AMD Navi at TSMC 7nm

[Yotsugi]

Vega suffers the same frontend bottleneck as Fiji, equal fiji. That's why i think that Vega is not the rework from scratch(As it was from R800 to GCN i.e.) that we are looking for.

Their Next-Gen Geometry pipe literally screams "REWORK FROM SCRATCH".

 

[raghu78]

Their Next-Gen Geometry pipe literally screams "REWORK FROM SCRATCH".

The problem for RTG/AMD is they cannot execute a GPU launch perfectly like Nvidia has been doing even if their life depended on it. Having whitepapers talk about NGG performance is ridiculous if you cannot implement it in drivers at launch. Right now Vega is a failed chip. Can AMD fix the problems that plague Vega , both hardware and software wise. 2018 will tell us if RTG is improving execution or further falling behind Nvidia in GPUs.

 

[Yotsugi]

The problem for RTG/AMD is they cannot execute a GPU launch perfectly like Nvidia has been doing even if their life depended on it.

But Evergreen was executed perfectly.
Heck Vega is the first problematic GPU launch in ages.

Having whitepapers talk about NGG performance is ridiculous if you cannot implement it in drivers at launch.

You gotta sacrifice something. Radeon Pro & Apple shekels > consumer cards no one will buy anyway because they lack nVidia sticker.

Can AMD fix the problems that plague Vega

There's only one problem, being software.

further falling behind Nvidia in GPUs.

Oh, the same mantras as before R700 launch.
I swear people never learn.

 

[raghu78]

But Evergreen was executed perfectly.

Evergreen launched in 2009 . Thats 8 years ago and considered forever in GPU industry cycles.

Heck Vega is the first problematic GPU launch in ages.

No. Fiji was a disaster.

You gotta sacrifice something. Radeon Pro & Apple shekels > consumer cards no one will buy anyway because they lack nVidia sticker.

AMD had 38% discrete GPU market share in Q2 2014. Then Maxwell arrived in Q3 2014 and the rest is history.

There's only one problem, being software.

Gamers buy working graphics cards like GTX 1080 Ti and GTX 1080 not problems like Vega.

Oh, the same mantras as before R700 launch.
I swear people never learn.

Until AMD execute for a couple of generations I refuse to believe a turnaround is round the corner.

 

[Yotsugi]

Fiji was a disaster.

How so? The GPU itself was meh.

AMD had 38% discrete GPU market share in Q2 2014.

While offering better, cheaper, or better and cheaper GPUs? Come on, that's not how "competition" meme works.

Gamers buy working graphics cards like GTX 1080 Ti and GTX 1080 not problems like Vega.

Gamers also buy nVidia only for some reason.

Until AMD execute for a couple of generations I refuse to believe a turnaround is round the corner.

As I said, same mantras.

 

[Rifter]

You gotta sacrifice something. Radeon Pro & Apple shekels > consumer cards no one will buy anyway because they lack nVidia sticker.

People arnt buying it because it is not a good buy Vs the current Nvidia cards. Bottom line is if you want to sell cards you need to get both the performance and perf/watt in line with your competition, or sell it for a big enough discount that the price being lower makes up for the lack of perf or perf/watt or both.

Vega doesnt match Nvidia in either outright performance or perf/watt and is selling for close enough to the same price as Nvidia cards. No one is buying it because its a bad deal, plain and simple.

The lack of a Nvidia sticker has nothing to do with it.

I waited for Vega and wanted it to succeed as much as anyone, but it is what it is and thats a failure at current performance/pricing.

 

[Yotsugi]

People arnt buying it because it is not a good buy Vs the current Nvidia cards.

People don't buy Radeon in general.
It's that simple.

perf/watt

Does this even matter?
Oh wait it does since Maxwell, sorry pal, I was wrong.

 

[Rifter]

People don't buy Radeon in general.
It's that simple.

Does this even matter?
Oh wait it does since Maxwell, sorry pal, I was wrong.

People will generally buy the best bang for the buck if they at least do any research into the subject, ive owned just as many radeon cards as Nvidia, even a few 3dfx cards while they were around, i dont discriminate ill buy whatever is best bang for buck.

Some people are fanboys and then they will buy whatever their brand puts out, you cant really so much about these buyers so they really arnt worth considering, you need to focus on the other buyers who buy based on reviews/facts/performance, but to do this you need to offer the performance. This is where AMD went wrong with vega, releasing a product a year and a half after the competition that doesnt even match it let alone beat it was a horrible idea any way you try and spin it, and the non-fanboy buyers didnt miss this fact, thats why its not selling well. Had they released a card better than a 1080Ti it would be selling like hotcakes assuming it wasnt priced to the moon.

