AMD post big loss in Q1 2015 | New graphic cards coming in H2 2015

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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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Specifically referring to the screenshot of the nvidia forum.

But obviously, we should be seeing way more people with nvidia problems everywhere due to the extreme popularity of the graphics cards. I am saying, even if you seen the forums flooded with nvidia issues, it should actually be expected.

See if there is a 1% defective rate, nvidias 1% of sales is a lot higher volume than AMDs 1% of sales. Does that make sense

What you are doing is rationalizing. You are taking one number, shipped units, and using it to extrapolate a number that needs more complete analysis. This is like taking one verse out of the Bible/Koran and using it to tell people "what God thinks".

I'm also not sure what the nVidia forum would tell us relative anyway. To use another analogy, that would be like going to Chinatown and thinking the whole USA must be populated mostly by Asians. You are going to see a lot of complaints and issues reported on a manufacturers forum.

There's always room for improvement, no one is arguing that. AMD often times has an edge in price/performance, which is basically what you said using several paragraphs.
Point remains that AMD would have been better off if they can cover what their competition is doing at around the same time, not 6+ months later.

AMD might have been able to "cover" the competition 6 months ago if they used GDDR5. AMD is using some newer tech in their next Gen, HBM and Freesync for example, and that likely has a lot to do with their lateness. Would it be better for them to have released something and 6 months later have a far superior product available?
 
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2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
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What you are doing is rationalizing. You are taking one number, shipped units, and using it to extrapolate a number that needs more complete analysis. This is like taking one verse out of the Bible/Koran and using it to tell people "what God thinks".

I'm also not sure what the nVidia forum would tell us relative anyway. To use another analogy, that would be like going to Chinatown and thinking the whole USA must be populated mostly by Asians. You are going to see a lot of complaints and issues reported on a manufacturers forum.



AMD might have been able to "cover" the competition 6 months ago if they used GDDR5. AMD is using some newer tech in their next Gen, HBM and Freesync for example, and that likely has a lot to do with their lateness. Would it be better for them to have released something and 6 months later have a far superior product available?

It really doesn't matter "why" it's late. Besides the fact that it would be complete guess work to try and figure out "why" The fact of the matter is that compared to NVidia it IS late and by the time it's here, NVidia's next GPU will be right around the corner, heck we may even have leaks for it's performance numbers by the time the 300x series becomes available.

It being an awesome product when it finally is released would be damage limitation, not damage elimination.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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It really doesn't matter "why" it's late. Besides the fact that it would be complete guess work to try and figure out "why" The fact of the matter is that compared to NVidia it IS late and by the time it's here, NVidia's next GPU will be right around the corner, heck we may even have leaks for it's performance numbers by the time the 300x series becomes available.

It being an awesome product when it finally is released would be damage limitation, not damage elimination.

So you would suggest they released a new card Q1 that didn't have their latest tech in it rather than wait until Q2? You're being short sighted, I think.
 

2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
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So you would suggest they released a new card Q1 that didn't have their latest tech in it rather than wait until Q2? You're being short sighted, I think.

What you think is not relevant. You're speculating, you don't know why it's late. More importantly, it doesn't matter why it's late. Whatever the reason, it's not a good thing. Having a crap product that's on time isn't a good thing either.

What should have happened is having a competitive product on the market that isn't half a generation late. Even better would be a superior product on the market that isn't half a generation late.

Anything less is damage limitation at that point. Again, "why" is not relevant to what I'm saying. I know I keep repeating this, but that's only because you keep ignoring it.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
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Would it be better for them to have released something and 6 months later have a far superior product available?

Imho, yes. Around summer of 2014, if you told me AMD won't have anything to launch from July 1, 2014 to July 1, 2015, I would have said OK then do a re-spin of R9 290, add 10-15% higher clocks, do a transistor level improvement (ala GTX480 --> GTX580), maybe add an AIO CLC and relaunch a 10-15% faster, cooler and quieter reference R9 295XT PE with performance near GTX980 for $429, and add an after-maret cooler/AIO on the 290 with 5% higher clocks and sell it for $329. It would have been a lot easier to sell a card that uses more energy but it's as fast as a 970/980 than the position R9 290/290X are in now where out of the box they are slower and use more energy than the 970/980. Secondly, it would have allowed AMD to turn the image of the R9 290 series around because all new launch reviews would have painted the R9 295X and 295XT PE as cool and quiet! This is crucial because today even a $250 R9 290 with 50-60% more performance than a 960 can't sell. That's shocking and never in the 15 years of GPU history have I seen something like this.

