Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

[uzzi38]

I can finally make this thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519669375283957760

Phoenix is indeed RDNA3. My advice to everyone: treat the old APU rumours as being out of date.

 

[AdamK47]

As usual, you make nonsensical, irrelevant arguments.

You certainly are a prickly one.

Meditation helps. Breathing exercises and all that.

Keeping away from online forums helps. Consume less negative.

 

[A///]

no need to wield handbags gents. try and be civil.

 

[moinmoin]

The threads certainly become more fun if you visualize all participants in fights wielding handbags.

 

[eek2121]

AMD needs to work harder on it's partnerships. It's become clear that they are having problems at every level. That is likely why we don't see wider availability and more variety.

Even partnerships with motherboard vendors appear to be 'adversarial' according to Steve at Gamers Nexus.

Looks like even Orange PI is planning on a AMD handheld...

The market will soon be flooded with them, they'll all become failures because the market is so saturated.

I'll stick with my Steam Deck.

I do hope Valve decides to update the deck, however. If they can decrease power consumption and give us a better screen that would be a win. Maybe they should ask AMD to port Van Gogh to 4nm. 🤣

 

[Shivansps]

AMD needs to work harder on it's partnerships. It's become clear that they are having problems at every level. That is likely why we don't see wider availability and more variety.

Even partnerships with motherboard vendors appear to be 'adversarial' according to Steve at Gamers Nexus.

The market will soon be flooded with them, they'll all become failures because the market is so saturated.

I'll stick with my Steam Deck.

I do hope Valve decides to update the deck, however. If they can decrease power consumption and give us a better screen that would be a win. Maybe they should ask AMD to port Van Gogh to 4nm. 🤣

Saturated market = low prices... im not going to complain about that.

If this means we are going to be able to get cheap ARM, Intel and AMD handhelds that are petty much full pcs you can use in any way you want, i certanly like it.

(and this is when you realise how badly Intel screwed up by not having dual channel on ADL-N), this is the same mistake AMD did with Bobcat and and old small cores.

 

[insertcarehere]

12% is barely any gain in your pseudo book..?.

We ll know more soon since NBC said they ll provide an in depth analysis of a 7940.

If the 7900XTX turned out to be only 12% faster than the fastest RDNA2 GPU it'd get roasted to kingdom come by every reviewer and forum, and yet the same here is fine?

 

[leoneazzurro]

BTW nobody cared but it seems AMD announced their Phoenix "U" line.

AMD annuncia i Ryzen 7040U per notebook ultrasottili senza compromessi

Core basati su architettura Zen 4 e grafica RDNA 3 per l'incarnazione della APU Phoenix destinata ai portatili ultrasottili dove, alle buone prestazioni, deve essere abbinata un'elevata autonomia. I modelli della serie Ryzen 7040U sono quattro, con il Ryzen 7 7840U a rappresentare il top con 8...

www.hwupgrade.it

AMD Details Ryzen 7040U Mobile Processors

The first Ryzen chips with XDNA.

www.tomshardware.com

I don't know why literally no one else is reporting about it, but there they are .
UPDATE: it seems the news is fairly new, so also Anandtech now reports on it.

 

[jpiniero]

Interesting, the 7540U also does not include the AI engine. You do still get the full 16 MB of L3 and 6 MB of L2.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

TDP is now 15-30W instead of 15-28W.

If someone wants the U-version, then fastest would be buying Asus ROG Ally.

 

[SteinFG]

So looking at CPU pages, here's all differences between PHX1 and PHX2 (as it seems)

	Phoenix 1 (Used for 7840U/7640U)	Phoenix 2 (Used for 7540U/7440U)
CPU Cores	8 cores	6 cores
PCIe 4.0 lanes	20 lanes	14 lanes
AI engine	Present	Not present
GPU CUs	12 CUs	4 CUs
Die size	178 mm	137 mm
Sockets	FP7, FP8	FP7

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

So looking at CPU pages, here's all differences between PHX1 and PHX2 (as it seems)

	Phoenix 1 Used for 7840U/7640U)	Phoenix 2 (Used for 7540U/7440U)
CPU Cores	8 cores	6 cores
PCIe 4.0 lanes	20 lanes	14 lanes
AI engine	Present	Not present
GPU CUs	12 CUs	4 CUs
Die size	178 mm	137 mm
Sockets	FP7, FP8	FP7

Where did you find those Die sizes?

