AMD Polaris 10 Samples work at 1.27 GHz

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C@mM!

Member
Mar 30, 2016
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it took a hit? if you are comparing 1080 to 980 ti you have to consider things like 256vs384bit, 2vs3MB l2, 64vs96 ROPs and so on, not just the amount of CUDA cores...

the super high clocks from Pascal are looking like big trouble for AMD if they are stuck at 1.3GHz,

also Maxwell was already a significant upgrade from Kepler, while GCN 1.0 to 1.2 less so,

The high clocking on Pascal really looks like a we couldn't hit our performance targets, so crank the clockspeed. And the cards are stock clocked close to what they can handle, since boost clocks sorta suck once thermal saturation sets in. Time will tell if water\aftermarket coolers will solve that one though.

As for AMD's side, it keeps being pushed around that the cards are being aimed at mainstream, and thus acceptable performance at a low price point (read, lower power requirements so OEM's can skimp on cooling+power, and cards can be made cheaper) seems to be the gig they are pushing, so I'm loathe to try and compare Polaris 10 to Medium Pascal. However, I can't see anything stopping Polaris 10 cards clockling like Pascal cards and AIB partners from releasing Polaris 10 cards with higher power delivery, with the limiting factor likely to be since the die is smaller, it'll be harder to disperse heat compared to a 1070.

As for GCN upgrades compared to Maxwell\Pascal, I just don't think its quite comparable from a generational leap, as we know the root problem is Maxwell\Pascal is that they need to switch between graphics and compute loads (okay when your being fed DX11\OpenGL serial workloads), whilst AMD can execute both in parallel (which is great for DX12\Vulkan, and the whole reason that AMD gifted Vulkan to Khronos and that Microsoft scrambled to implement DX12, and which left Pascal as an reactionary architecture by Nvidia). The only thing huge IMO is predication of loads, reducing the switching overhead, and helps to minimise AMD's advantage in parallel workloads.
 

IllogicalGlory

Senior member
Mar 8, 2013
934
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it took a hit? if you are comparing 1080 to 980 ti you have to consider things like 256vs384bit, 2vs3MB l2, 64vs96 ROPs and so on, not just the amount of CUDA cores...

the super high clocks from Pascal are looking like big trouble for AMD if they are stuck at 1.3GHz,

also Maxwell was already a significant upgrade from Kepler, while GCN 1.0 to 1.2 less so,
You could also compare it to the 980.

At 4K...

The 1080 scores 2560 * 1783 = 4,564,480 at 100% performance
The 980 scores 2048 * 1209 = 2,476,023 at 59% performance

Expected increase (equal IPC) is 1.84x
Actual increase is 1.7x

So the actual increase is 92.3% of what was expected, or, equivalently Maxwell has 8.2% higher IPC than Pascal, and that's GDDR5X vs GDDR5 too.

AMD's clocks are lower (though higher than Maxwell, apparently), but if their IPC is Maxwell like, hopefully higher than Maxwell, and they have a greater number of SP/mm^2, which they seem to (232mm^2 Polaris 10 has 2560 SPs, same as GP104), they can easily be competitive, perhaps even win, once the stuff comes out.

340mm^2 Vega at 3500+ cores/1.3GHz sounds like a worthy competitor to the 1080.

Slow and wide vs fast and thin, I guess. NV seems to have won that battle with Maxwell (although Maxwell had higher IPC), for AMD's sake, let's hope Polaris well utilized.
 
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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
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(1) My interpretation is that he is repeating that Vega will be the new family after Polaris and will be 2017. Of course, if AMD's is now planning to pull Vega forward to 2016 (eg., the October 2016 rumor), he wouldn't disclose such and would stick with current "2017."

It was my understanding that Vega would be 2017, and the second half of 400-series, which is why I still believe. Those rumors of 2016 just changed the date it was available.

Someone here also said that during a meeting (stock holders?) they said Vega was 2017, so this would sort of confirm that.