Also, with a new card launch in the fall of 2014, AMD could have added HDMI 2.0, new H.264 hardware decoder, etc. These basic check-mark features would have at least put them on equal footing with Maxwell. Either R9 300 series will completely pummel R9 200 series into the ground, or AMD has overstretched its resources too much and couldn't develop a brand new series in time.

And the question of a looming Pascal in 2016 still rings true with R300's late release (we don't know the exact date of its release, so how are you coming up with 1 yr after R300?).

NV releases brand new architectures roughly every 2-2.5 years. This has been consistent since GTX200 series. You can look it up yourself. In fact, it took NV 3 years to go from GTX580 to 780Ti and 2.5 years to go from GTX680 to its 980 successor. Therefore, I would say we won't see Pascal's mid-range GP204 until Q3-Q4 2016. We might see some lower end card like 750Ti successor by Q2 2016 though. NV likes to maintain a 2 year+ cadence between its flagship cards (GK100/110 --> GM200). They are almost doing a tick-tock of sorts where they bifurcate a generation into 2 halves. That have followed this strategy with Kepler and Maxwell and there is little reason to indicate Pascal won't be the same execution.

Nobody wants an old 28nm product when the new hotness from NVIDIA is around the corner.

Is this a serious statement? NV just launched the Titan X, and no other GM200 series product. What exactly will NV have "around the corner" on 14nm/16nm by August 2015? You honestly think NV will overcome the laws of physics and its historical trends and succeed GM200 in 12 months with a Big Daddy Pascal? It took them 3 years to do that with Fermi to Kepler and it's already been more than 2 years since 780 came out and NV still hasn't even released consumer GM200 cards. Therefore, it's only logical to assume that GP200 or w/e they call the flagship isn't going to be out until Q1-Q2 2017. That gives R9 300 series plenty of time to make a dent.

As for the bold part, nobody is talking about the notebook market because AMD has been absent for years and that isn't the reason for recent shifts in market share.

You are not following the discussion closely enough. If 100 AMD cards are sold in Q3 2014, and NV sells 200 cards, the market share for that quarter is 66% NV, 33% AMD. Then in Q4 2014, NV sells 250 cards, AMD sells 90 cards, the market share for that quarter becomes 26% AMD, 74% NV. You are now going to say that AMD only has 26% overall market share in the industry - this is incorrect. The overall market share for that 2H of the year is actually (100+90) / (200+250+100+90) = 30%. Therefore, by you only looking at quarterly market share numbers, you are ignoring millions of AMD (and NV) customers who haven't upgraded. That means if AMD were to get R9 300 series notebook design wins, its market share will go up no matter what NV does.

If you ship 0 product and next quarter you ship 100 units, your market share goes up automatically. Since the GPU market fluctuates between 14-17 million units a quarter, if it was NV that gained market share at AMD's expense, the overall market would have remained at 14-17 million -- it isn't. It has fallen sharply to just 11.5-12.5 million while the number of units NV sells is basically flat. This is not the same if NV took over AMD's OEM design wins because if it did, the overall GPU market would continue to be 14-17 million units sold a quarter. You keep ignoring this.

Your argument that Windows 10 + Skylake will somehow move R300 top end GPUs doesn't make sense as you pointed out, the notebook market has been growing quite big and if anything, that will benefit NVIDIA more than AMD.

I specifically outlined all 4 market segments, not just the top end. If R9 300 series is competitive and can get notebook design wins, it'll gain market share against NV. If what you said is true, AMD would never be able to recover market share EVER but it has done so many times before. Most people in this thread and online are ready to burry AMD but until we see how good (or bad) R9 300 series is, this type of thinking is premature and has no evidence to support it. Last time AMD was bombing with 2900 and 3800 series and 4800 series made a huge mark.

What you think is not relevant. You're speculating, you don't know why it's late. More importantly, it doesn't matter why it's late. Whatever the reason, it's not a good thing. Having a crap product that's on time isn't a good thing either.

When the consumers in the market keep blaming AMD for being late, having inferior products but they have bought NV for 5, 10, 15 years in a row, where is the firm supposed to get free cash flows to invest into future products? I love it how consumers who keep talking smack about AMD the most are NV owners who haven't purchased an AMD card since the ATI buyout. Profits and R&D investments don't just come from thin air. The PC gaming community proved 100% their bias because they never supported AMD during perf/watt days, during price/perf days nor during AMD's leadership days (5870/ 7970Ghz). In fact, even during the mining craze when AMD cards made $ which made them free (which means one could have built multiple rigs with HD4870->R9 290 and used the money earned to buy countless NV cards), 95% of the PC market ignored it too. So really, it's ultimately the loyal NV consumer that put AMD in the position the are in today. That core 50% market share group that always buys NV has remained. What happened are the brand agnostic PC gamers who stopped waiting for AMD and bought NV. But it doesn't change the fact that even during the generations when AMD was the clear choice based on all the metrics that are used to hype up Maxwell today, AMD never even managed to get > 50% market share.

