments, it's full of "I won't look at this card till I get a full set of reviews, especially the ones AMD didn't give cards too". This was a stupid by AMD :

1) their PR bloke basically saying sites are biased, way to upset a lot of journalists who sell your cards whether AMD like it or not. He didn't need to open his mouth like that, just don't give them the card and keep quiet.

2) do this for the nano. Of all cards why this one? They will probably only make about 1000 of them in total and they will have negligible influence on AMD's bottom line. Why burn all your bridges to get more favorable reviews out in the first week when you can only sell about 100 of them as that's all you have.

Really so obviously fighting all the people who help you sell your cards is stupid, it just means everyone assumes your card must be rubbish as that's why you wouldn't hand it out (because you know if nano had rocked AMD would have given everyone one). In addition you alienate yourself to fans of each of the forums you accused of bias, a significant % of the high end gpu community. Whether you think the [H] community are all *menchildren* or not they have deep wallets and buy gpu's - really really dumb then to make them all hate you, especially for such a minor niche card as nano.

Off topic: AMD charging Nvidia for HBM - they can't, they have a cross licensing agreement with Nvidia. This is exactly the sort of thing it stops.

My mind is blown. This was am incredibly stupid move over such a low volume card
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
That's not a strawman argument at all. A strawman argument is arguing with a point the person never made but acting like that person did in fact make that point, and tearing down that point that was never made.

His point is that its not impossible to buy everything in video cards (only 2 vendors, cards almost never break ~$700) on a reviewing website budget while its impossible to buy every car or motorcycle when theres dozens of brands and each unit is $14,000 to 100's of thousands of dollars. i.e. apples to oranges.

This is a valid point, while it does not refute your point directly, it is not a strawman.

In fact, the only true strawman in this back and forth is: A point which he demonstrably never said until you did.

It could be that he's just saying no reviewers but consumer reports are high quality reviewers.

Yes, it is. The point he countered was clearly not the point I was making. I picked obvious examples that everyone could understand, but followed those up with overall point being made:

"No one in any field buys the products they review on a regular basis."

Which he completely ignored. That's a textbook straw man argument.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
Not a strawman. You got it wrong dude, sorry. A key part of the strawman is to ATTRIBUTE the strawman (fake) point to the original speaker.

You can address different points in a debate, that doesn't make it a strawman. What makes it a strawman is the responder saying "You believe Y? Y is wrong, therefore you are wrong." when the original speaker said "I believe X. X is right."

What's happened here is "I believe X. X is right." then someone else says "I believe Y. Y is right." These can coexist and are not mutually exclusive. He can have a point and you can also have a point without it being a strawman.

Here's an example of a strawman:
pariah said:
You think Motor Trend buys the cars they test or Sound & Vision buys the home theater equipment they test?
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Honestly, Kyle's article was just one long rant. It was one of the most unprofessional articles I've read with the over the top swearing and sour grapes attitude. I was feeling deja vu with AB's explosion a few years ago.

I remember a few years ago he went after Nvidia for something. He is an equal opportunity basher. Which is why it is so funny the AMD fanboys hate him now.
 

SimianR

Senior member
Mar 10, 2011
609
16
81
You know whats funny is that most AMD folks here consider SKYMTL to be a biased reviewer but he got one to review, man the irony lol

Hardocp was trying to convince people that AMD were giving out the cards to sites they would assume would give them a favorable review - but it seems like there really wasn't any rhyme or reason to whom they gave cards - Linus seems to think its just on a rotation since he didn't receive a 295x2 to review, but did get a Nano.
 

Runequest2

Member
Jun 14, 2000
88
0
66
My gut feeling is that review sites who are blacklisted will buy a nano and test it then return it within the return window.

I bet they only generate a returned product and not an actual sale.

