AMD Q4/2013 Desktop Roadmap

[Enigmoid]

Intel Celeron G1630 has an Recommended price of $52.00 according to Intel. Entry Level Celeron G1610 has a recommended price of $42.00.

They(AMD) targeting the entry level Celerons with those Kabinis and that's the reason they have both Ivy and ATOM based in that slide. They dont have the Haswell based Celerons because they are not released yet. Simple as that.

Amazon has the same ~$60 price for the G1630 ($57.50) as do other retailers. I'm not seeing $52 anywhere and we both know that ark intel isn't always indicative of real prices.

All I'm saying is that the CPU they used on that slide is relatively overpriced. Shave 200 mhz and you can drop down to $40; or you can jump up to a 3.0 ghz haswell pentium at the same price. Maybe pentiums are not the target market but then don't compare to a celeron that costs as much as a better performing pentium.

And the haswell igp in the pentium will probably perform as good as or better than kabini.

Yea same old story, next time Intel will address that, next gen will be faster etc etc.
Funny thing is that 28nm Kabini at 25W TDP can compete against 22nm Intel 55W TDP CPUs.

Because the CPU uses anything close to 55W?

I see 45W max system consumption and they are running this thing on an extremely oversized PSU at horrible efficiency levels. Kabini also it appears will also not require 25W.

Compete How? A 3.0 ghz pentium is going to have roughly double the IPC as a 2.0 ghz kabini. MT workloads will be close but the pentium is likely going to pull ahead (benchmarks generally show that clock for clock 4 kabini cores ~= 2 Ivy core + HT). Haswell pentium is going to significantly improve the IGP (6 to 10 EU) but neither are really going to be able to play anything but the lightest games.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Using this:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/5

And scaling up. It seems a 2Ghz Quadcore Kabini at best can be on pair with a 2.4Ghz dualcore IB. And thats when focusing on MT loads.

 

[bullzz]

@AtenRa - we can argue all day about baytrail beating kabini in CPU performance and kabini creaming baytrail in GPU performance
in the long run I expect intel to win in both. apple and qcomm are doubling graphics performance every year. and for intel to compete, they have to do exactly that. cherytrail is expected to 3x GPU performance. with the soup AMD is in right now, they need a lot of help to match silvermont CPU performance, let alone airmont/goldmont.
and if AMD doesnt do that, they will be gifting high value windows market to intel

 

[monstercameron]

@AtenRa - we can argue all day about baytrail beating kabini in CPU performance and kabini creaming baytrail in GPU performance
in the long run I expect intel to win in both. apple and qcomm are doubling graphics performance every year. and for intel to compete, they have to do exactly that. cherytrail is expected to 3x GPU performance. with the soup AMD is in right now, they need a lot of help to match silvermont CPU performance, let alone airmont/goldmont.
and if AMD doesnt do that, they will be gifting high value windows market to intel

amd still has their moar coars and graphics advantage, I dont see that changing anytime soon.

 

[mikk]

I havent seen an Intel slide compare their product to unreleased hardware. They always compare them against current hardware.

This is not the question since Intel usually compares their new products with the old one in such slides.

amd still has their moar coars and graphics advantage, I dont see that changing anytime soon.

It is changing with Cherry Trail. In the upper desktop segment expect 2015 where AMD finally loses its GPU advantage. Broadwell-K could do this already but different price segment.

 

[AtenRa]

Amazon has the same ~$60 price for the G1630 ($57.50) as do other retailers. I'm not seeing $52 anywhere and we both know that ark intel isn't always indicative of real prices.

The ARK prices indicate how Intel position their products. The differences in retail are made by each individual Shop. AMD position the Kabini against Celerons no Pentiums. Thats why the slide has the G1630 and ATOM based Celerons.
Here in this topic we are commending on the AMD slide, not about retail prices. When the Kabini will be released we can talk about retail prices.

ps: newegg has the Haswell Pentium G3220 at $69,99

And the haswell igp in the pentium will probably perform as good as or better than kabini.

Haswell Pentium will have almost the same GPU performance but those two are not directly competing against each other. Intel will release Haswell Celerons and that will be the direct competitive product. Haswell Pentiums are in a different segment.

Because the CPU uses anything close to 55W?

I see 45W max system consumption and they are running this thing on an extremely oversized PSU at horrible efficiency levels. Kabini also it appears will also not require 25W.

Im talking about TDP rating, not power usage.