As an example, 970 is hyped as some spectacular card but when HD5850 smashed everything NV had to offer in that price range, and still pummeled GTX460 in perf/watt 9 months later, what happened? NV gained market share with Fermi. Oops. So really the key themes that have emerged since 2008 when HD4000 series launched is that the NV's loyal customer base will use any metric possible to justify sticking to NV and over the years that metric has changed countless times. During the Titan days, DP was key, now it's irrelevant. During GTX200/Fermi days, perf/watt was irrelevant, now it's THE key metric. Also, even on this forum people make uninformed statements like Maxwell is the greatest overclocking GPU generation of all time but HD7950 overclocked on air from 800mhz to 1.25Ghz-- not a single Maxwell card can accomplish this. Every generation all key metrics where AMD leads have been downplayed and there is no doubt in my mind that the average PC gamer buys NV first because of his experience with NV for years/decades and because of the brand name/popularity.

I am not trying to pick on you but just focusing on your cards, HD7970Ghz CF smashes 680 2GB SLI into the ground in modern games. Like it's not even close, but did you buy 7970Ghz CF that paid for itself? No, you didn't. So how is AMD supposed to get money to develop future generations when people keep buying inferior products?

In modern games today, HD7970Ghz CF are consistently 20-30% faster than a GTX690, while a single 7970Ghz beats 680 by 15-20% constantly. All of this has been ignored by NV users who keep focusing on Maxwell but they never want to talk about Kepler flopping, or GTX570/580 running out of VRAM, etc.

Looking at the performance in GTA V, ARES II 7970Ghz CF is getting 57 fps but a 690 only manages 38 fps. That's mind-blowing, like a generation apart and yet most people on this forum chose 680 SLI/690 over 7970Ghz CF and now they will never admit that HD7000 series was way better than GK204. This type of brand loyal following is killing AMD's chances long-term even when they deliver superior products. Once again, we see R9 295X2 smashing 980 into the ground and today these 2 cards cost nearly the same......

 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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What you think is not relevant. You're speculating, you don't know why it's late. More importantly, it doesn't matter why it's late. Whatever the reason, it's not a good thing. Having a crap product that's on time isn't a good thing either.

What should have happened is having a competitive product on the market that isn't half a generation late. Even better would be a superior product on the market that isn't half a generation late.

Anything less is damage limitation at that point. Again, "why" is not relevant to what I'm saying. I know I keep repeating this, but that's only because you keep ignoring it.

With HBM and adaptive sync before nVidia has it, they won't be a 1/2 generation behind. They'll be ahead. Who knows what else GCN1.3 will bring. Higher efficiency? More performance? We'll have to wait and see.

Lighten up. What I think is as relevant as what you think and I'm not ignoring anything.
 

2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
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With HBM and adaptive sync before nVidia has it, they won't be a 1/2 generation behind. They'll be ahead. Who knows what else GCN1.3 will bring. Higher efficiency? More performance? We'll have to wait and see.

Lighten up. What I think is as relevant as what you think and I'm not ignoring anything.

It being late isn't a matter of opinion. Their timing is a half generation behind. The performance figures aren't even worth talking about since it's pure speculation at this point. Though I would certainly hope it will have better numbers than an NVidia GPU that's about to be replaced.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,727
1,342
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Given trends and no new products, it's not hard to assume 80% share for NVIDIA at this point or even more since Q4 2014.

Or it could level out, or it could be somewhere between 75% and 80%, we don't know yet.


As for what I said, how is that vague? You assumed that since AMD had a slightly larger overall graphics market share in the past, that somehow this would shift in their favor again despite market trends.

