Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

[uzzi38]

I can finally make this thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519669375283957760

Phoenix is indeed RDNA3. My advice to everyone: treat the old APU rumours as being out of date.

 

[jpiniero]

Looks like it's same full 16MB L3 sharing among 6 Zen4 cores in Z1 as Z1E does. Very different from older speculation(2MB*6). Is Z1 just a cut down version of Z1E? Especially they have same CPUID.

If the Z1 isn't PHX2, it's cut so that it could be swapped in later (?)

 

[Abwx]

AMD gets official about Phoenix for handhelds:

AMD announces Ryzen Z1 Zen4 APUs for handheld gaming consoles with up to 12 RDNA3 GPU cores - VideoCardz.com

AMD Introduces Ryzen™ Z1 Series Processors, Expanding the “Zen 4” Lineup into Handheld Game Consoles AMD Ryzen Z1 and AMD Ryzen Z1 Extreme processors bring ultimate portability and battery life to handheld PC gaming consoles SANTA CLARA, Calif., April 25, 2023 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) — Today, AMD...

videocardz.com

Too bad they reduced the GPU so much on the basic one. Hope eventual 6-core DIY chips get bigger GPU than that.

There s this slide to add if it wasnt already posted :

Asus ROG Ally: Handheld mit AMD Ryzen Z1 als Valve-Steam-Deck-Konkurrent

Asus kündigt den Handheld-PC ROG Ally mit AMD Zen 4 und RDNA 3 an – Konkurrenz für Valves Steam Deck. Der Preis bleibt vorerst offen.

www.computerbase.de

Edit : They should had upgraded the lower part to 6 CUs.

 

[Heartbreaker]

This doesn't seem "custom" like the Deck SOC.
Wish they had made something more customized for this segment.
IMO 8 Core is too much. Remove 2 cores to make the chip smaller and cheaper and add those customization to the memory channel to make the GPU faster.

At least will it come with some Xilinx IP?

Minimum complex for Zen 3, is 8, making a new arrangement just to limit handhelds to 6 would be a massive waste of resources. These are just standard Phoenix tapeouts. No additional up front costs.

 

[jpiniero]

Edit : They should had upgraded the lower part to 6 CUs.

PHX2 only has 4 CUs.

 

[Exist50]

If the Z1 isn't PHX2, it's cut so that it could be swapped in later (?)

Wouldn't work with the Zen 4 vs 4c core difference.

 

[moinmoin]

Such a nonsensical name.

This doesn't seem "custom" like the Deck SOC.

Different firmware could well include some of the Van Gogh optimizations CnC wrote about.

There s this slide to add if it wasnt already posted :

Asus ROG Ally: Handheld mit AMD Ryzen Z1 als Valve-Steam-Deck-Konkurrent

Asus kündigt den Handheld-PC ROG Ally mit AMD Zen 4 und RDNA 3 an – Konkurrenz für Valves Steam Deck. Der Preis bleibt vorerst offen.

www.computerbase.de

Edit : They should had upgraded the lower part to 6 CUs.

That slide actually supports the argument that Z1E has too many CUs, not Z1 too few. Surprising little FPS difference between the two for a massive 3 times more CUs.

 

[Anhiel]

Looks like the Ryzen Z1 Extreme is a rebranded Ryzen 9 7940HS Phoenix at least the shown iGPU performance metric is exactly the same as the prediction I've posted a while ago. So the iGPU clockspeed must be the same.

But since this is for handheld the CPU clockspeed must be lower to improve battery endurance. I'm guessing it's ~4.75GHz 15-28W range. More importantly, pricing is key for these product's success. With more utilization of the same CPU we might see better pricing overall.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

That slide actually supports the argument that Z1E has too many CUs, not Z1 too few. Surprising little FPS difference between the two for a massive 3 times more CUs.

That slide is based on Full HD and low settings. High settings would be more interesting for a comparison or at least medium.

 

[Panino Manino]

Different firmware could well include some of the Van Gogh optimizations CnC wrote about.

I think the customizations that make the Deck SOC punch above its height are in hardware.

Minimum complex for Zen 3, is 8, making a new arrangement just to limit handhelds to 6 would be a massive waste of resources. These are just standard Phoenix tapeouts. No additional up front costs.

True, but in this case I say that they could had used Zen 4c cores.
Don't you think 4c cores would be "perfect" for these little devices? Reduce as much CPU space as possible to make space for IF cache, because going by AMD's own graphics that Z1E is obviously bottlenecked by memory, it's a waste.

Ok, who I I'm to argue agaisnt AMD?
But the general feeling of disappointing for not saying AMD actually doing what it's capable and wasting oportunities will not change.

 

[jpiniero]

Wouldn't work with the Zen 4 vs 4c core difference.

True but I don't think that would stop Asus/whatever from dropping it in when possible.

AMD has said that the core differences aren't that different, especially if the Z1's Zen 4 core caches are cut to match 4c. This isn't like Intel where the core is completely different.

 

[Schmide]

usb4 finally a super small form with dockability, gigitty

 

[Schmide]

True, but in this case I say that they could had used Zen 4c cores.
Don't you think 4c cores would be "perfect" for these little devices? Reduce as much CPU space as possible to make space for IF cache, because going by AMD's own graphics that Z1E is obviously bottlenecked by memory, it's a waste.