Compete How? A 3.0 ghz pentium is going to have roughly double the IPC as a 2.0 ghz kabini. MT workloads will be close but the pentium is likely going to pull ahead (benchmarks generally show that clock for clock 4 kabini cores ~= 2 Ivy core + HT). Haswell pentium is going to significantly improve the IGP (6 to 10 EU) but neither are really going to be able to play anything but the lightest games.

Intel Celeron G1630 is 55W TDP. Kabini will have faster graphics, almost the same MultiThread performance and will only lag behind in Single Thread. And all of this at 25W TDP. Also, Intel Haswell Celerons will still require and use a second Chipset in the Motherboard. Kabini is a SoC, that will also reflect in the Power Usage and I believe the motherboard prices.

 

[AtenRa]

@AtenRa - we can argue all day about baytrail beating kabini in CPU performance and kabini creaming baytrail in GPU performance
in the long run I expect intel to win in both. apple and qcomm are doubling graphics performance every year. and for intel to compete, they have to do exactly that. cherytrail is expected to 3x GPU performance. with the soup AMD is in right now, they need a lot of help to match silvermont CPU performance, let alone airmont/goldmont.
and if AMD doesnt do that, they will be gifting high value windows market to intel

Do you have actual performance data of Baytrail Desktop vs Kabini Desktop ???
Also, AMD will release a faster product(Puma) later on that will compete against Cherytrail. Until then we are comparing Kabini against Baytrail and Celerons.

 

[krumme]

We have plenty data to show kabini 25w 2 ghz outrun the fastest bt sku. And thats not even considering fpu heavy scenarios where bt fall flat. Add much faster and better gfx. Its a far better product at desktop side. By a long stretch.

I can not see intels interest competing in lowest end desktop with expensive hw or broadwell variants. Why should they?

This market is probably one of the first to get to arm cores running some sort of linux variant be it android whatever. But happens for low end notebooks also.

Amd better be on arm then because its their lowend markets eroding. Intel get their shrinking profit elsewhere. (And no not from subsidized win tablets lol)

 

[Sweepr]

Using this:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6974/amd-kabini-review/5

And scaling up. It seems a 2Ghz Quadcore Kabini at best can be on pair with a 2.4Ghz dualcore IB. And thats when focusing on MT loads.

Which means 2.4-2.8GHz dual-core (no HT) Haswell Celeron will be faster in MT tasks. It will also deliver much better overall performance for entry-level desktop users (thanks to more than twice Kabini's single-thread performance).

I'm impressed at how close to A4 5000's GPU performance this 6 EUs IB Pentium is. Desktop Kabinis are clocked up to 20% higher than the A4 5000 but Haswell Celeron/Pentium has 66% more EUs than IB (10 vs 6, Gen 7.5 vs Gen 7) so it should win here too.

We have plenty data to show kabini 25w 2 ghz outrun the fastest bt sku. And thats not even considering fpu heavy scenarios where bt fall flat. Add much faster and better gfx. Its a far better product at desktop side. By a long stretch.

No we dont. Fastest Bay Trail-D right now is a 2.41GHz-2.67GHz 4C/4T chip and Intel could launch even faster parts by Q1/2014 (same 10W TDP vs Kabini's 25W TDP). Tablet-oriented Z3770 matched/beat 1.5GHz A4 5000 in many tasks (CPU-wise). And Bay Trail-D has a lot more TDP headroom than Bay Trail-T (higher clocks @ load).

 

[AtenRa]

I wouldn't compare the Mobile Α6-5000M with DDR-3L (11-11-11) to any desktop Kabini or Baytrail.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Which means 2.4-2.8GHz dual-core (no HT) Haswell Celeron will be faster in MT tasks. It will also deliver much better overall performance for entry-level desktop users (thanks to more than twice Kabini's single-thread performance).

Regular Haswell Celerons start at 2.7Ghz. And they will just run in circles around the slow Kabini. Even BT got better CPU performance than Kabini. AMD didnt even dare to pick the top BT desktop parts for the same reason, even in their selected benchmarks that favour AMD. Not to mention they "estimated" BTs performance.

I wonder if AMD gave up completely on 1M/2T parts due to their extremely poor performance. And Kabini is a hotfix attempt for that. Or simply trying to get more money for the wafer.

If anyone want Kabini TDP ranges, they can just get the Celeron T model at 2.4Ghz and still fly past the Kabini without makign huge crippling sacrifices in ST.