No, that's a straw man. I only pointed out that there's likely a larger current install base of AMD graphics hardware, hence ocre's argument that reports of Nvidia driver issues need to be some higher multiple of reports of AMD driver issues for the two to be equivalent is completely without merit (that said, the original argument that you can determine how bad a companies drivers are by looking at their support forum is also poor for other reasons). Unlike some, I haven't made any shaky predictions about what the future might hold
 
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2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
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When the consumers in the market keep blaming AMD for being late, having inferior products but they have bought NV for 5, 10, 15 years in a row, where is the firm supposed to get free cash flows to invest into future products? I love it how consumers who keep talking smack about AMD the most are NV owners who haven't purchased an AMD card since the ATI buyout. Profits and R&D investments don't just come from thin air. The PC gaming community proved 100% their bias because they never supported AMD during perf/watt days, during price/perf days nor during AMD's leadership days (5870/ 7970Ghz). In fact, even during the mining craze when AMD cards made $ which made them free (which means one could have built multiple rigs with HD4870->R9 290 and used the money earned to buy countless NV cards), 95% of the PC market ignored it too. So really, it's ultimately the loyal NV consumer that put AMD in the position the are in today. That core 50% market share group that always buys NV has remained. What happened are the brand agnostic PC gamers who stopped waiting for AMD and bought NV. But it doesn't change the fact that even during the generations when AMD was the clear choice based on all the metrics that are used to hype up Maxwell today, AMD never even managed to get > 50% market share.

AMD fans who make up their own reality isn't helping AMD either. I have two gaming systems, 680's in one and a 7970 in another. I'm criticizing AMD because it's deserved. Just like NVidia deserves criticism for making their customers pay $1000 USD if they want a card that has more than 4GB of VRAM. This thread is about AMD, so that's where my criticism is going.

I don't have brand loyalty, I'll buy what suits me and my budget best. I'll criticize both equally too. There are plenty of people who would love to buy a 390x but can't because it doesn't exist.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,727
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1 to 4 ratio, my bad

Close, but not quite. 1 to 3.16ish.

But anyway, there is no denying that nvidia has a much larger install base. APUs are irrelevant. It isn't complex nor worth arguing about.

Don't be absurd. APUs use the same graphics drivers that dGPUs do.

I am just saying that obviously you would expect far more nvidia dgpu complaints and issues across every tech forum.

Sure, because they've shipped more dGPUs, but that's a dumb distinction. In terms of complaints about graphics drivers in general you'd expect them to be about the same assuming equal driver quality. Larger install base for AMD, but likelier to be used in more graphics intensive tasks (which are in turn a bit more likely to generate issues) on the Nvidia side of the spectrum.

So it is pretty meaningless when a person post nvidia website as proof that nvidia has all these issues.

It is pretty meaningless, but not because of anything you've said
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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It being late isn't a matter of opinion. Their timing is a half generation behind. The performance figures aren't even worth talking about since it's pure speculation at this point. Though I would certainly hope it will have better numbers than an NVidia GPU that's about to be replaced.

You accuse me of ignoring what you said, but you respond without addressing anything I said? Considering that the 390 is going to incorporate tech that nVidia isn't going to have until their next generation, I think you are using them being late to proclaim they are behind. It's not the same thing. In reality nVidia is consistently behind AMD. They are usually behind on new nodes, latest VRAM, API support, etc...

Would it have been better if the 300 series was already launched? Sure. But you have to assume the tech it's going to incorporate would have been available sooner for that to have happened.

Has AMD handled the market the last 3 years or so as well as nVidia? No, obviously. Is the CEO that mishandled everything over that time still there? No. Let's just hope that Su is markedly better. She couldn't possibly be worse, IMO. Read was a complete amateur compared to Jen-Hsun and got eaten up alive.
 

2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
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You accuse me of ignoring what you said, but you respond without addressing anything I said? Considering that the 390 is going to incorporate tech that nVidia isn't going to have until their next generation, I think you are using them being late to proclaim they are behind. It's not the same thing. In reality nVidia is consistently behind AMD. They are usually behind on new nodes, latest VRAM, API support, etc...

Would it have been better if the 300 series was already launched? Sure. But you have to assume the tech it's going to incorporate would have been available sooner for that to have happened.

Has AMD handled the market the last 3 years or so as well as nVidia? No, obviously. Is the CEO that mishandled everything over that time still there? No. Let's just hope that Su is markedly better. She couldn't possibly be worse, IMO. Read was a complete amateur compared to Jen-Hsun and got eaten up alive.

I responded directly to what you said. In what world does responding directly equate to ignoring? You mentioned performance, I replied saying you don't know what the performance is going to be. I further elaborated stating that I would hope it would be better than what's currently available. Get over the fact that someone is criticizing your brand of choice, and you'll see that you were responded to about as directly as possible.

I also responded to what would be "better" in terms of timing. I said neither of the scenario you presented is a good thing and further elaborated on what would have been a good thing.

