AMD prices are too high

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Taking a look at the $680 - Athlon 64 4000 or $608 - Athlon 64 3800 they just cost too much. Sure the FX's can be $800+ as their slated to match up with the $900 EE's but this is crazy. I mean the 560 aka 3.6 prescott, is only $425 and matches up real well against these two.


They seem cool everywhere else matching Intel in P/P.

http://hardware.fr/articles/525/page10.html
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Intel doesn't have competing chips for those speed grades so they can charge as much as they want.

I'm happy to see AMD finally making some money. I'm amazed at how they're starting to completely dominate both the high-end and server markets in terms of performance. It's really going to start to eat away at intel's brand name. It's been years since the Athlon came out and pushed intel beyond their limits. Once AMD gets some more fabs going and ramps up production, you'll see a gradual shift in their direction in terms of market share.

They think they're intel because they've assumed intel's traditional role as market performance leader.

I've worked with XP/A64/P4 533FSB/P4 800FSB systems doing strenuous CAD work, and the A64 simply dominates. The worst of the bunch was by far the P4 533FSB. The P4 3.2C I use on my laptop at work is pretty quick but still can't hold a candle to the A64 3200+ that I did some work on.

I'm still waiting for hyperthreading to have an impact on my daily tasks. Multitasking seems slower on the P4 3.2C than on my XP system that I run from home.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
They can charge what they want right now for their high end CPUs because their competitor lacks a CPU capable of outperforming it.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,882
1,550
126
I had inserted some remark about "capital-value growth rates" from monthly AMD and Intel statistics, suggesting that AMD was capturing more "market-share" with the advent of the Athlon 64 FX55. Somebody responded that the Athlon 64 FX55 wasn't "capturing market share", because (obviously) the mainstream buyer is not going to pay the introductory price when they can find another processor for a third as much or they can simply buy an OEM computer -- which is where most of the market-share is absorbed.

But my point is that investors gravitate toward a company that has produced a "record-breaking product", because the new product -- however priced initially -- becomes a factor in expectations about the company's future and the future-value of its stock. More investors buying stock, greater "demand", the price of the stock goes up in the short-run.

Anyway, they're going to charge top dollar initially because -- as someone has already remarked -- there is no perception that Intel has a matching product to compete. That's why they "Think they are who they are" in answer to the question "Who do they think they are?". And they KNOW that there are going to be many fewer buyers at the price they're charging, but the pricing strategy attempts to recoup as much of R & D costs initially and as soon as possible. As it appears that they might be able to sell more CPU's at a lower price, they may drop that price but still try and recoup the development costs.

Once orders start streaming in from OEMs for "OEM-wrap" bulk purchases, and once those OEM computers start appearing more broadly on the open mainstream market, you will see the price come down. And of course, that will be exacerbated by any new entry by Intel that upsets the AMD applecart.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Interesting comments. One thing to keep in mind is the aggregate performance which is why I posted that link above which tabulates it for us so convienantly over all thier benchmarks. Sure AMD 64's dominate gaming, winrar and many other apps OTOH Intels Prescotts dominate some encoding and 3d applications which is why the aggregate scores are so close. Really not all *that* much performance diff to justify a $200-280 price premium. Unless 1-4% is signifigant to y'all. But you seem to imply, however small the lead is, a leads a lead, and the premium is justified. I can live with that.
 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
7,430
0
71
Originally posted by: Zebo
Interesting comments. One thing to keep in mind is the aggregate performance which is why I posted that link above which tabulates it for us so convienantly over all thier benchmarks. Sure AMD 64's dominate gaming, winrar and many other apps OTOH Intels Prescotts dominate some encoding and 3d applications which is why the aggregate scores are so close. Really not all *that* much performance diff to justify a $200-280 price premium. Unless 1-4% is signifigant to y'all. But you seem to imply, however small the lead is, a leads a lead, and the premium is justified. I can live with that.

Intel doesn't 'dominate' much of anything anymore (although they do well in the encoding apps). That link had some bizarre benchmarks on there - Matlab and Mathematica with Intel far ahead... Every other site which doesn't use these heavily biased programs seems to favour AMD a lot more.