(2) It's an incorrect transcription. "Buy" should be "by" such that the proper quote is "then you follow it on by a new family in terms of the ultra...." She (Ruth Cotter of AMD) should have used "with" instead of "by." The statement is really just a repeat of what he said a few times about the cadence of Polaris to Vega (see earlier quotes in the post).

Ahhhh, that makes more sense. So it seems the original plan is still set in motion.

Going to be a long winter without Vega, but if NV doesn't have anything to compete in the mainstream they might be fine.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,393
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Someone here also said that during a meeting (stock holders?) they said Vega was 2017, so this would sort of confirm that.
If we are talking about the same thing, that someone referenced the Product Roadmap from the AMD Investor Relations page. It puts Vega in 2017 (slide 3) but do note that the slide is marked March 2016, prior to the rumor.

Also, if we are to take that roadmap presentation as reference, slide 5 puts HBM2 memory in AMD products in 2016 (slide dated January 2016).

The Vega in 2016 rumor still needs more sources to gain credibility, but the "updated" AMD product roadmap does little to confirm or deny it.
 

nenforcer

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2008
1,767
1
76
Going to be a long winter without Vega, but if NV doesn't have anything to compete in the mainstream they might be fine.

The GTX 1060 just rolled off of the Zauba Import / Export list so I would expect it before the end of the year. No way nVidia just wants to cede the entry / mainstream market to AMD - not when they will have the high end covered until at least October at the earliest.
 

C@mM!

Member
Mar 30, 2016
54
0
36
The GTX 1060 just rolled off of the Zauba Import / Export list so I would expect it before the end of the year. No way nVidia just wants to cede the entry / mainstream market to AMD - not when they will have the high end covered until at least October at the earliest.

The bigger issue will be is I don't think Nvidia can compete against Polaris in Polaris space.

12% extra die space means more dies per wafer, and lower power requirements. That means cheaper VRMs, PCB's, etc. And thats ignoring the fact that Polaris is a ground up design, where as we haven't heard anything along those lines from Nvidia.

Only chance Nvidia will have is the halo card effect, of going Nvidia is fastest, so I'll buy the fastest card I can afford.
 

selni

Senior member
Oct 24, 2013
249
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You could also compare it to the 980.

At 4K...

The 1080 scores 2560 * 1783 = 4,564,480 at 100% performance
The 980 scores 2048 * 1209 = 2,476,023 at 59% performance

Expected increase (equal IPC) is 1.84x
Actual increase is 1.7x

So the actual increase is 92.3% of what was expected, or, equivalently Maxwell has 8.2% higher IPC than Pascal, and that's GDDR5X vs GDDR5 too.

AMD's clocks are lower (though higher than Maxwell, apparently), but if their IPC is Maxwell like, hopefully higher than Maxwell, and they have a greater number of SP/mm^2, which they seem to (232mm^2 Polaris 10 has 2560 SPs, same as GP104), they can easily be competitive, perhaps even win, once the stuff comes out.

340mm^2 Vega at 3500+ cores/1.3GHz sounds like a worthy competitor to the 1080.

Slow and wide vs fast and thin, I guess. NV seems to have won that battle with Maxwell (although Maxwell had higher IPC), for AMD's sake, let's hope Polaris well utilized.

Still not a sensible IPC comparison. It's quite possibly just more memory bottlenecked relative to the 980 - afterall did memory bandwidth go up by 84%? Downclocking a 1070/1080 to something resembling a 980 is about as close as you're going to get to a reasonable comparison here, but even that's problematic.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Yep. Only way to somehow get a view of IPC is to use same clocks and make sure memory for example have as little influence as possible.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
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It really all comes down to the poor terminology. IPC has a specific meaning, which is not what everyone seems to think it means.

What is actually getting calculated in this thread is FPS/Score per shader unit equalized for clock. Not as catchy but a lot more accurate because it doesn't purport to know all the variables. It just melds them all to a final figure.
 
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sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
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The bigger issue will be is I don't think Nvidia can compete against Polaris in Polaris space.