So yes, I'm accursing you of ignoring what I said. I'm now accusing you of ignoring the fact I responded to your post... Which ironically enough, is the same thing as ignoring what I'm saying... In essence, nothing has changed here.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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I responded directly to what you said. In what world does responding directly equate to ignoring? You mentioned performance, I replied saying you don't know what the performance is going to be. I further elaborated stating that I would hope it would be better than what's currently available. Get over the fact that someone is criticizing your brand of choice, and you'll see that you were responded to about as directly as possible.

I also responded to what would be "better" in terms of timing. I said neither of the scenario you presented is a good thing and further elaborated on what would have been a good thing.

So yes, I'm accursing you of ignoring what I said. I'm now accusing you of ignoring the fact I responded to your post... Which ironically enough, is the same thing as ignoring what I'm saying... In essence, nothing has changed here.

Well, now you've earned being ignored. Cheers.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
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It being late isn't a matter of opinion. Their timing is a half generation behind.

Yes, and no. I don't consider 980 a true flagship and the $1K Titan X is a pure marketing money grab for gaming because it's more or less a given that NV held back maximum performance since they didn't allow EVGA Classified and MSI Lightning or Asus Matrix designs on this GM200 iteration. That leaves us with what exactly?

If you want to fairly criticize NV and AMD, neither has shown up this gen. AMD is selling old tech while NV is milking us with mid-range chips at $500+ and a niche high-end card at $1K. It just seems most PC gamers are either too young to follow the GPU industry so they think $550 for a mid-range chip is A-OK or they have closed a blind eye to the business practices in the GPU industry. See, I have no problem paying high prices for products that are high quality and last. Shure SE846 that beat 97% of all in-ear monitors and cost $999 that will last 5-7 years and can be resold for $500 in 5 years - bargain. $1000 flagship GPU which offers the performance one can have in a $350 next gen card in 2 years time sounds pretty bad. It gets far worse if you are the SLI/CF user. For $3000, I can have one of the world's best headphones and it'll remain that way for 5+ years with incredible resale value -- and everyone in the family can enjoy this product. $2000 Titan Xs will be worth $400 in 5 years. I bet in 6 months, there will be AMD and NV cards that will provide 90-95% of Titan X's performance for $200-300 less. It seems the cost of high-end PC gaming has skyrockets since 2012 but the quality of PC games hasn't. Can you think of 1 truly next generation PC games since Crysis 3 and Ryse Son of Rome? I can't.

Hence my point that this is THE most disappointing GPU generation in a long time. It's so bad in fact, even the 5800 Ultra was more exciting. Sure, it was a dustbuster but if you replaced the heatsink, it would destroy GeForce 4600 and it sure didn't cost $1000. Right now I would take a power hogging Fermi GTX480 generation over this efficient but horribly overpriced Maxwell one. I think NV is just riding the marketing train with the new generation of PC gamers who are just growing up and are completely clueless about GPU history.

GTX480 was $499 and it came out swinging, beating GTX280 by 51% and AMD's last gen flagship - HD4890 - by 76%. With basic overclocking, GTX480 = 580 and at that point it was 2X faster than a 4890. Today NV is asking $1000, while for 8-15% more performance in a 980, they are asking $500+. :sneaky: Where is the "in-between" card; where is a card that's 40% faster than the 780Ti for $699? Nowhere! These marketing tactics actually mean when it does come out, at $699 a GM200 6GB will seem like a "value" proposition and NV will have cemented the $699 price level as the new expected price for flagships, essentially raising the $499 price of 280, 480 and 580.

So really, this forum has bashed AMD continuously and given NV a complete pass when in reality (imo) both AMD and NV have under-delivered this generation until now (unless you think paying $1000-2000 for Titan X(s) is an acceptable entry point for ultra high-end). AMD is late, but NV is in pure milk-mode and gamers are taking it in strides! Can you imagine if someone told you during GTX560ti generation that future mid-range NV chips would cost $500-550 (680 and 980)? Most people here would have probably laughed at that notion but it has now become a reality for 2 generation in a row! That's why we really need a competitive AMD or NV will really move mid-range to $500-550 and flagships to $1000 with Pascal. Do PC gamers really want that?

In the last 12 months I've purchased > $1000 of audio products but I won't even spend $1 on a AMD/NV card(s) if this milk-fest continues. At that point I'll just wait longer to 14nm GPUs and get my money's worth because for me until GM200 and R9 390 series drop, this generation hasn't even started frankly. It's not about the money, but a matter of principle - as a consumer I feel that I have a voice and I am voting that I don't agree with the new trends in the GPU industry since Kepler launched in 2012. If most of the market is OK with paying more for mid-range and high-end GPUs, it's their free choice. However, this doesn't change the fact that 980 barely moved the GPU industry forward in 1.5 years since 290X/780Ti came out.
 