 

[monstercameron]

Regular Haswell Celerons start at 2.7Ghz. And they will just run in circles around the slow Kabini. Even BT got better CPU performance than Kabini. AMD didnt even dare to pick the top BT desktop parts for the same reason, even in their selected benchmarks that favour AMD. Not to mention they "estimated" BTs performance.

I wonder if AMD gave up completely on 1M/2T parts due to their extremely poor performance. And Kabini is a hotfix attempt for that. Or simply trying to get more money for the wafer.

If anyone want Kabini TDP ranges, they can just get the Celeron T model at 2.4Ghz and still fly past the Kabini without makign huge crippling sacrifices in ST.

I know it is fun to down play AMD but IDK what someone is smoking? silvermont based celeron/pentium still wont outperform top end kabini [a6-5200], and dont even get me started with the gpu advantage.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I know it is fun to down play AMD but IDK what someone is smoking? silvermont based celeron/pentium still wont outperform top end kabini [a6-5200], and dont even get me started with the gpu advantage.

Are you sure about that? Do you have any numbers to show? Even AMD didnt want to show real numbers, nor use the top BT parts.

Even the tablet CPU does quite well:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7314/intel-baytrail-preview-intel-atom-z3770-tested/2

The J2900 runs up to 2.67Ghz CPU and 898Mhz GPU.

Seems its rather people upplaying AMD...

But again, the real issue will be the Haswell Celerons that are leagues ahead.

 

[Enigmoid]

The ARK prices indicate how Intel position their products. The differences in retail are made by each individual Shop. AMD position the Kabini against Celerons no Pentiums. Thats why the slide has the G1630 and ATOM based Celerons.
Here in this topic we are commending on the AMD slide, not about retail prices. When the Kabini will be released we can talk about retail prices.

ps: newegg has the Haswell Pentium G3220 at $69,99


Haswell Pentium will have almost the same GPU performance but those two are not directly competing against each other. Intel will release Haswell Celerons and that will be the direct competitive product. Haswell Pentiums are in a different segment.

Im talking about TDP rating, not power usage.

Intel Celeron G1630 is 55W TDP. Kabini will have faster graphics, almost the same MultiThread performance and will only lag behind in Single Thread. And all of this at 25W TDP. Also, Intel Haswell Celerons will still require and use a second Chipset in the Motherboard. Kabini is a SoC, that will also reflect in the Power Usage and I believe the motherboard prices.

The only thing that matters to the end consumer is the price. AMD can position anywhere. Intel can position anywhere. But what will matter is competing products.

http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=G3220BOX&c=CJ

$60 (It was $60 on newegg when I made the link yesterday).

If kabini is sub $55 then it will not be competing with pentiums. But currently we do not know the price and amd is positioning it against a SKU with a retail price of $60.

I know it is fun to down play AMD but IDK what someone is smoking? silvermont based celeron/pentium still wont outperform top end kabini [a6-5200], and dont even get me started with the gpu advantage.

It will be close CPU wise. In the baytrail vs. Kabini benchmarks a 2.0-2.2 ghz baytrail competes against a 1.5 ghz kabini. Up the clocks on both and a 2.0 ghz kabini will compete against a 2.8 ghz baytrail. Fastest Baytrail I can find is 2.67 ghz so it will be exceedingly close. FPU or GPU tasks kabini will take the cake.

 

[Shivansps]

It says Quad core for $70 on there, meaning, one of the quads is at $70, may be the top one -or not-, meaning, the G3220 can be compared to it, at least on price.

But we dont know MB prices, i can expect the FS1B MB to be lower than $40

Still, you can not exclude the G3220 if the quad kabinis cost $70, the FS1b cpu compites with both Celerons / Pentium Haswell, and Baytrail at the same time.

 

[inf64]

G3220 is 54W TDP product. What is the max TDP for the top Kabini ?

 

[Shivansps]

G3220 is 54W TDP product. What is the max TDP for the top Kabini ?

25W all of them, but AMD compared it to a 55W G1610 and 10W Bay Trails...

 

[mikk]

They compared with a G1630. Pentium G3220 is 4€ pricier.

 

[NTMBK]

Pentium G3220 is 4€ pricier.

Woah woah. That's my budget blown right there.