Sure they can. Nvidia can and will sell more GTX 1060 than whatever product AMD slots in against it at that price bracket, solely due to brand recognition. Even if AMD offers 20% more performance, the GTX1060 will sell more. It is only beyond a 20% performance deficit will Nvidia will start to worry about potential loss of sales to their competitor. I predict it will take a 30% performance deficit at the same price in order for the GTX1060 to actually be outsold. A major economic recession might reduce that number to 15%. And dont forget, there is still a possibility that the 1060 actually beats Polaris to market. It is remote, but given the state of AMD, one cannot ignore the possibility.
 

Slaughterem

Member
Mar 21, 2016
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Still not a sensible IPC comparison. It's quite possibly just more memory bottlenecked relative to the 980 - afterall did memory bandwidth go up by 84%? Downclocking a 1070/1080 to something resembling a 980 is about as close as you're going to get to a reasonable comparison here, but even that's problematic.
If you want something more sensible maybe look at this information.
http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/45056646-clarence-spurr/4884330-pascal-new-king
Above we have the exact same chart ran for the exact same games, but this time we have Nvidia's 980Ti, a Maxwell card to compare against. As you can see the GTX 980TI is between 20%-23% more efficient than a GTX 1080 in required clock cycles per a frame at stock base clocks. The 980Ti does lose it's efficiency quicker than a GTX1080 when overclocking, but it still retains a 14%-16% lead in overclocking efficiency.

Now we if we take a look the Maxwell based Titan X we see around the same performance. The only difference is it's roughly 4% more efficient than a 980TI across the board while efficiency degrading for overclocks are more linear across the different resolutions.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
The GTX 1060 just rolled off of the Zauba Import / Export list so I would expect it before the end of the year. No way nVidia just wants to cede the entry / mainstream market to AMD - not when they will have the high end covered until at least October at the earliest.

Will be interesting to see what NV puts up against Polaris. More so, if NV gets it to market in time.

Oh well, not my buying bracket but I enjoy me some good GPU bench-offs.
 

.vodka

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2014
1,203
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You might want to edit your post. I posted that link yesterday and they closed and then deleted the whole post.

Which is valid information that points to Paxwell being a thing. GP100 seems to be the only actual departure over Maxwell so far, with a different SM resource layout, etc. Not that much different of a situation as GF1x0 and GF1x4 were back in their time. To be fair it seems to work for nV, Maxwell (and evidence pointing to its 16nm shrink with a few added features, Pascal) scales with insane clockspeeds for a GPU and has the performance to back that up in spite of losing performance per core in the transition to the newer node. If that strategy holds in time when refined GCN products hit the market in the form of Polaris and Vega, we'll see. Given what has happened so far to Kepler and Maxwell, I don't have much hopes for Pascal to withstand the test of time.

Not that this is a bad thing, ATI/AMD did the same with VLIW5, 80nm->65nm->55nm->40nm in HD2000-5000 series with some tweaks here and there to add DX11 functionality and a final efficiency related refinement with VLIW4 in the 6950/70.


The thread probably got deleted because it turned into a flamefest at the third post thanks to the usual suspects, not because of the presented information.




Going back to Polaris, should they bring 390x performance down to the $200-250 price point at reasonable power consumption, I think we have a winner. Hell, a Nano version of Polaris 10 that relies on power limits could be a nice product for weak PSU rigs as an upgrade, apart from whatever P11 can do on its own.

Polaris should also overclock much better than 28nm GCN, so that's another thing going for it.
 
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Concillian

Diamond Member
May 26, 2004
3,751
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Doesn't the videocardz benchmarking pretty much demonstrate that the Polaris is indeed shaping up to be a lower cost / lower power consumption 390x?
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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Sure they can. Nvidia can and will sell more GTX 1060 than whatever product AMD slots in against it at that price bracket, solely due to brand recognition. Even if AMD offers 20% more performance, the GTX1060 will sell more. It is only beyond a 20% performance deficit will Nvidia will start to worry about potential loss of sales to their competitor. I predict it will take a 30% performance deficit at the same price in order for the GTX1060 to actually be outsold. A major economic recession might reduce that number to 15%. And dont forget, there is still a possibility that the 1060 actually beats Polaris to market. It is remote, but given the state of AMD, one cannot ignore the possibility.