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Mar 10, 2006
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Yes, and no. I don't consider 980 a true flagship and the $1K Titan X is a pure marketing money grab. That leaves us with what exactly? If you want to fairly criticize NV and AMD, neither has shown up. AMD is selling old tech while NV is milking us with mid-range chips at $500+ and a niche high-end card at $1K.

Hence my point that this is THE most disappointing GPU generation in a long time. It's so bad in fact, even the 5800 Ultra was more exciting. Sure, it was a dustbuster but if you replaced the heatsink, it would destroy GeForce 4600 and it sure didn't cost $1000. Right now I would take a Fermi GTX480 generation over this disastrous Maxwell one. I think NV is just riding the marketing train with the new generation of PC gamers who are just growing up and are totally clueless about GPU history.

GTX480 was $499 and it came out swinging beating GTX280 by 51% and AMD's last gen flagship - HD4890 - by 76%. With basic overclocking, GTX480 = 580 and at that point it was 2X faster than a 4890. So essentially for $500 you got a card basically 50-75% faster than the last gen flagships and this approached 2X with overclocking. Today NV is asking $1000, while for 8-15% more performance in a 980, they are asking $500+. :sneaky:

So really, this forum has bashed AMD continuously and given NV a complete pass when in reality is both AMD and NV have under-delivered this generation so far (unless you think paying $2000 for dual Titan Xs is pocket change). AMD is late, but NV is in pure milk-mode. Can you imagine if someone told you during GTX560ti generation that future mid-range NV chips would cost $500-550 (680 and 980)? Most people here would have probably laughed at that notion but it's been a reality for 2 generation in a row!

In the last 12 months I've purchased > $1000 of audio products but I won't even spend $1 on a AMD/NV card(s) if this milk-fest continues. At that point I'll just wait longer to 14nm GPUs and get my money's worth because for me until GM200 and R9 390 series drop, this generation hasn't even started frankly.

A lot of people refer to the 980 as "mid-range" but it is very clearly a high-end part.
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,331
17
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When the consumers in the market keep blaming AMD for being late, having inferior products but they have bought NV for 5, 10, 15 years in a row, where is the firm supposed to get free cash flows to invest into future products? I love it how consumers who keep talking smack about AMD the most are NV owners who haven't purchased an AMD card since the ATI buyout. Profits and R&D investments don't just come from thin air. The PC gaming community proved 100% their bias because they never supported AMD during perf/watt days, during price/perf days nor during AMD's leadership days (5870/ 7970Ghz). In fact, even during the mining craze when AMD cards made $ which made them free (which means one could have built multiple rigs with HD4870->R9 290 and used the money earned to buy countless NV cards), 95% of the PC market ignored it too. So really, it's ultimately the loyal NV consumer that put AMD in the position the are in today. That core 50% market share group that always buys NV has remained. What happened are the brand agnostic PC gamers who stopped waiting for AMD and bought NV. But it doesn't change the fact that even during the generations when AMD was the clear choice based on all the metrics that are used to hype up Maxwell today, AMD never even managed to get > 50% market share.

Wait a minute, you are blaming NV fans for AMDs woes?....LOL, Problem is RS, not everyone rates perf/w or perf/$ as the best and only metric for buying GPUs....
NV has always had the features and driver team behind them, plug and go, I have never been able to say that with ATI\AMD hardware.
 

Bobisuruncle54

Senior member
Oct 19, 2011
333
0
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Wait a minute, you are blaming NV fans for AMDs woes?....LOL, Problem is RS, not everyone rates perf/w or perf/$ as the best and only metric for buying GPUs....
NV has always had the features and driver team behind them, plug and go, I have never been able to say that with ATI\AMD hardware.

If that's the case then you're doing something wrong.
 

2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
4,281
131
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Wait a minute, you are blaming NV fans for AMDs woes?....LOL, Problem is RS, not everyone rates perf/w or perf/$ as the best and only metric for buying GPUs....
NV has always had the features and driver team behind them, plug and go, I have never been able to say that with ATI\AMD hardware.

I find the comments pretty baffling as well. Blaming everyone who doesn't care to mine for AMD's failure to make a profits on GPU's.
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
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Close, but not quite. 1 to 3.16ish.