 

[Abwx]

Yet another hand held device that come with a Zen 4 option...

Orange Pi gaming handheld revealed with up to AMD Ryzen 7 7840U and 16 GB of RAM

It seems that the makers of Orange Pi SBCs want a slice of the gaming handheld market. Reputedly launching in the autumn, the Orange Pi gaming handheld will feature a 7-inch display, a familiar design and a choice of AMD Ryzen or Rockchip chipsets.

www.notebookcheck.net

Also it seems that AMD is positioning PHX not only against Intel but also Apple :

AMD Ryzen 7040U series of laptop processors now official with a Radeon 780M iGPU

AMD has unveiled four new laptop processors, the Ryzen 7 7840U, Ryzen 5 7640U, Ryzen 5 7540U and Ryzen 3 7440U. All four SKUs have a TDP of 15-30 Watts and come with a new RDNA3-based iGPU.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[SteinFG]

Where did you find those Die sizes?

https://www.amd.com/en/product/13216

https://www.amd.com/en/product/13186

Listed right here on amd's product pages

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Truly Incredible game performance -> 1080p Low Image quality.

Why they didn't test It in medium quality is beyond me. It's not like they provide actual FPS in those graphs.

https://www.amd.com/en/product/13216

https://www.amd.com/en/product/13186

Listed right here on amd's product pages

Thanks.
They could have added more CU, 1CU -> 2mm2 or less, but of course BW would be an even bigger problem.
I think 8CU + 16MB IC would fit in 22mm2 -> 178 + 22 = 200mm2

 

[jpiniero]

https://www.amd.com/en/product/13216

https://www.amd.com/en/product/13186

Listed right here on amd's product pages

The 7540U is the bigger die although that could be a typo.

 

[SteinFG]

The 7540U is the bigger die although that could be a typo.

7540U probably uses both dies, that's why

 

[jpiniero]

7540U probably uses both dies, that's why

Could they really chop off 40 mm2 with cutting just 2 cores and slashing the IGP?

It doesn't seem like it's using Zen 4c.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Could they really chop off 40 mm2 with cutting just 2 cores and slashing the IGP?

It doesn't seem like it's using Zen 4c.

That AI chip is also missing.

 

[jpiniero]

That AI chip is also missing.

I was going to mention that but kind of assumed it wouldn't be that big. I'm intrigued to what AMD could do with it but also skeptical they can actually harness it well.

If AMD does charge 25% less for the 7540U versus the 7640U, to OEMs it'd be a no brainer to go with the smaller one and not bother with Big Phoenix.

 

[mikk]

BTW nobody cared but it seems AMD announced their Phoenix "U" line.

AMD annuncia i Ryzen 7040U per notebook ultrasottili senza compromessi

Core basati su architettura Zen 4 e grafica RDNA 3 per l'incarnazione della APU Phoenix destinata ai portatili ultrasottili dove, alle buone prestazioni, deve essere abbinata un'elevata autonomia. I modelli della serie Ryzen 7040U sono quattro, con il Ryzen 7 7840U a rappresentare il top con 8...

www.hwupgrade.it

AMD Details Ryzen 7040U Mobile Processors

The first Ryzen chips with XDNA.

www.tomshardware.com

I don't know why literally no one else is reporting about it, but there they are .
UPDATE: it seems the news is fairly new, so also Anandtech now reports on it.

Because it's only an announcement and another paper work from AMDs mobile lineup. AMD is so slow getting Phoenix out, looks like Phoenix laptops have to wait another few months.