On Anand's new review of the P4 3.8 it pretty much has the Intels winning in the encoding apps by a bit, the AMD's winning most rendering tests by a bit, and AMD absolutely thrashing Intel on gaming benchmarks.

It takes the 3.6 GHz and 3.8 Ghz to beat the 3800+ and 4000+ on pretty much everything though, and those AMD chips earn their stripes by winning their fair share of tests vs the 3.8 Ghz P4.

That french site had some strong Intel performers on there, and much less rendering/gaming benchies (although you don't really need more to get the picture for games) than most other sites.


I mean when Anand has the 3.46 GHz EE getting it's @ss handed to itself constantly by the 3800+/4000+ chips, and then this site has the 3.4 and 3.6 neck and neck wit the 3800+/4000+, I start to suspect that site.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Id like to see some OCed Prescott vs OCed A64 benches. Prescotts are hitting 4.1-4.2 nowadays and A64s are 2.5-2.7, id bet its awfully close at those speeds in everything but the 64s strongest points (gaming).
 

Dolly

Member
Nov 16, 2004
40
0
0
An A64-3000 Winchester can go up to 2500Mhz from 1800 stock so the bigger boys can go higher than that as well, but what MAD has shown the world is that the Brute force of the Intel CPUs istn the only thing needed to make a cood chip, Intel thought the Mhz is the only way to be fast and screw tha architecture bit, and have payed dearly for it IMO.

As peeps said above now with the high end A64's even the last baricade that was video encoding has fallen for Intel and seems that the A64 chips are a win-win situation for what ever your needs.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Id like to see some OCed Prescott vs OCed A64 benches. Prescotts are hitting 4.1-4.2 nowadays and A64s are 2.5-2.7, id bet its awfully close at those speeds in everything but the 64s strongest points (gaming).

You already should have, the fx55 would be a 4200+ if it were using pr numbers, and you would need a 4.1-4.2ghz p4 to compare with it.
 

berkut7

Member
Oct 29, 2004
57
0
0
They have finally figured out that it's better to be profitable than to have large market share.
 

Joerg

Member
Nov 10, 2004
178
0
0
Even though AMD isnt quite dominating in the performance department, they are dominatiing in the numbers game. Most educated consumers have slowly gained the trust of AMD and now when they see 4000+ compared to intels 3.8ghz they go Intel. And the great thing about big OEMs that sale most of these pcs is that they will charge the same for both systems simply becuase they know they can so a consumer that sees the 4000+ doesnt even know of the price difference.

As for performance i dont think AMD has really taken to to Intel yet. While im definately not an Intel fan i just cant justify seeing this as a real beat down.

As for overclocking i think that a 4.2ghz intel vs a 2.6ghz AMD would be a very nice batter but if i remember right the AMDs seem to scale better on the performance front as the clock goes up.

But yes AMD can charge and has every right to charge those crazy prices and those prices only add to the value of the AMD brand name. Its not like any of us consider those processors for out next systems anyways well atleast not if you plan to overclock.
 

frootbooter

Member
Dec 3, 2004
63
0
0
Originally posted by: Dolly
An A64-3000 Winchester can go up to 2500Mhz from 1800 stock so the bigger boys can go higher than that as well
Can they?

It only makes sense that chips with the same process from the same fab will top out around the same speed. After all, most athlon xp mobiles top out around 2.6ghz with air cooling, regardless of their rating, and most northwoods couldn't get much past 3.4ghz. The fact that most of the 90 (and even 130) nm chips are topping out around 2.5 ghz gives good reason for low availability/high price of 2.6ghz parts (the fx-55).

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,232
5,807
126
Even though AMD has the highest priced Desktop CPUs these days, they are still cheaper than what Intel would have sold them for not too long ago.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Even though AMD has the highest priced Desktop CPUs these days, they are still cheaper than what Intel would have sold them for not too long ago.

Yes, but do you not remember the $120 Athlon 1400mhz a few years back? Top of the line performance for next to nothing. $800 is quite the jump in price over a 3 year period.

I'm disappointed in the CPU industry over the past year. Prices have gone up, and performance has stagnated. They should have been able to anticipate hitting the wall with single-cored processors a long time ago using lab simulations and powerful computer software. The whole fiasco has set the entire industry back by a year or so.
 