What is the state of AMD you are referring to?
 

rgallant

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2007
1,361
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81
Sure they can. Nvidia can and will sell more GTX 1060 than whatever product AMD slots in against it at that price bracket, solely due to brand recognition. Even if AMD offers 20% more performance, the GTX1060 will sell more. It is only beyond a 20% performance deficit will Nvidia will start to worry about potential loss of sales to their competitor. I predict it will take a 30% performance deficit at the same price in order for the GTX1060 to actually be outsold. A major economic recession might reduce that number to 15%. And dont forget, there is still a possibility that the 1060 actually beats Polaris to market. It is remote, but given the state of AMD, one cannot ignore the possibility.
but wouldn't nv have to sell 4 cards for every amd card sold to keep the 80ish to 20ish market share ?
 

Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
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I wouldn't quite be so so sure.

Pascal took a hit to IPC compared to maxwell. Nothing saying that it won't happen to AMD as well. That being said, I do feel like AMD has been preparing their cards for this moment for quite a while, whilst as Maxwell was a reactionary architecture.

That IPC change is nothing more than the memory bandwidth per GFLOP reduction.

I benchmarked my card in UNIENGINE at different memory speeds and the card gains quite a bit of performance from additional bandwidth.

1750MHz - 336GB/s - 70FPS
1800MHZ - 345GB/s - 72FPS
1950MHZ - 374.5GB/s 74.2FPS
 

nenforcer

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2008
1,767
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Doesn't the videocardz benchmarking pretty much demonstrate that the Polaris is indeed shaping up to be a lower cost / lower power consumption 390x?

Yes, thats what it looks like. Its going to be lower cost < $300 except for maybe R9 480X, much lower power < 150W (100W less than R9 390) and slightly lower performance except for maybe R9 480X once again. Just like they said they would they are opening up the VR market to the less than $300 crowd.
 

topmounter

Member
Aug 3, 2010
194
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Doesn't the videocardz benchmarking pretty much demonstrate that the Polaris is indeed shaping up to be a lower cost / lower power consumption 390x?

I guess it depends upon your perspective. My understanding has been that P10 is meant to be a replacement at the current 370/380 pricepoint (with x-models coming in the future as yields improve?), while delivering 390x (or better?) performance... basically what AMD has said all along, bringing VR-capability to more affordable price points... rather than a replacement for the already VR-capable 390/x and Fury/X cards. The direct competitor to the 1070 and 1080 cards, e.g. 490 and Fury-next, should come in the form of Vega (11?).

I assume this means that with the launch of P10, the 370 and 380 cards will drop in price or be EOL'd, the 390/x cards will be EOL'd and the Fury/X cards will have their price lowered and/or clock boosted so their price/performance better aligns with the P10 470/480 cards and the NV 10x0 cards until Vega can launch.
 
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gamervivek

Senior member
Jan 17, 2011
490
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Doesn't the videocardz benchmarking pretty much demonstrate that the Polaris is indeed shaping up to be a lower cost / lower power consumption 390x?

It's the C7 chip which isn't confirmed as the best Polaris 10 chip. And there were substantial increases in scores(13k to 18k) from new drivers perhaps. What he was calling C4 version had same clockspeed as C7 whereas in sisoft it was around 800Mhz.

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/3dm11...3dm11/11263252/3dm11/11167887/3dm11/11167781#
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
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Doesn't the videocardz benchmarking pretty much demonstrate that the Polaris is indeed shaping up to be a lower cost / lower power consumption 390x?

which version?
amd might never had the top Polaris shown yet.
they done such before.
 

airfathaaaaa

Senior member
Feb 12, 2016
692
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81
Huh? Looks like the 18k score was achieved with two cards, the 13k with one.
you do understand that they just slapped 2 scores together and nothing more eh?
even the 3dmark score isnt to be taken seriously because we dont know anything about the card just like when they did the 1080 just slapping numbers together so that they can be right one way or another...and they managed to be way off

and still we have 3 threads running because of a single site showing numbers that doesnt have any base at all
 
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