 

[Exist50]

Could they really chop off 40 mm2 with cutting just 2 cores and slashing the IGP?

It doesn't seem like it's using Zen 4c.

It seems to me that AMD's die size listing is wrong (wouldn't be the first time they mess up a spec on that page), and these are all versions of the same 8c Phoenix die with various disables.

 

[Abwx]

Because it's only an announcement and another paper work from AMDs mobile lineup. AMD is so slow getting Phoenix out, looks like Phoenix laptops have to wait another few months.

A few weeks is not a few months, first available will be the HS version :

We did start to ramp production of those Ryzen 7040 Series [chips]. Our OEM partners have started shipping those systems. Largely, the 7040HS systems. So those should hit etail and retail over the next several weeks. We started shipping last quarter, and those systems should be available in the next several weeks.
AMD Representative

AMD Confirms Ryzen 7040 Phoenix CPU Delay, First Laptops Expected In Next Several Weeks

AMD has confirmed the delay of its Ryzen 7040 Phoenix CPU and the respective laptops and will now be hitting retail in the next several weeks.

wccftech.com

And some early announcements from Asus for pricings, all laptops use a dGPU :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653851352278392833

And a very original design, that s how laptops should be designed; with a iGPU only option and upgradable all the way :

Framework's Modular Laptop 13 Design Gets AMD Phoenix Treatment, Features Ryzen 7040U APUs & Starts At $849

Framework has announced that its upcoming Laptop 13 designs will be featuring AMD's recently announced Ryzen 7040U Phoenix APUs.

wccftech.com

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

At Notebookcheck.net they looked at Ryzen 9 7940HS.

Idle doesn't look better than the predecessor.


P.S. They will also look at the IGP 780M in a separate article.

 

[tamz_msc]

First proper comparison video of the 780M is out. Vs RTX 3050 (35 W). The laptop model used is the Asus TUF A15 with 7940HS at max power.

TL;DW: Performance is close in CPU-limited scenarios (eg. Forza Horizon 5). In GPU limited scenarios however, RTX 3050 35W is sometimes over 50% faster (eg. RDR 2).

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

First proper comparison video of the 780M is out. Vs RTX 3050 (35 W). The laptop model used is the Asus TUF A15 with 7940HS at max power.

TL;DW: Performance is close in CPU-limited scenarios (eg. Forza Horizon 5). In GPU limited scenarios however, RTX 3050 35W is sometimes over 50% faster (eg. RDR 2).

Here are the actual FPS from that video.

Average FPS	Assassins Creed Valhalla	Control	Cyberpunk	The Division 2	Far Cry 5	Forza Horizon 5	Metro Exodus	RDR 2	Rainbow Six Siege	Shadow of Tomb Raider	Watchdogs Legion
Radeon 780M	42 FPS	28 FPS	28 FPS	41 FPS	38 FPS	54 FPS	24 FPS	24 FPS	121 FPS	36 FPS	41 FPS
RTX 3050	54FPS (+28%)	39 FPS (49%)	32 FPS (+14%)	49 FPS (+20%)	62 FPS (+38%)	58 FPS (+7%)	35 FPS (+45%)	40 FPS (+66%)	151 FPS (+25%)	56 FPS (+55%)	56 FPS (+37%)

Radeon 780M is actually doing pretty good for an IGP. RTX 3050 managed >40% more FPS only in 4 games from 11.
Let's not forget that even through 780M was maxed out power wise, but It used only 4800MHz DDR5. 6400MHz offers 33% higher BW, so It should provide some FPS boost.

P.S.
Strix Point could go up to even 24CU without any IC cache. Paired with LPDDR5T 9.6gbps you would end up with 100% higher BW, that should be enough considering 2.7GHz turbo would be too high, 2.4GHz look a lot more reasonable with this much CU. You would end up with ~70-80% higher FPS in GPU limited games. Of course the problem is cost, that memory wouldn't be cheap, that's for sure.