Don't be absurd. APUs use the same graphics drivers that dGPUs do.



Sure, because they've shipped more dGPUs, but that's a dumb distinction. In terms of complaints about graphics drivers in general you'd expect them to be about the same assuming equal driver quality. Larger install base for AMD, but likelier to be used in more graphics intensive tasks (which are in turn a bit more likely to generate issues) on the Nvidia side of the spectrum.



It is pretty meaningless, but not because of anything you've said

Did you miss the post on the previous page that shows clearly that nvidia is now selling more dgpus than AMD sells dgpus and gpus combined? And for a long time now AMD hasn't had the total market share lead that you seem to be thinking.

Also, this side discussion started when a person brought up specifically an AMD dgpu. And this is what we have been talking about. I have no idea why you keep bringing up APUs when the discussion started was about Bonaire vs the gtx750. We are talking about dgpus and most people who only need apu graphics performance would probably turn to intel igp if they got fed up with too many issues, not buy an nvidia dgpu.

I really don't see how you keep trying to force APUs in this discussion. At all. What the heck does AMDs next line up of dgpus have to do with APUs? No one is logging AMD apu driver issues and saying, see there AMD has so many issues. As a matter of fact, I challenge you to find a single person ever posting in video card and graphics at anandtech with apu driver issues.

I wasnt even specifically talking about driver issues anyway. It is issues with graphics cards in general. If you don't remember, you posted in response to me and keep trying to talk about something else entirely. Surely if you follow the conversation that was going on when you butted in you will see that it wasnt a conversation about AMD APUs at all.

Looking at the 2014 Q4 market share data and seeing the trend, it is not hard to imagine that the 76/24 split will be more like 80/20 today. You only have to compare AMDs q4 earnings report to their Q1 earnings report. Their discrete graphics division absolutely did not have a positive movement. If you read the transcript, specifically they tell us this division took a dive. Considering this information coming directly from AMD, i don't see how you expect an increase in marketshare from q4. Clearly its not went up. AMD pretty much confirms that the marketshare will be worse in Q4. When Jon Peddie post his data, then you might believe it yourself.

I honestly do not care to continue with this pointless, off topic discussion. Especially considering you jumped in one discussion and are trying to manipulated it into something else. And also the fact that you are continuing with your claim that amd has larger overall graphics shipments even after you were corrected on this already.
 

SimianR

Senior member
Mar 10, 2011
609
16
81
Wait a minute, you are blaming NV fans for AMDs woes?....LOL, Problem is RS, not everyone rates perf/w or perf/$ as the best and only metric for buying GPUs....
NV has always had the features and driver team behind them, plug and go, I have never been able to say that with ATI\AMD hardware.

AMD's "bad driver" rep really came from the very early ATI days (I'm talking way back, in the Rage 3D days before Radeon) and have stayed with them since then deserved or not. But it is frustrating to see people act like NVIDIA cards work flawlessly and never have driver problems of their own, I had plenty on my 8800 GT - I remember upgrading a driver to fix a problem with one game only to introduce another problem with Fallout 3 for example. It reminded me of how back in the 3dfx days people used to make fun of the fact that the Geforce 1/2 users had to install a different "detonator" beta driver for each game. Back then even NVIDIA used to be the "bad driver" company. Had a few driver issues on my Geforce 760 as well last year - but I also recognize that the drivers are never perfect on either side. I think sometimes people are a little reluctant to acknowledge that there is a bit of emotional/brand loyalty more so on the NVIDIA side these days that goes beyond the "great drivers or perf/watt" metric that people continue to push as the reasons for NVIDIA's success. NVIDIA has great marketing and good GPU's and they've really hammered their name into the minds of the general PC gaming market. It's really too bad though, because there are lots of situations where AMD cards are a great choice, especially when people have a target price in mind and don't want to have to compromise on settings as quickly as they might down the road on an NVIDIA card.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,727
1,342
136
Did you miss the post on the previous page that shows clearly that nvidia is now selling more dgpus than AMD sells dgpus and gpus combined? And for a long time now AMD hasn't had the total market share lead that you seem to be thinking.

I've already addressed this. Nvidia was a bit ahead in total shipments for 2014Q4, both were around equal in 2014Q3, and AMD was ahead from 2014Q2 basically back until they shifted their focus to APUs.


Also, this side discussion started when a person brought up specifically an AMD dgpu.

No, it takes literally seconds to follow the quotes back to this:

The GeForce official forums are not exactly lacking for threads by NV users complaining about driver problems of their own...