Plus of course an auto bad review.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
My mind is blown. This was am incredibly stupid move over such a low volume card

No, it's not. Long-term, it's actually a very good strategy because it undermines the influence of a small but very vocal minority that does the most damage to your brand. Sites with the most biased forum members that lack objectivity, often do far more long-term damage. Did you ever read comments from forum members of sites like TechReport or HardOCP or ABT? Most of the members on those sites would never have purchased the Nano even if it beat NV in every metric in the world and cost $399. In fact, how many of the people who were bashing AMD's R9 290/Fury series even had any intentions on buying the Nano? Almost none of them did.

Also, there is a difference between reviewing videogame performance and reviewing videocards when providing purchasing/upgrading recommendations. HardOCP fails to understand this point.

In HardOCP's latest review, they tested just 5 games, while Computerbase tested 18 games, almost 4X as many games.

Since a lot of PC gamers could play a wide variety of games across various game engines, which review do you think is far more representative of the overall performance of a graphics card? During the last console generation, the most demanding games we had were Metro, Crysis, Witcher, Skyrim/GTA IV modded and a couple other games -- that's it. That means if a GPU could play those games well, it could play any game well. Right now we are still only into 1/3 cycle of the PS4/XB1 consoles which means games will continue to get more demanding and that means the review needs to cover a lot of games, not like it was during the last 2-3 years of PS360 generation PC ports. If someone is trying to recommend a graphics card, you want to include as many games as you physically can test to try to get a better overall viewpoint of how the card performs in a variety of games/game engines.

The other major issues is that the owners of TechReport and HardOCP have very strong opinions about AMD cards, prior to testing them and they both have double standards wrt to price/performance on AMD vs. NV cards. Neither of those sites called NV out on awful launch price/performance of cards like GTX780, Titan or Titan X. Both of those sites failed to do sufficient testing on GTX960 2GB's lack of VRAM as well. In TR's podcasts, there were already major negatives/discussions thrown at Fury X's 4GB VRAM bottleneck, how AMD won't improve the tessellation performance over R9 290X, etc.

Remember how KitGuru speculated about Fury X failing to match NV and so on and they made a video with all the negativity regarding AMD as a company and HBM/Fury X? Imagine if a website like PhoneArena or GSMArena or ArsTechnica or CNET made such a video about the future launch of iPhone 6S, proclaiming how it barely catches up in features to Samsung/Sony/LG phones with 5MP front camera, 4K video, etc. Would that be professional?

Does Samsung or Apple get bashed by reviewers for paper launching Samsung S6, iPhone 6S, iPad Pro? Are you kidding?!

After reading Guru3D, Computerbase, Sweclockers, PCGameshardware, Hardware.fr, AT, TPU for GPU reviews, what extra value do sites like TR or HardOCP actually add for videocard purchase recommendations? Their reviews aren't as extensive as their competitors and their recommendations are often biased. For example, the Nano occupies its own small niche of the world's fastest small-ITX GPU, much like the Titan series occupies its small niche. Did HardOCP respond to Nano's high price the same way it responded to Titan/Titan X's high prices? Not at all -- it's a double standard.

Forget the Nano as <1% of all PC gamers will buy it. Look at their reviews of GTX960 2GB cards as an example of failing to give good advice to consumers. :sneaky:

2. You are saying Tech Report isn't fair. That's flat out wrong.

Oh really? Like when TR ignored frame times issues of Fermi cards despite the data in their own testing showing it, how TR ignored to revisit HD7970/CF series when drivers improved to show that HD7990/7970Ghz CF was a far better solution than GTX690/680 SLI after the drivers were much improved, how TR ignored to discuss 290X CF/Fury X CF XDMA frame times smoothness over 780 SLI and 780Ti SLI? How TR ignored the existence of after-market HD7970Ghz/R9 290/290X cards for basically the entirety of their existence? How TR blatantly came up with ludicrous reasons to do everything possible to recommend GTX960 in their reviews and ignoring all the advantages of R9 280X/after-market 290 cards?

TR and HardOCP lost all credibility long before the Nano and Fury X came out. Both of those sites were a write-off after their GTX960 reviews. At least TPU showed they are objective:

"NVIDIA simply cannot get the pricing of its sub-$300 lineup right and continues to offer nothing compelling until the $310 GeForce GTX 970.The company may yet make a ton of money with their mid-range line-up, but that's only because of its better sales-force. The Radeon R9 290 TurboDuo from PowerColor is a gem.