Ok, who I I'm to argue agaisnt AMD?
But the general feeling of disappointing for not saying AMD actually doing what it's capable and wasting oportunities will not change.

4c cores are area optimized. I don't think the core area budget is much of a factor on these SOCs. Most of the time they down clock the cores to give more power to the GPU anyways and the extra cache of the full core does way more for gaming. (vs compute the 4c arena)

https://chipsandcheese.com/2023/03/05/van-gogh-amds-steam-deck-apu/

Has a good analysis of limiting factors in this form factor.

 

[Abwx]

That slide actually supports the argument that Z1E has too many CUs, not Z1 too few. Surprising little FPS difference between the two for a massive 3 times more CUs.

That s game dependent, there s some where it s 50-90% better perfs for the Z1E.

 

[NTMBK]

Such a nonsensical name.

I mean, they're all nonsensical names. All the way back to "Pentium" and "Athlon", or even "8088".

 

[NTMBK]

True, but in this case I say that they could had used Zen 4c cores.
Don't you think 4c cores would be "perfect" for these little devices? Reduce as much CPU space as possible to make space for IF cache, because going by AMD's own graphics that Z1E is obviously bottlenecked by memory, it's a waste.

Ok, who I I'm to argue agaisnt AMD?
But the general feeling of disappointing for not saying AMD actually doing what it's capable and wasting oportunities will not change.

I presume that 4C would limit the peak turbo clock of the core quite dramatically. Even though they won't hit that turbo for long, you want short bursts of maximum single threaded CPU performance to deal with game code bottlenecks. These chips will have wildly fluctuating clocks to make the most of the power budget.

 

[moinmoin]

I mean, they're all nonsensical names. All the way back to "Pentium" and "Athlon", or even "8088".

Sure. But nowadays manufactures usually try to be a little more systematic with model names. With Ryzen Z1 the fun starts a couple of years later when nobody remembers that obscure chip only used in handheld PCs but everybody thinks of Zen 1 when seeing Z1. Even better if AMD should continue the series with Z2, Z3 etc. Are they mocking Apple there?

 

[Exist50]

Sure. But nowadays manufactures usually try to be a little more systematic with model names. With Ryzen Z1 the fun starts a couple of years later when nobody remembers that obscure chip only used in handheld PCs but everybody thinks of Zen 1 when seeing Z1. Even better if AMD should continue the series with Z2, Z3 etc. Are they mocking Apple there?

Also, didn't they literally just introduce a new mobile naming scheme?

 

[moinmoin]

Also, didn't they literally just introduce a new mobile naming scheme?

You mean the one I like but everybody else keeps complaining about? So it's you lots' fault we got this Z1EEE!

 

[Kaluan]

Sure. But nowadays manufactures usually try to be a little more systematic with model names. With Ryzen Z1 the fun starts a couple of years later when nobody remembers that obscure chip only used in handheld PCs but everybody thinks of Zen 1 when seeing Z1. Even better if AMD should continue the series with Z2, Z3 etc. Are they mocking Apple there?

Z2 Max/Ultra = AMD Sarlak/Strix Halo?

 

[nicalandia]

So are these Z1 SKUS 4nm and Lacking L3$ all together?..







Here is Bergamo for example.

 

[nicalandia]

Double post

 

[Tigerick]

Z1 performance is pretty similar to SD, we all know DI design of Phoenix is almost non-existence, so by right Z1 is having 1.4 TF which is below SD's 1.6 TF. Of course, RDNA3 FSR3 will help the framerate...

 

[Tigerick]

So are these Z1 SKUS 4nm and Lacking L3$ all together?..

View attachment 79979


View attachment 79980


Here is Bergamo for example.
View attachment 79981

This is rumored Phoenix+, a refresh Phoenix Point with updated RDNA3+ graphics engine. The rest of specs should be similar with PP. So it is not Z1 SKU

 

[uzzi38]

This is rumored Phoenix+, a refresh Phoenix Point with updated RDNA3+ graphics engine. The rest of specs should be similar with PP. So it is not Z1 SKU

Idk if Hawk Point is actually RDNA3+ or if it's just a renamed Phoenix, but in either case it should not be available yet. This is just PHX, the software there is just reporting PHX as both PHX/Hawk Point.

 

[RTX2080]

BTW All The Watts!! updated Phoenix SKUs. According to him It should look like this:

Ryzen 9 7940HS 8c 12 CU.
Ryzen 7 7840HS 8c 12 CU.
Ryzen 5 7640HS 6c 6 CU.

Ryzen 7 7840U 8c 12 CU
Ryzen 5 7640U 6c 6 CU

PHX2.
Ryzen 7 7740U 6c 4 CU.
Ryzen 5 7540U 6c 4 CU.
Ryzen 3 7340U 4c 2 CU.

Time to bring this up, Sisoftware leak the 7540U spec, which has also full 16M L3 cache and 6 cores:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1651092245565829121

Details for Component AMD Ryzen 5 7540U w/ Radeon 740M Graphics

ranker.sisoftware.co.uk

It is clear that all Phoenix include 'PHX2' share same die, they are either full 8Core & 16M L3, or cut down/lesser cores&CUs version of it while still has full 16M L3. What else should be different is the clock.