And this is what we have been talking about. I have no idea why you keep bringing up APUs when the discussion started was about Bonaire vs the gtx750.

Are you intentionally lying? Here's a synopsis of how this side discussion started:

Black Octogon: Nvidia forums have tons of threads complaining about driver issues.
Railven: That isn't at all a good or scientific way to determine if Nvidia has driver issues. A lot of those problems could also just as easily be user error.
You: Nvidia sells 5 times as many GPUs as AMD, so in order for Nvidia to have as many issues as AMD does we should be seeing five times the complaints.
Me: No Ocre, that's wrong on multiple levels.

...I can't believe you just made me do that.

We are talking about dgpus and most people who only need apu graphics performance would probably turn to intel igp if they got fed up with too many issues, not buy an nvidia dgpu.

We're talking about driver issues, which affect both dGPUs and APUs.

I really don't see how you keep trying to force APUs in this discussion. At all. What the heck does AMDs next line up of dgpus have to do with APUs? No one is logging AMD apu driver issues and saying, see there AMD has so many issues. As a matter of fact, I challenge you to find a single person ever posting in video card and graphics at anandtech with apu driver issues.

I doubt many who frequent this forum actually use APUs, but you can do a really quick google search and find plenty of complaints.

I wasnt even specifically talking about driver issues anyway. It is issues with graphics cards in general.

Now you're just moving the goalposts. Again, going through the quote history shows that this discussion is about driver issues. Speaking of goalpost moving, this is pretty shameless.

According to Jon Peddie, for every 1 GPU AMD sells, nvidia sells 5. The volume is massive.
1 to 4 ratio, my bad
Looking at the 2014 Q4 market share data and seeing the trend, it is not hard to imagine that the 76/24 split will be more like 80/20 today.

First you say that Nvidia outsells AMD in discreet 5:1 according to Jon Peddie. Proven wrong. Then 4:1. Still wrong. Then all the sudden it no longer matters what Jon Peddie said, because it will be 4:1 eventually. Can you not see what you're doing?

You only have to compare AMDs q4 earnings report to their Q1 earnings report. Their discrete graphics division absolutely did not have a positive movement. If you read the transcript, specifically they tell us this division took a dive.

It's entirely possible, but you're defending your new goalpost and not the original one. Your original assertion was that Jon Peddie says Nvidia is outselling AMD in discreete by 5:1 when in reality it is 3.16:1.

I honestly do not care to continue with this pointless, off topic discussion. Especially considering you jumped in one discussion and are trying to manipulated it into something else.

This entire stupid discussion should have ended when your argument was shown to be flawed, but you decided to move goalposts and engage in pretzel logic instead of admitting to it.

And also the fact that you are continuing with your claim that amd has larger overall graphics shipments even after you were corrected on this already.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never once made that claim and you know it.
 
Last edited:

at80eighty

Senior member
Jun 28, 2004
458
3
81
it's funny. I held on to Nvidia cards for the longest time simply because of the "it just plugs and plays, not like those guys" FUD I keep seeing.

turns out it is utter rubbish. since my 5750, I haven't looked back. AMD may have made a lot of miscalculations from a positioning end, but drivers has never been a problem in a long while.
 

2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
4,281
131
106
AMD drivers for a single card setup really doesn't seem any worse than NVidia these days. CF support however isn't as good as SLI support and often times proper drivers aren't available as quick as NVidia for new games. For the AMD die hards, I'm talking about driver support and how soon it's available for new games, not CF vs SLI scaling so please don't respond back with benchmarks.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
AMD's "bad driver" rep really came from the very early ATI days (I'm talking way back, in the Rage 3D days before Radeon) and have stayed with them since then deserved or not. But it is frustrating to see people act like NVIDIA cards work flawlessly and never have driver problems of their own,

For what my $0.02 are worth, AMD's bad driver rep FOR ME started with CCC, this piece of **** which needs .NET, takes a long time to load and slows things down, especially on low-end systems.

Before CCC, there was nothing to complain about ATI drivers, you used the drivers and then the tool (what was its name, ATI tool) and everything was great.

I am sure most us might also remember the time where it was generally ASSUMED (be it objectively or subjectively) that ATI's AA is better and that its Aniso at 16x had the least impact on performance compared to Nvidia's Anisotropic filtering. (Of course this was way back during DX9 times. In fact, I remember running most titles there with 4x and everything looked beautifully, THERE WAS no such thing as jaggies in games, unlike today where we have dozens of AA methods and cards way more powerful, but still jaggies, regardless..but that's another topic I guess).
 
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