At just $249, the Radeon R9 290 TurboDuo offers current-gen tech. Our tests show that the R9 290 is a whopping 52 percent faster than the $50 cheaper GeForce GTX 960 at 1920 x 1080 pixels, our target resolution. It also offers 4 GB of video memory.PowerColor added a factory overclock on top of that. If this doesn't highlight NVIDIA's terrible pricing for the GTX 960, nothing will.

When you're building on a tight budget, brute frame-rates gain much more weight over other factors, like power and noise. The R9 290 certainly won't beat the GTX 960 at the two, which is both slower and $49 cheaper, but that's a small price to pay for 52% more performance, a crucial factor once your machine starts to show its age as newer games get increasingly more taxing. There could be situations where 52% more performance spells the difference between "playable" and "slideshow."
~ TPU


I never read anything of the sort from HardOCP or TR in their GTX960 reviews.

You cannot possibly be an objective 'hardcore/enthusiast hardware' review site and recommend a GTX960 2GB for $200 for gaming when after-market R9 290 cards are 50% faster, have 50% more VRAM, are cool, quiet and cost $50 more. That's akin to recommending HD7770 over HD6950 2GB/GTX560Ti/6970 because is has superior perf/watt, more advanced feature set/architecture and saves on electricity costs.

Do you remember TR or HardOCP recommending HD7770 over GTX560Ti or HD6950 unlocked? See these sites lack consistency when it comes to what metrics actually matter. Today it's perf/watt, tomorrow it's overclocking, next month it's VRAM, then it's frame latency, then it's GW's performance.

TR does a stand-alone article if 4GB of VRAM is a limitation for gaming but provides little warning to prospective buyers of GTX960 2GB cards about their VRAM limitation issues.

Sorry, these sites claim they try to provide objective advice to gamers but their reviews and data and conclusions they write keep proving otherwise. IMO, the issue for these sites stems far deeper than not getting a Nano review sample. It's about trust and relying on the reviewer to provide a solid review with a lot of data, consistency, and end it with a solid conclusion and possible alternatives.

If certain sites don't call out GTX960/980/Titan X cards for their awful price/performance, but then they have an issue with the Nano's $649 price and yet it's the fastest smallest mini-ITX card, they aren't being consistent. If a site has a heavy focus on price/performance, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not recommending the Nano, but then I would have expected the same treatment for the GTX980 $550 vs. $280-300 R9 290X and $250-260 R9 290 vs. $200 GTX960 but yet we don't see that....
 
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Jaydip

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2010
3,691
21
81
Hardocp was trying to convince people that AMD were giving out the cards to sites they would assume would give them a favorable review - but it seems like there really wasn't any rhyme or reason to whom they gave cards - Linus seems to think its just on a rotation since he didn't receive a 295x2 to review, but did get a Nano.

My point is people want to see their favorite brands winning in benches and when it isn't the case they are biased.
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
101
Strawman's argument. Name any site that buys all the products they review.




No, we don't. They're video cards. There are enough review sites to be able to eliminate outliers in the results. I don't understand the constant bitching about what games sites use to review cards as if it is an intentional attempt to make the products look bad. If you don't play those games, it's irrelevant information. What is so hard about ignoring those, and focusing on the games you do play? Just because you don't play those games, doesn't mean that nobody else does either.

Yep, that why there are 4 benches of project cars included in aggregate score in pclabs gpu reviews. They didn't get the free nano obivously...

Not a single person ever linked "average performance" graph...ever!
 

boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
I remember a few years ago he went after Nvidia for something. He is an equal opportunity basher. Which is why it is so funny the AMD fanboys hate him now.
I love how you ninja bash everyone in this thread who thinks most of the shills deserves it. that was pretty deftly done. :twisted::biggrin:
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,012
2,284
136
Last time I heard about shills and biased reviews was... Intel vs AMD CPUs. That basically stopped when those making such arguments eventually switched to Intel.
 
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