 

[Yotsugi]

if they at least do any research into the subject

Most people don't.
That's the point.

This is where AMD went wrong with vega, releasing a product a year and a half after the competition that doesnt even match it let alone beat it was a horrible idea any way you try and spin it

They don't really care about consumer chips as long as Apple buys chips and Pro boards are selling (and these are very, very good performers for some reason).
For some reason consumer AMD GPUs never move in significant volumes unless mining boom happens.

 

[Excessi0n]

Does this even matter?
Oh wait it does since Maxwell, sorry pal, I was wrong.

Performance per watt has mattered since the power draw of high-end cards topped out at ~300 watts. Vega is a failure because the performance per watt nosedives when you try to push it past a certain point and that point is not high enough to be competitive. Well, okay, it's also a failure since all the fancy new architectural features seem to have done jack for its performance/FLOP.

It is good in compute though, to its credit.

 

[Yotsugi]

Performance per watt has mattered since the power draw of high-end cards topped out at ~300 watts.

I don't remember people caring about it buying Thermi or Hawaii cards.
No one cares as long as price/performance is decent.

Well, okay, it's also a failure since all the fancy new architectural features seem to have done jack for its performance/FLOP.

Fancy new features are sitting disabled eagerly waiting their time.

 

[Rifter]

Most people don't.
That's the point.

They don't really care about consumer chips as long as Apple buys chips and Pro boards are selling (and these are very, very good performers for some reason).
For some reason consumer AMD GPUs never move in significant volumes unless mining boom happens.

They had great market share when they had great cards, back in the x800 and x1000 days, over 45%. They they had good market share back when they had good cards 5xxx, 6xxxx and 7xxx series and into the R200. They were able to sustain 30-35%+ market share. They started to really suffer when their cards started to not perform as well, Started with maxwell but When the Gforce 9xx came out it was really game over, and has been since then, in the last 3-4 years AMD has just not been able to deliver the performance it needs to compete, its that simple.

If you have the performance people will buy your cards, if you dont they wont.

If they can make money on Pro cards thats great, but dont expect gamers to take you seriously if the best you have is Vega which is a year and a half late to the party and not even a upgrade over pascal.

 

[Yotsugi]

They were able to sustain 30-35%+ market share.

With better and/or cheaper cards?
That's not how "competition" meme works.

 

[krumme]

Vega is too ahead of its time.

I thought of it more like late. More software driven like Maxwell with some nice cool features tacked on. Just the software support is not there yet. Like at all. We have a Maxwell working as a fiji at high freq. Thats kind of weird stuff imo.

 

[Yotsugi]

More software driven like Maxwell

?

 

[krumme]

With better and/or cheaper cards?
That's not how "competition" meme works.

I perfectly agree.
But thats also shows that it doeant matter if Vega is beeing 20% faster in a driver update this december. So a bit faster than 1080ti in new aaa games or bf1 and rx56 faster than 1080. Wouldnt move much % share anyway.
Nv brand is just darn excellent. Better work than apple nike whatever. Thats besides solid engineering development.
Now gf is probably production limited anyway and hbm is expensive so from a business perspective for amd it really doesnt really move. It just sucks for us enthusiast. Our only hope is this ngg is baked into the ryzen apu and comming consoles. They have to make it work then.

 

[Det0x]

People will generally buy the best bang for the buck if they at least do any research into the subject, ive owned just as many radeon cards as Nvidia, even a few 3dfx cards while they were around, i dont discriminate ill buy whatever is best bang for buck.

Some people are fanboys and then they will buy whatever their brand puts out, you cant really so much about these buyers so they really arnt worth considering, you need to focus on the other buyers who buy based on reviews/facts/performance, but to do this you need to offer the performance. This is where AMD went wrong with vega, releasing a product a year and a half after the competition that doesnt even match it let alone beat it was a horrible idea any way you try and spin it, and the non-fanboy buyers didnt miss this fact, thats why its not selling well. Had they released a card better than a 1080Ti it would be selling like hotcakes assuming it wasnt priced to the moon.

I can attest to this as i were ready to buy top-SKU VEGA as soon as it got released, if it had lived up to the expectrations. (~1080ti)

Now i'am waiting for GV102 to get released, eventho i really dislike Nvidia and their shady business practices.

If you're new to the hardware scene i can recommend you took take a look at this video, for a little background story about how Nvidia operate, and reasons for my dislike towards them. And the video only show a small fraction of what they have done over the years. (my first self bought gfx card was a geforce 2mx)

Sadly I feel like i have no other option then GV102, if i want a new high-end graphic card.. 2080 non ti is out of the question as i refuse to pay highend price for a midrange diesize (GV104)

 

[krumme]

?