 

[Shivansps]

becarefull that MBs may be really cheap, that may make some difference, if OEMs can make a AM3+ mb with NB and SB chips at $45, i could guess that a MB whiout any chip on it could be around $30 or less... the cheaper H81 is at $50

G3220 fire strike score is around 390-400.

 

[VirtualLarry]

so there is a new socket from AMD coming soon? interesting news, although being limited to just Kabini based stuff with a socket or BGA doesn't change things all that much.

This surprises me, that they wouldn't just make Kabini BGA-only. How many people out there, would want to upgrade a dual-core Kabini to a quad? Or are they expecting people to upgrade from Jaguar cores to Puma cores?

They had better hurry with releasing Kabini, lest Bay Trail variants eat all of their marketshare. Where is the quad-core Kabini Brix???

 

[avtek21]

From Sweclockers new AMD have price range of $39 to $139! That is how some people were speculating how new Steam PC with quad core Kaveri with R9 graphics can sell for $499.

 

[blackened23]

@AtenRa - we can argue all day about baytrail beating kabini in CPU performance and kabini creaming baytrail in GPU performance
in the long run I expect intel to win in both. apple and qcomm are doubling graphics performance every year. and for intel to compete, they have to do exactly that. cherytrail is expected to 3x GPU performance. with the soup AMD is in right now, they need a lot of help to match silvermont CPU performance, let alone airmont/goldmont.
and if AMD doesnt do that, they will be gifting high value windows market to intel

Intel is not, and will not be competing directly with the A7. Remember the A7 is used only on iOS devices and are thus relatively meaningless compared to the products that are used for android (ie snapdragon, tegra, etc). Intel, Qualcomm, and Nvidia cannot compete for a design win in an iOS product. Thus any mention of the A7 is ridiculous because it is a walled garden used solely for Apple products, and those products will never use an outside custom SOC.

Conversely, you have AMD on the other hand that can't compete with anything. They can't compete with an x86 product and they sure can't compete with the ARM SOC products. The Bay Trail does have better CPU performance than any ARM SOC except perhaps the custom A7, but the A7 doesn't matter since it is only for iOS. Intel is not competing for a design win in an iOS product, neither is any other ARM SOC. The graphic performance of BT could be improved and will be improved on the next iteration - but in terms of CPU performance, it is better than any ARM SOC on the market currently.

 

[AtenRa]

This surprises me, that they wouldn't just make Kabini BGA-only. How many people out there, would want to upgrade a dual-core Kabini to a quad? Or are they expecting people to upgrade from Jaguar cores to Puma cores?

They had better hurry with releasing Kabini, lest Bay Trail variants eat all of their marketshare. Where is the quad-core Kabini Brix???

The Socket Kabini will be very popular with OEMs and people that build their own systems. You will only need to purchase a single Motherboard and then install the Kabini APU of choice. With a BGA only, the OEM will have to determine what BGA Motherboard/APU combo will sell more in order to make its purchase. With the Socket Kabini all the OEM have to do is get a single Mobo for all the Kabini APUs and let the customer decide for the APU alone.
This gives you more freedom to choose the motherboard of choice with the features you want to have and use the entire line of the APUs on that specific mobo. With the BGA only setup you cannot have the same features on all APUs.
BGAs are ok for Embedded but not for consumer products/use.

 

[Sweepr]

Two new Athlon-branded systems on a chip are going to be a 5150 and a 5350, both having 4 CPU cores and 2 MB L2 cache. The Athlons integrate HD 8400 graphics unit with 128 Radeon cores, clocked at 600 MHz. The processors support DDR3-1600 memory and fit into 25 Watt thermal envelope. The 5150 runs at 1.6 GHz, and the 5350 operates at 2.05 GHz. The official prices of these SKUs are $45 and $54. According to published slides, the 5350 SoC has 14% lower PCMark8 score, and 30% higher 3DMark Firestrike score than the Pentium G2020, which costs about the same.

www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/2013121...4020_APU_desktop_Athlon_and_Sempron_SoCs.html

Just out of curiosity, here are pre-order prices for two Haswell-based Celeron CPUs:

www.shopblt.com/search/order_id=%21ORDERID%21&s_max=25&t_all=1&s_all=BX80646G18

$47 buys you a 2C/2T 2.7GHz ''Haswell'' Celeron G1820 (10 EUs @ up to 1050MHz). This model should be easily ~25% faster than the Pentium 2020 in CPU tasks and has 66% more execution units on its integrated graphics than the older Pentium 2020 (running at similar clocks).