Joerg

Member
Nov 10, 2004
178
0
0
I dont think it has really stagnated at all. If anything AMD is far from being done with its single core processors and i dont doubt intel will get to 4.5 or so before throwing in the towel with prescott. I wouldnt be surprised to see a 4200 and 4400 in q1 of next year. The only part of the computer industry that is stagnate is intel they started the year at 3.4ghz and have sense only gone up by 400mhz and even less than that as far as performance is concerned. AMD has nearly increased its performance by a third in the last 12 monts.
 

wchou

Banned
Dec 1, 2004
1,137
0
0
Originally posted by: berkut7
They have finally figured out that it's better to be profitable than to have large market share.

Oh it'll get much higher if Intel falls over on its feet. not to mention duron and xp as well, chuckle.

 

klah

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2002
7,070
1
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Taking a look at the $680 - Athlon 64 4000 or $608 - Athlon 64 3800 they just cost too much. Sure the FX's can be $800+ as their slated to match up with the $900 EE's but this is crazy. I mean the 560 aka 3.6 prescott, is only $425 and matches up real well against these two.

3.8E is $800.
3.46EE is $1,050.


 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,882
1,550
126
I'm in a nitpicker's mood, so here goes.

Joerg and Xed wrote:
_____________________________________
" . . . If anything AMD is far from being done with its single core processors and i dont doubt intel will get to 4.5 or so before throwing in the towel with prescott. . . . "

"Erm, Intel already cancelled the 4 gig prescott =) "
_____________________________________

COMMENT: Before the 3.46EE vs. Athlon 64 FX-55 shootout, industry publications noted that both AMD and Intel were prototyping dual-core processors, to address simultaneously the issues of heat and speed. It is likely that the 3.8E (or is it EE?) will be the last in the Prescott line.

_____________________________________

berkut7 and wchou wrote:

"They have finally figured out that it's better to be profitable than to have large market share. "

"Oh it'll get much higher if Intel falls over on its feet. not to mention duron and xp as well, chuckle. "

_____________________________________

COMMENT:

First, there are several "markets". There is an "office PC" market, a "student's" market, a "home-PC" market, an industrial PC market, and a fruitcake-geek-over-clocking-obsessive-compulsive market. To address multiple markets, companies provide "product differentiation." Not only do they produce different processors at different manufacturing costs and different prices to capture shares of different markets, they try to piggy-back differentiated products onto the same manufacturing process -- thus the Gallatin core resurfacing as a Northwood production run with a disabled L3 cache.

But in the long run, it is he who captures the largest share of loyal customer base who survives. Thus, survivability trumps "profitability". If product demand is elastic, then the profits are to be had through increasing Q, quantity produced and quantity sold at the most competitive price to the largest number of customers. If product demand is inelastic, profits are to be had through restrained production and prices chosen to maximize the returns from one-time buyers.

These companies are not monopolies -- they are just dominant firms. So the "play-offs" continue. If the Athlon 64 FX-55 could find a big demand among the office-pc or home-pc market, prices would fall to some point just above average cost that would reflect recoupment of the average fixed cost of R & D and the variable cost of manufacture. But the FX-55 is not soon going to find a home among markets with this many computers or computer users. Given the number of "buyers" with a "need" for the FX-55, the company won't recoup average fixed cost and its manufacturing costs by charging Celeron prices.

Same with the Intel EE CPUs.

One more point. L2 and L3 cache memory (it IS memory, after all) -- has to use the fastest memory available, otherwise it is no good as cache memory. So when you go from 512K to 1 MB to 2 MB of cache, you increase the cost of the CPU dramatically, and further, given the number of transisters required to add that cache, manufacturing costs increase -- which is to say about the same thing.

All of these factors determine price for Intel EE and AMD-64-bit processors. With only two MAJOR competitors in the marketplace, prices are not going to be as low as with five or ten or fifteen competitors. But even so, with only two competitors in the marketplace, prices will still reflect the cost of the technology and the size of the market that demands it.

And there will be stunning developments around the corner. Too bad CPUs are not like vintage wine. They don't become more valuable with age, and a fluke of some reseller going bankrupt is not likely to result in an auction where $15 bottles ($1,000 processors) find their way to customers' hands for 99 cents ($250).
 
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