I think of the pipeline as more software driven and controlled.
But that also moves the complexity to the driver and developers.
Aparently its a monumental task to do.
I havnt seen anything similar ever for a gpu or cpu. The basic new technology is not enabled. I still wonder if its broken. But perhaps zlatan can give us an update?

 

[Excessi0n]

I don't remember people caring about it buying Thermi or Hawaii cards.
No one cares as long as price/performance is decent.

Fancy new features are sitting disabled eagerly waiting their time.

The GTX 480 received a lot of flak for heat and power use, but it still took the performance crown (before being replaced for that exact reason just six months later). The R9 290/290x had very similar performance and power use to Nvidia's best.

Vega, in its highest-performance liquid-cooled configuration, just barely manages to beat their competitor's third-best card. With a die nearly twice the size drawing twice the power while using the highest performance memory available.

For the Vega launch to not be a failure, it would have had to be competitive with Nvidia's best at a minimum. Maybe driver updates will get the performance up there in the future, but it's been long enough that I suspect the new geometry section and tiled rendering are broken in some way.

 

[Yotsugi]

I think of the pipeline as more software driven and controlled.
But that also moves the complexity to the driver and developers.
Aparently its a monumental task to do.
I havnt seen anything similar ever for a gpu or cpu. The basic new technology is not enabled. I still wonder if its broken. But perhaps zlatan can give us an update?

I know that. Maxwell was not that, it was more granularity, tiling and better DCC.

The GTX 480 received a lot of flak for heat and power use, but it still took the performance crown

5970 raped it silly.

but it's been long enough that I suspect the new geometry section and tiled rendering are broken in some way.

Fetch once already works, shade once and NGG are missing.
Besides, they've already presented some data related to NGG in the whitepaper.
It works!
Well, sorta.

 

[Jackie60]

I’ve always bought AMD cards if the performance is there, I don’t even worry too much about performance per watt. For two generations AMD have underperformed and just like in the 2900XT and 3870 days they’re currently churning out crap cards that don’t perform anything like their price would suggest. Vega 56 is OK but late and all the supposed architectural improvements have delivered zero compared to Nvidia. I’ve bought loads of AMD cards but I’m not going to subsidise idiots ever again if the raw performance isn’t there at launch. I can cope with 10% lower FPS if the price is lower but 2 generations of 10-20% less performance at the same price will not cut it. 4870/4800 pro were great. X800/850XT were very good, 5970,6990, 290 all delivered the FPS even if loud and hot. I’ll buy AMD again when they do as well as NVIDIA at the same price or nearly as well but cheaper.

 

[Jackie60]

They haven’t launched Vega 64 properly yet so Navi won’t be ‘ready’ until 2020 at their current rate of progress. Ideally NAVI will be capable of competing out of the box rather than waiting for some fairy Godmother development team to tease performance out of some labyrinthine architecture designed for an AI driver team.
I’ve always hated NVIDIA since I experienced the evil swine cheating in texture/quality settings in BF1942 or thereabouts BUT AMD have shown just what not to do in the GPU space recently.
I’m certainly not going to get excited about Navi, ‘poor Volta’ and similar ludicrous statements leave a very bad taste in the mouth.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

5970 raped it silly.

Two GPUs against one?

The fact that people use term "Thermi" seems to be proof that power efficiency does matter, as having poor efficiency was considered Fermi's defining trait. As for Hawaii, its performance per watt was on par with Kepler, but it certainly wasn't spared any criticism based on how hot and loud the reference cards were.

 

[Rifter]

I can attest to this as i were ready to buy top-SKU VEGA as soon as it got released, if it had lived up to the expectrations. (~1080ti)

Now i'am waiting for GV102 to get released, eventho i really dislike Nvidia and their shady business practices.

If you're new to the hardware scene i can recommend you took take a look at this video, for a little background story about how Nvidia operate, and reasons for my dislike towards them. And the video only show a small fraction of what they have done over the years. (my first self bought gfx card was a geforce 2mx)

Sadly I feel like i have no other option then GV102, if i want a new high-end graphic card.. 2080 non ti is out of the question as i refuse to pay highend price for a midrange diesize (GV104)

I couldnt agree more, and am waiting out volta now. I know Nvidia is by far the more dishonest of the two GPU manufacturers with the stunts they have pulled over the years. But they are also the only ones offering the performance on the high end. So i will still buy their products.

 

[Rifter]

5970 raped it silly.

The 5970 is not a single GPU. The 480 was the best performing single GPU of its time hands down.